78 replies to this topic

[Nubsternator]

Fulcrom Kerensky, on 14 July 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

PPC's have a minimum range (90 meters) which is a downside. ERPPC's have higher heat, the most I would say to do to ERPPC's would to be add a little more heat. Honestly the knee jerk reactions and glossing over facts is just absurd.

PPCs still do damage inside 90m and the extra heat on ERs isn't enough to matter. The only time the heat becomes a liability is in the crater in Caustic Valley.

[Fulcrom Kerensky]

Nubsternator, on 14 July 2013 - 06:17 PM, said:

PPCs still do damage inside 90m and the extra heat on ERs isn't enough to matter. The only time the heat becomes a liability is in the crater in Caustic Valley.

Yes it is like hitting the other mech with a nerf bat. It takes forever to kill someone like that when their up close and personal.

[Nubsternator]

Fulcrom Kerensky, on 14 July 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:

Yes it is like hitting the other mech with a nerf bat. It takes forever to kill someone like that when their up close and personal.

But minimum range should mean 0 DAMAGE below this range, not "I can still kill you here, too"

[Conraire]

Fulcrom Kerensky, on 14 July 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

PPC's have a minimum range (90 meters) which is a downside. ERPPC's have higher heat, the most I would say to do to ERPPC's would to be add a little more heat. Honestly the knee jerk reactions and glossing over facts is just absurd.

Actually, if done right, real world things could be applied to a game with giant walking mechanical robots. For example, overheating your mech. One penalty for example the movement penalty could be caused by the heat causing the leg actuators start to get hot and break down. Then the to hit or accuracy penalty, being that the bearings or magnets that operated the torso joints, and arm actuators only operate well below a certain temperature. Making your mechs parts turn or move slower, etc, thus making it harder to keep a target aimed. Not to mention the hotter the mech gets, the wider the crosshair and arm circle should be. Least that was my explanation for why you had accuracy and movement penalties for when I was GMing new players.

Nubsternator, on 14 July 2013 - 06:25 PM, said:

But minimum range should mean 0 DAMAGE below this range, not "I can still kill you here, too"

Actually gauss were suppose to have a minimum range as well. Where they wouldn't fire if the target was below 2 hexes away. Or if they did fire they dmged both mechs.

[Nubsternator]

Conraire, on 14 July 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:

Actually gauss were suppose to have a minimum range as well. Where they wouldn't fire if the target was below 2 hexes away. Or if they did fire they dmged both mechs.

Exactly what needs to happen. Every weapon needs a counterpoint to it, some reason that holds it back, something that pilots need to remember the times it WON'T work. For now, exploding Gauss Rifles make MGs almost maybe worth it to bring. A min range would help keep a leash on it, too.

[Star Colonel Mustard Kerensky]

Conraire, on 14 July 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:

Actually gauss were suppose to have a minimum range as well. Where they wouldn't fire if the target was below 2 hexes away. Or if they did fire they dmged both mechs.

Wrong, gauss took a hit penalty below two hexes. Damage remained unchanged.

[Funckadelic Mayhem]

The funny thing about PPC is you stand far back and watch. The PPC will actually show up first visually at the target then the animation will follow back to the mech shooting. Looks like magic and trickery.

[Kyzar Kon]

Nubsternator, on 14 July 2013 - 06:25 PM, said:

But minimum range should mean 0 DAMAGE below this range, not "I can still kill you here, too"

Actually I wouldn't mind if they damaged the firing mech or didnt fire at all.

"PPCs are equipped with a Field Inhibitor to prevent feedback which could damage the firing unit's electronic systems.^[6] This inhibitor degrades the performance of the weapon at close ranges of less than 90 meters. Particularly daring warriors have been known to disengage the inhibitor and risk damage to their own machine when a target is at close range."-http://www.sarna.net/wiki/PPC

ERPPC should have a longer cooldown than PPC to make it a viable choice.

There needs to be some method from preventing rediculous alpha strikes. PGI needs to implement a system that rewards players to fire weapon groups a sucession rather than alpha striking. I want to try their system before i knock it, but I fear the bonus heat with just be a minor problem Cheese builders have to deal with.

With the smaller weapons ineffectiveness light and medium mechs suffer. The lights though at least have thier speed and scale to still find a niche.

Edited by Kaiser R Metzger, 14 July 2013 - 10:03 PM.

[Koniving]

FupDup, on 13 July 2013 - 09:32 PM, said:

Funny facts.

Normally I'd rather argue with you rather than agree with you, but you deserve that like. That is the funniest, yet truest post I've read in quite some time.

[Elizander]

Sable, on 13 July 2013 - 08:27 PM, said:

Title says it all, can we slow down the projectile speed on PPCs already. I'm sooooo sick of being instant cored from 1000m. If they were as slow as ac20s they'd be much harder to hit with at such extreme ranges. They are the easy button right now. I don't have a problem with their damage or heat but they should be harder to use.

The new "heat scale" isn't going to cut it completely either, they are just too good.

I completely agree. I do not mind ER PPCs remaining at 2000 m/s because good luck carrying 4-6 of those and it's a good tradeoff for the heat. The regular PPCs should be slowed down to 1600 m/s or less though keep it slightly above the Gauss Rifle.

They are just too easy to hit with. People can hit with Gauss Rifles so lowering regular PPC projectile speed won't cause Armageddon.

[Kmieciu]

Fulcrom Kerensky, on 14 July 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

I believe at 1000m erppc does 4 damage.

How about using Math?


ERPPC does 10*{1-[(1000-810)/(1620-810)]} = 7.65 damage @ 1000 meters
Gauss does 15*{1-[(1000-660)/(1980-660)]} = 11.1 damage @ 1000 meters

[ShinVector]

xRatas, on 14 July 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

Not in "many". It was that in MW2. And it was useless in that game. I'd rather have useful PPCs in this game. Original MW had them instantly hitting, MW4 was quite fast travelling, and I seem to have forgotten their speed in MW3. Certainly not slow balls though, that I'm sure.

Edit: quick youtube checks shows MW3 having almost instantly hitting PPCs. Nothing less would have not been good for microprose though, they used to be quite serious on simulations back then.

Hey..... But recall loving the BFG style PPCs of MW2..
Yeah.. Where is the EMP buff that was be added.
They also should have the huge blue splash added as well. (LOL..)

Edited by ShinVector, 15 July 2013 - 01:20 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

I used to work with particle accelerators. Guess how fast those "supercharged particles" traveled?

Real life is irrelevant to a game. If we applied real life logic to the game then walking robots would never be used in a military application because their upright profiles make them considerably easier to hit with weapons than a hull down tank. That said, if PPCs need to be slowed down for balance reasons, than by all means slow them down. PPC projectile speed should be like 1200 at most.

Edited by Khobai, 15 July 2013 - 02:57 AM.

[Mystere]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 14 July 2013 - 02:54 PM, said:

I'm the governor of New York and I dont believe you

Andrew, how many times do Mike and I have to tell you to just stick to politics? STEM just isn't your thing.

[Mystere]

Khobai, on 15 July 2013 - 02:55 AM, said:

Real life is irrelevant to a game. If we applied real life logic to the game then walking robots would never be used in a military application because their upright profiles make them considerably easier to hit with weapons than a hull down tank.

Then people should probably stop clamoring for MWO to be a "simulator" then, with all the "bad" science going on. Besides, slowly moving charged particle beams just break my "immersion". ( - sorry, I just couldn't help myself)

As for the unsuitability of Mechs in military applications, I'd agree with you when Mechs such as the Atlas are concerned. But, I could imagine a large swarm of Spiders redefining what "shock and awe" means.

Khobai, on 15 July 2013 - 02:55 AM, said:

That said, if PPCs need to be slowed down for balance reasons, than by all means slow them down. PPC projectile speed should be like 1200 at most.

Increasing heat is my preferred solution.

[Skyfaller]

FupDup, on 13 July 2013 - 09:32 PM, said:

Seeing how this game takes place many centuries later and is riddled from head-to-toe with unrealistic elements, I'd say that no it doesn't really count. If you're looking for a game that adheres to physics/realism/etc., stay away from Battletech.

Regardless of BT discrepancy with reality, a PPC still travels at or near at light speed.

Quote

If you feel the current PPC speed is fine, use arguments based in gameplay effects instead of physics. You'd probably get more realism out of Pacman than this game.

True. But the thing remains that the PPC is deadly not because of its travel speed nor its damage. Its deadly because too many of them can be fired at once, with pinpoint accuracy and the heat mechanics enable multiple such salvos.

The heat nerf that is coming may alleviate some but probably not all. I would still Quad-PPC if it meant just one shot.

PPC heat needs to be returned to 10 heat and the DHS need to stop giving engine-based HS bonus of 2.0. Thats the whole gist of it.

[Orzorn]

Skyfaller, on 15 July 2013 - 06:19 AM, said:

and the DHS need to stop giving engine-based HS bonus of 2.0. Thats the whole gist of it.

I was thinking of it the other way around. DHS give +2 to the heat cap currently (singles +1). Remove that and make the heat cap a static 30 (as it was in the TT, by the way). Then give DHS 2.0 sinking power across the board.

Return PPC to 10 heat, and ERPPC to 15.

This system is nice because it means there is a maximum that ALL mechs are stuck to with their alpha strikes. No mech can fire more than 3 PPCs at once. Not a single one.

A 4 PPC Stalker with 20 DHS could fire 3 PPCs, then wait 7.5 seconds (20 DHS = 40 heat in 10 = 4 heat per second. 4 * 7.5 = 30) to be free of heat. Alternatively, it could fire 3 PPCs, then wait 2.5 seconds and fire its fourth.

So that significantly slowers that mech's alpha capability down. To fire all 4, it needs to wait 2.5 between shots. To fire 3 constantly, it has to wait 7.5 between shots.

But how does this system affect smaller mechs, like, say a Jenner F? Lets take a Jenner F with 6 MLAS and 14 DHS. 6 MLAS generates 24 heat per alpha strike, so only 6 away from the heat cap. Ouch. With 14 DHS, the Jenner would dump 2.8 heat per second. After all the MLAS recycled, 3 seconds worth of recycle would take the Jenner down to 15.6 heat, or enough heat to fire 3 MLAS if it wanted. In total, though, to dump 6 MLAS worth of heat it would take 8.5 seconds. Under the current system, a 14 DHS Jenner dumps 2.56 worth of heat, so we can see it only gained 0.24 heat dumped per second. This obviously slows down this mechs killing power, then again, so was the power of the Stalker reduced.

I'd like anybody's feedback on this, really.

Edit: Just for fun, lets take a look at a Hunchback 4G.

With 3 MLAS and an AC/2 with 12 DHS, the mech dumps 24 heat in 10 seconds, or 2.4 heat per second. That means one AC/20 shot can have its heat dumped in 2.5 seconds. That's nothing unique, as that can happen in the current system as well. Firing the 3 MLAS and 1 AC/20 will generate 18 heat. It would take 7.5 seconds to dump all of that heat, same as the stalker for 3 PPCs. So a Hunchback with an alpha of 35 damage dumps its heat in the same time as a Stalker with an alpha of 30. That's a good thing.

To fire continuously, the Hunchback would have to wait for 2.5 seconds after its first alpha, then firing would bring it to 30 heat. After that, it would have to wait for the 7.5 seconds. Keep in mind that during all of this, the Hunchback could (As long as it had 24 or less heat) always fire the AC/20 and not worry about overheating if it just kept firing only that weapon.

Edited by Orzorn, 15 July 2013 - 09:34 AM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Orzorn, on 15 July 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

I was thinking of it the other way around. DHS give +2 to the heat cap currently (singles +1). Remove that and make the heat cap a static 30 (as it was in the TT, by the way). Then give DHS 2.0 sinking power across the board.

Return PPC to 10 heat, and ERPPC to 15.

This system is nice because it means there is a maximum that ALL mechs are stuck to with their alpha strikes. No mech can fire more than 3 PPCs at once. Not a single one.

A 4 PPC Stalker with 20 DHS could fire 3 PPCs, then wait 7.5 seconds (20 DHS = 40 heat in 10 = 4 heat per second. 4 * 7.5 = 30) to be free of heat. Alternatively, it could fire 3 PPCs, then wait 2.5 seconds and fire its fourth.

So that significantly slowers that mech's alpha capability down. To fire all 4, it needs to wait 2.5 between shots. To fire 3 constantly, it has to wait 7.5 between shots.

But how does this system affect smaller mechs, like, say a Jenner F? Lets take a Jenner F with 6 MLAS and 14 DHS. 6 MLAS generates 24 heat per alpha strike, so only 6 away from the heat cap. Ouch. With 14 DHS, the Jenner would dump 2.8 heat per second. After all the MLAS recycled, 3 seconds worth of recycle would take the Jenner down to 15.6 heat, or enough heat to fire 3 MLAS if it wanted. In total, though, to dump 6 MLAS worth of heat it would take 8.5 seconds. Under the current system, a 14 DHS Jenner dumps 2.56 worth of heat, so we can see it only gained 0.24 heat dumped per second. This obviously slows down this mechs killing power, then again, so was the power of the Stalker reduced.

I'd like anybody's feedback on this, really.

I like this. This or something similar needs to be done to help improve how matches go.

And if DHS were to still raise Heat Threshold above the 30 cap, then it should do so at the same 1.0 rate as SHS both inside and outside the engine. This way you have more of a trade off between the two heat sinks on Dissipation, Threshold, Crits used and Tonnage dedicated to heat sinks.

[Kyrs]

If they don't decrease the speed... I would at least try to a crescendo damage curve between .25 sec and .5 second.
It would still be different from laser but it could help to spread the damage