27 replies to this topic

[Corvus Antaka]

AC 20 max range is far to generous, 810m for the ac 20 gives the ac/20 the same effect long range damage as the ac 10 whos long range is 450m.

ie ac 20 max range 810 - half that is 405, for 10 dmg at 405.

ac 10 long range is 450, max damage 10 at 450.

if the ac/20 range was cut to a max range of 400 for 0 dmg, the ac 10 would be a lot more viable gun. the ac/20 would then also be a more truly brawling weapon.

imho it should be

AC/20 range 270, Max 400m
AC/10 range 450, Max 810m
AC/5 range 750, Max 1100m
AC/2 range 1450, Max 2100m

This combined with upcomming boating changes (however those come in) might even allow for the AC 20 and 10 to take a slight recycle rate increase to make them superior as brawling guns over long range guns such as the PPC, strange that the ppc and ac/20 have the same 4 sec recycle timer in example.

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For the LBX we could see a damage increase to 1.5 per pellet, with values closer to this:

LBX 20 Ideal range (hit 1 spot only) 100m or less, 20 damage per shot, 3 second recycle, or 25 dmg per shot, 4 second cycle.

lbx 10 ideal range (hit 1 spot) 250m or less, max range 500m

lbx 5 ideal range 450m, max 750m

lbx 2 ideal range 750m, max range 1050m

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people complain over brawlers and the SRM, but the SRM is fairly solid if a little soft right now. buffing SRM is great, but the LBX 10, ac 10, and even the AC/20 in close leave a lot to be desired due to the long recycle or way to much shotgun spread/not enough damage. some tuning on inclose brawling guns to make them not only more fearsome but able to shred snipers in close is important for the brawling game to be fun.

Brawlers risk and have to overcome/take damage until they get in close, and right now brawling guns still suffer from the same cycle times as long range guns, and while they get a little extra damage, having faster cycle times would make brawling a lot more viable, exciting and fun and put snipers in much more difficult positions than right now where they share the same cycle times.

[keith]

to make your idea simple instead of triple range on acs, u want it cut down to something more reasonable. might make them useable all depends on how they have it coded. if it can be changed like that quick of if it is hard coded to be 270 is range of ac20 then = time 3 range with fall off.

[Lostdragon]

I wouldn't mess with the ranges on anything but the AC20, but these are solid ideas. I loved LBX ACs in previous MW games, they were my go to weapons. I was very sad the first time I used one in MWO.

I think another big issue is long range weapons are too good at brawling. The ERPPC and GR have no downside, they can dominate at any range and that should not be the case.

[keith]

Lostdragon, on 10 July 2013 - 07:25 AM, said:

I wouldn't mess with the ranges on anything but the AC20, but these are solid ideas. I loved LBX ACs in previous MW games, they were my go to weapons. I was very sad the first time I used one in MWO.

I think another big issue is long range weapons are too good at brawling. The ERPPC and GR have no downside, they can dominate at any range and that should not be the case.

er ppc down side is heat. pgi lowered it... guass downside is it explodes. we have that. find someone who keeps that in a side blow it off and laugh. don't say they don't have down sides they have horrible down sides. 1 pgi just took away....

[Lord of All]

I agree with AC20 adjustments but I and quite a few others use LBX with no complaints.

IF LBX gets buffed It will be the next OP weapon and then will get nerfed into oblivion in response.

[Livewyr]

2x Overrange would be sufficient.

[Orzorn]

Until the LBX hits at the diameter of a mech's silhouette only at max range (So anything less is more pinpoint), it will be bad. The issue is that the LBX fires like a shotgun when it should fire like other ACs, but use a canister round that ruptures when it detects an enemy in a certain cone and range. That way, the shotgun effect should just about always be the same at all ranges. That way, it could be dialed in to be, say, about the width of an Atlas chest at max detection range.

Either that, or take a tip from the LBX in Mechwarrior 3 and have the pellets roughly follow each other. That weapon was a beast.

Edited by Orzorn, 10 July 2013 - 07:36 AM.

[CasualCat2001]

The AC/20 already has very steep damage drop off. After graphing it, it loses to the AC/10 starting at about 580m.

I'm pretty sure you're figuring the damage drop incorrectly too. You can't just half the max range for half damage. Damage change per meter or the slope = Max damage(rise)/(max range-long range)(run)

The bigger issue to me is the delta between ERPPCs and the AC/10s. The ERPPCs being faster, doing the same or more damage out to greater range, weighing less, and taking up less crit slots without even factoring in ammo.



Obviously this doesn't factor in their refire times, this is strictly damage. I didn't include the PPC currently because I've seen mixed information on how it works under 90m. I didn't include the LBX due to pellet spread. When I tried it myself, the pellets were all shooting around a mech at its long range value.

Edited by CasualCat2001, 10 July 2013 - 07:52 AM.

[Lord of All]

Orzorn, on 10 July 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

...The issue is that the LBX fires like a shotgun when it should fire like other ACs, ..

No, Just NO.

[PanzerMagier]

Sounds like a pointless fart idea. An Arbitrary idea at best. Just like paul's idea to give ppcs an extra second of cd, making them so much more effective with gauss because they're alpha firing time is the same. The Ac's don't really need any change right now. Because game is imbalance as ******.
Once the ppc failure rain is gone, we can take another look.

[Barantor]

Lord of All, on 10 July 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

No, Just NO.

Why? There hasn't been a MW game yet that treated the LBX the way the lore explains how it works.

LBX can even fire normal AC rounds and you should be able to stagger those and canister shots in the belt/magazine.

[Lostdragon]

keith, on 10 July 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

er ppc down side is heat. pgi lowered it... guass downside is it explodes. we have that. find someone who keeps that in a side blow it off and laugh. don't say they don't have down sides they have horrible down sides. 1 pgi just took away....

Relative to brawling weapons they have little to no downside. Raising heat would help the ERPPC situation but heat matters very little due to heat sinks raising the heat cap so high and there being little reason not to run very hot.

Gauss Rifles exploding is really not that big of a downside, especially when they are in the arms. To get a GR to explode you have to strip all the armor off that location so realistically you are very close to taking out the internals and blowing out the whole section anyway. A GR explosion expedites this a bit potentially but the target is already in serious trouble anyway.

So I stand by my statement that these weapons have no downside. They are great at any range and do pinpoint front loaded damage, so why take other weapons that are harder to use, offer you less defensive opportunities, or spread damage all over the enemy?

Edited by Lostdragon, 10 July 2013 - 08:08 AM.

[CasualCat2001]

Lostdragon, on 10 July 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:

Relative to brawling weapons they have little to no downside. Raising heat would help the ERPPC situation but heat matters very little due to heat sinks raising the heat cap so high and there being little reason not to run very hot.

Gauss Rifles exploding is really not that big of a downside, especially when they are in the arms. To get a GR to explode you have to strip all the armor off that location so realisti

GR downside imho is weight/slots: a 30dmg GR alpha costs you at least 31 tons and 15 slots (with only 1 ton of ammo)
conversely a 30dmg ERPPC alpha costs you 21 tons and 9 slots

Edited by CasualCat2001, 10 July 2013 - 08:11 AM.

[Lostdragon]

CasualCat2001, on 10 July 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:

GR downside imho is weight/slots: a 30dmg GR alpha costs you at least 31 tons and 15 slots (with only 1 ton of ammo)
conversely a 30dmg ERPPC alpha costs you 21 tons and 9 slots

True to an extent but PPCs and GRs are not mutually exclusive. Many builds use them together to create a very high damage build with more manageable heat than using only PPCs. The projectile speed difference is the only thing that screws up the otherwise great synergy these weapons have and, ironically, the closer you are the less of an issue that is. A PPC and GR combo actually gets easier to use and stronger in a brawl than during a snipefest.

The fact that this combo is so good but is very heavy just pushes people into heavy and assault mechs that can easily mount 2-3 PPCs and a GR.

Edited by Lostdragon, 10 July 2013 - 08:30 AM.

[keith]

Lostdragon, on 10 July 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:

Relative to brawling weapons they have little to no downside. Raising heat would help the ERPPC situation but heat matters very little due to heat sinks raising the heat cap so high and there being little reason not to run very hot.

Gauss Rifles exploding is really not that big of a downside, especially when they are in the arms. To get a GR to explode you have to strip all the armor off that location so realistically you are very close to taking out the internals and blowing out the whole section anyway. A GR explosion expedites this a bit potentially but the target is already in serious trouble anyway.

So I stand by my statement that these weapons have no downside. They are great at any range and do pinpoint front loaded damage, so why take other weapons that are harder to use, offer you less defensive opportunities, or spread damage all over the enemy?

u mean the weps that pgi all nerfed? srms have no splash, that was half their dam. med las heat was bumped up by around 50%. ac20 is a huge wep that very mechs can't carry. add in u have to get in close. lets stop herp a derping on the forums and have some logic.

[Orzorn]

Lord of All, on 10 July 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

No, Just NO.

It would still produce a shotgun effect, but with a canister round that ensures the cone is always the same. The canister detonates when it detects a mech in its firing cone, then releases its pellets. Its still a shotgun, but it doesn't originate from the barrel, making the cone consistent at all ranges.

Think of it like a cannon that shoots shotguns that shoot pellets, as opposed to the current design that's just a shotgun.

Edited by Orzorn, 10 July 2013 - 10:06 AM.

[Lord of All]

Orzorn, on 10 July 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:

It would still produce a shotgun effect, but with a canister round that ensures the cone is always the same. The canister detonates when it detects a mech in its firing cone, then releases its pellets. Its still a shotgun, but it doesn't originate from the barrel, making the cone consistent at all ranges.

Think of it like a cannon that shoots shotguns that shoot pellets, as opposed to the current design that's just a shotgun.

I understand, I used to load "Cluster Bombs". I just like the current mechanic and use LBX 99.9% of the time.

[Jonny Taco]

lbx solution is simple... No need for silly canister round nonsense... Just tighten the spread by a small amount and up the dmg of the pellets...

Problem solved, next!

[LegoPirate]

CasualCat2001, on 10 July 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

The AC/20 already has very steep damage drop off. After graphing it, it loses to the AC/10 starting at about 580m.

I'm pretty sure you're figuring the damage drop incorrectly too. You can't just half the max range for half damage. Damage change per meter or the slope = Max damage(rise)/(max range-long range)(run)

The bigger issue to me is the delta between ERPPCs and the AC/10s. The ERPPCs being faster, doing the same or more damage out to greater range, weighing less, and taking up less crit slots without even factoring in ammo.



Obviously this doesn't factor in their refire times, this is strictly damage. I didn't include the PPC currently because I've seen mixed information on how it works under 90m. I didn't include the LBX due to pellet spread. When I tried it myself, the pellets were all shooting around a mech at its long range value.

first, this graph goes from 0-300, completely skipping the 270 meters where ac20 does the most damage. second, most engagements occur from under 600 meters, where the ac10 just barely begins to do more damage then the ac20. given that the ac20 only weighs 4-5 more tons (with ammo), it becomes pretty obvious why the ac10 is completely overshadowed by the 20.

that, and ERPPCS/PPCS need a heat increase to balance them out.

[Corvus Antaka]

CasualCat2001, on 10 July 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

The AC/20 already has very steep damage drop off. After graphing it, it loses to the AC/10 starting at about 580m.

I'm pretty sure you're figuring the damage drop incorrectly too. You can't just half the max range for half damage. Damage change per meter or the slope = Max damage(rise)/(max range-long range)(run)

The bigger issue to me is the delta between ERPPCs and the AC/10s. The ERPPCs being faster, doing the same or more damage out to greater range, weighing less, and taking up less crit slots without even factoring in ammo.

good points here. The AC/20 still has way to far of a max range and damage output. obviously numbers are not firm, just a general guide, the core point is that we see a real lack of tactics and ranges in the LBX/AC fields in part due to the long range of the ac/20. the ac/20 could have a max range of 270 and still be just fine, it's a brawling gun, and the maps arent exactly huge with 1 exception.