41 replies to this topic

[Leafia Barrett]

This topic is relevant to the discussion at hand, I think. It shows what the actual hitboxes for each part of each mech are.

That said, I do think you're on to something here.

[Big Giant Head]

Leafia Barrett, on 24 July 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

This topic is relevant to the discussion at hand, I think. It shows what the actual hitboxes for each part of each mech are.

That said, I do think you're on to something here.

Hey thanks for that link, very helpful!

[Big Giant Head]

Reducing overall percentage in arms creates logical reason for "arming" a mech or taking his side torsos, rather than going for his CT

[GRiPSViGiL]

Nice work here.....I love when the community brings for constructive suggestions and helpful ideas and hopefully this thread gets some attention to help them balance the game. I think details like this are important.

[Big Giant Head]

Bump.

[Tice Daurus]

I don't know completely if this would be the right way to go, but I do think hitboxs do need to be reevaluated by PGI on some mechs.

[Big Giant Head]

Added to main post

Quote

Player will get to choose what component to upgrade with ES or FF. So for example you can have arm thats armored with FF armor and your left torso as ES structure.

Quote

Increasing critical size of PPC will increase need for FF armor and single heatsinks (which would normally be placed in legs) on PPC builds

Edited by Big Giant Head, 29 July 2013 - 09:54 AM.

[Big Giant Head]

Karl Streiger, on 15 July 2013 - 01:17 AM, said:

I love this system - but why are you so cautious?
The critical TT system had one major need - it has to fit on a A4 sheet of paper.
The MWO critical system doesn't have those needs.

So - we all know - the bigger the hitbox the easier the kill.... thats the reason why people take care about the bigger size of the quickdraw:
What if the component volume size of each Mech is taken into calculations. I know that some have allready posted the volumes of mechs - the quickdraw is bigger as Catapract so the Quickdraw has more room for armor, internals and equipment - while the Catapract has only limited room.

Yeah that my be good variation between mechs

My opinions:

Well there are some mechs that could require size revaluation like I said in main post for Aweosme, Stalkers hitboxes needs to be looked at too.
Quickdraw is an issue. Its his size nothing else.
Centurion is too hollow, it needs to be less wide
Other mechs I think are just fine

Edited by Big Giant Head, 29 July 2013 - 11:21 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

So even the TT rules are from today on - simpler... the Alpha Strike is really a good start - no micromanagement - but still full of rules - that exceed the "options" MWO can deliver (pitty eh)

The best is it delivers really really simple rules for ECM, ECCM and spotting. Maybe PGI should glance at this book.

So when even the holyness of TT designer can break with there former rules and create a new game modus out of the basical TT why should MWO still hold fast to those values?

So yes I say: make the size of an engine dependend on its rating.
So I say make slots cosumed by armor and structure dependend on the thougness.

For example the Stalker... this toros is so long and big...does a XL Fusion really need to be placed into its side... or isn't there enough room to place all volume of a 255XL into the CT?

Should the Awesome only be able to place 3 DHS and a PPC into its side torsos? No Heatsink into the front?

Edited by Karl Streiger, 29 July 2013 - 11:45 PM.

[Big Giant Head]

Karl Streiger, on 29 July 2013 - 11:41 PM, said:

So even the TT rules are from today on - simpler... the Alpha Strike is really a good start - no micromanagement - but still full of rules - that exceed the "options" MWO can deliver (pitty eh)

The best is it delivers really really simple rules for ECM, ECCM and spotting. Maybe PGI should glance at this book.

So when even the holyness of TT designer can break with there former rules and create a new game modus out of the basical TT why should MWO still hold fast to those values?

So yes I say: make the size of an engine dependend on its rating.
So I say make slots cosumed by armor and structure dependend on the thougness.

For example the Stalker... this toros is so long and big...does a XL Fusion really need to be placed into its side... or isn't there enough room to place all volume of a 255XL into the CT?

Should the Awesome only be able to place 3 DHS and a PPC into its side torsos? No Heatsink into the front?

Yeah and like you said about your Streiger value (which number I cant remeber right now) - you took all weapon specifices in consideration ( range, damage, fallof,...) and multiplied them to get 1 value that rules all lasers - weapons that have same convergence.

So for example you cant apply Streiger (laser) value to PPCs, because its projectile.
Problem with PPCs is that they have similar convergence to ballistics, they are closer with similarity of convergence to ballistics tha to lasers.
But some values arent the same - thats ok, because thats what makes PPC a special weapon.
So where to find a solution how to fix PPC.

We look at PPC values, we think which aspect we want to keep and which to change.
PPC is special because of its instant speed and high damage at very long distance value and high heat output - thats how you recognize PPC - we do not want to change these values.
We need to choose from:

• critical size
  
• close range
  
• cooldown
  
• electrical effects
  
• acceleration (while mech is at high heat, PPC now takes some time to accelerate before it fires, if you want to risk with higher heat output than usual you can have some toogle to fire it exclusively)

I went with critical size, because I know that will limit its boating, it will force players to use new FF (i went with in main post) and SHSs. And hopefully with new critical slot layout that I posted in main post we wont be able to see Stalker cramps 3 PPC in his arms.


Thats how you balance weapons without loosing their meaning for existence

Edited by Big Giant Head, 30 July 2013 - 01:33 AM.

[Typhoon Storm 2142]

It sure sounds logical that bigger parts of a 'Mech should be able to carry more weight and armor. Or does it? I don't think so.

"The Hunchies shoulder is soooo huuuuge, it should have alot more space for armor plates!!!! DERPDERP!!!"

No, it shouldn't. The hunchies right torso is hollow, so you can add weapons to it. The left torso is not. There might be electronic or structural stuff in there, that gives the 'Mech balance.

[Big Giant Head]

Typhoon Storm 2142, on 30 July 2013 - 02:08 AM, said:

It sure sounds logical that bigger parts of a 'Mech should be able to carry more weight and armor. Or does it? I don't think so.

"The Hunchies shoulder is soooo huuuuge, it should have alot more space for armor plates!!!! DERPDERP!!!"

No, it shouldn't. The hunchies right torso is hollow, so you can add weapons to it. The left torso is not. There might be electronic or structural stuff in there, that gives the 'Mech balance.

Im not completely sure, but do you agree with main post or is there something thats disturbing? I couldnt understand you very well

Edited by Big Giant Head, 30 July 2013 - 02:45 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Typhoon Storm 2142, on 30 July 2013 - 02:08 AM, said:

It sure sounds logical that bigger parts of a 'Mech should be able to carry more weight and armor. Or does it? I don't think so.

"The Hunchies shoulder is soooo huuuuge, it should have alot more space for armor plates!!!! DERPDERP!!!"

No, it shouldn't. The hunchies right torso is hollow, so you can add weapons to it. The left torso is not. There might be electronic or structural stuff in there, that gives

the 'Mech balance.

I have to disagree...strongly.

I know some vehicle creator rule systems and all of them but the MechLab is build arround volume and weight.

Those volume is never fixed it is always dynamical and dependend towards the form of that vehicle.

The 12 critical slot system - well - to admit i don't know exactly why it was developed - but 12 is obviously the number of dice - although its is a 2d6 and 1d6 system -

making the chances more even to hit any critical part with the same chance.

Its a simple system that simulates micromanagement.

However MWO should not be dependend on such behaviour - because a computer should calculate such things in nano seconds. And to have critical components fixed in the 3d modell instead of random roll could help too. Thats the funny about some arguments (We don't want random in skill shooter but you actually have random inc - but thats another story)

I went a little to far - back to topic.

However the size of a mechs component black box (for example Right Torso or Left Torso) is given. Each plate of armor reduce the volume of these component boxes.

Simple - when i have a cube with 1.3m sides - and i add a layer of 0.15m armor at each side - i reduce the available voulmen by half.

So you say there might be electronics? Electronics for what?

The left is smaller = less place - (if you stay with random criticals) = less volume available for components.

That means a critical is a dynamical volume box of magic because it warps the equipment making it possible for a Commando having the same equipment slots of an Atlas.

Big Giant Head, on 30 July 2013 - 02:44 AM, said:

Im not completely sure, but do you agree with main post or is there something thats disturbing? I couldnt understand you very well

he is just disturbing or at least I'm interpreting DERPDERP in this way

Big Giant Head, on 30 July 2013 - 01:31 AM, said:

Yeah and like you said about your Streiger value (which number I cant remeber right now) - you took all weapon specifices in consideration ( range, damage, fallof,...) and multiplied them to get 1 value that rules all lasers - weapons that have same convergence.

Nice that some one remember.

I have tried to get a multiplicator for those... Lasers for example x0.6 and Large Pulse Lasers x0.75 simulating the beam duration

Edited by Karl Streiger, 30 July 2013 - 04:34 AM.

[Typhoon Storm 2142]

Big Giant Head, on 14 July 2013 - 03:43 AM, said:

I have been irritated by current "critical slot/ armor" distribution since first day I sit to play MWO.
...
So, what I want to change is not its core rule but just to shift it a little bit because this is FPS and we need realistic armor distribution.
...
Not every chassis is same, so distribution of armor and crit spaces shouldnt be the same either

*Considering that 100% includes RA, RT, CT, LT, LA without legs and head( RL, LL, HD ) their armor, crit slots will stay the same




Hunchback:

Percentage of armor, critical slots and structure in mech
*Considering that 100% includes RA, RT, CT, LT, LA without legs and head( RL, LL, HD ) their armor, crit slots will stay the same




Critical slots:

I strongly disagree. Why should there be differences between crit slots and armor points on the left and right torso of a Hunchback? Just because they have different sizes? Why should it have 14 crits in the hunch?

[Big Giant Head]

Typhoon Storm 2142, on 30 July 2013 - 03:13 AM, said:

I strongly disagree. Why should there be differences between crit slots and armor points on the left and right torso of a Hunchback? Just because they have different sizes? Why should it have 14 crits in the hunch?

Its because some parts are esier to hit ie. they have bigger hitbox size so its priotity.

Plus object that big should have proportional armor loaded onto it as well.
Im not adding extra armor and critical slots (and internal structure) on mech Im just arranging it from one component to another.
So for example I sacrificed both arms which makes them perfect target. It will push player to "arm" a mech as well

EDIT:
Plus dont forget that I exlusively said that every component will sacrifice X% of thier crit size to put FF or ES, so its scaled.

Edited by Big Giant Head, 30 July 2013 - 03:27 AM.

[Typhoon Storm 2142]

Big Giant Head, on 30 July 2013 - 03:19 AM, said:

Its because some parts are esier to hit ie. they have bigger hitbox size so its priotity.

Plus object that big should have proportional armor loaded onto it as well.

See, that's where I think it's wrong. The right shoulder of the HBK is hollow, so you can add autocannons and stuff to it. The left should is not. There is actually something inside the left shoulder that balances the 'Mech when you add your AC20 into the right shoulder. But both sides still have the same space for armor and crits.

The only thing I hate about the current mechanics is the following:

Each hit to the internal structure for most weapons have the odds of doing the following amounts of damage:

25% chance of the damage also causing 1 critical hit.
14% chance of the damage also causing 2 critical hits.
3% chance of the damage also causing 3 critical hits.

This adds dice rolling and randomness to the game. Not good.

Quote

Plus dont forget that I exlusively said that every component will sacrifice X% of thier crit size to put FF or ES, so its scaled.

You got me there, I haven't thought about that as a way of balance. Sounds reasonable. But still...

[Big Giant Head]

Typhoon Storm 2142, on 30 July 2013 - 03:38 AM, said:

See, that's where I think it's wrong. The right shoulder of the HBK is hollow, so you can add autocannons and stuff to it. The left should is not. There is actually something inside the left shoulder that balances the 'Mech when you add your AC20 into the right shoulder. But both sides still have the same space for armor and crits.

The only thing I hate about the current mechanics is the following:

Each hit to the internal structure for most weapons have the odds of doing the following amounts of damage:

25% chance of the damage also causing 1 critical hit.
14% chance of the damage also causing 2 critical hits.
3% chance of the damage also causing 3 critical hits.

This adds dice rolling and randomness to the game. Not good.



You got me there, I haven't thought about that as a way of balance. Sounds reasonable. But still...

I do agree that randomness and dice rolling is very bad move for FPS game thats ment to be full of expierience and skill.

But, when you mentioned that there is something in LT that balances RT weapons out, that could be resonable only in some kind of lore or stories.
Its sad that we dont have full immersive mechbay and mechlab information and gameplay with better physics. You just have to realize that we have to change game mechanic which is used and not some stuff that doesnt exists in MWO.

What balances out Jagermechs AC/20 right arm for example?

Edited by Big Giant Head, 30 July 2013 - 03:48 AM.

[Typhoon Storm 2142]

Big Giant Head, on 30 July 2013 - 03:45 AM, said:

What balances out Jagermechs AC/20 right arm for example?

Well, I was just fantasizing that, if you add a big weapon like a Gauss or AC20 in one arm, but have nothing in the other arm, the imaginary Techs would move some internal stuff that we can't see in the Mechlab, like electronics and structural things, over to the other side for balance.

[Karl Streiger]

Typhoon Storm 2142, on 30 July 2013 - 04:14 AM, said:

Well, I was just fantasizing that, if you add a big weapon like a Gauss or AC20 in one arm, but have nothing in the other arm, the imaginary Techs would move some internal stuff that we can't see in the Mechlab, like electronics and structural things, over to the other side for balance.

Some internal stuff that didn't have weight and volume?
I think now we come near to the point.

Take for example the ability to place crits were ever you want. Ammunition in all mech parts instead of a single armored magazine - you don't have to pay for the "ammo fed" some how the grenade for the AC 20 has to be moved out of the leg - to the CT to the LT and than in the arm.

The 14 slots for ES for example - they just "simulate" in a worse way that there is less room available - on the other hand (for example) with OmniMechs you virtually can create a OmniMechs Module size. (I belive the Timber Wolf had in arms and side torso 7 crits only making it hardly possible to place a AC 20 class cannon)

But instead of doing that dynamically Big Giants Head idea - well it doesn't allow you to have dynamically slot sizes - ES and FF as well as armor or heatsinks maybe even fusion or similar will cosume space - exactly were they are mounted.

As you have stated it out - i don't think that it is necessary to keep the 12 criticals.

BTW:
afaik the weigh difference is made by the gyroscope - that and that is funny have to be calibrated by techs - but when you shot of the arm of that Jaeger Mech the gyro is able to compensate that.

[Big Giant Head]

I think that with this new system here presented (main post) is important to allow player to load ES/FF on the components he wants as well.

Edited by Big Giant Head, 30 July 2013 - 04:47 AM.