76 replies to this topic

[Snuglninja]

The problem with the game isn't alpha's or boating it's the no reason to play mediums.
Pgi doesn't want to make a reason to play anything other then assaults/heavies, need prof look at the sales, and mc cost of ppc boat assaults.
I log on pick a medium if I'm the only one in a match I disco, **** 'em.
So you smart guys who don't like R&R tell me how to make mediums playable, no bs about movement, there were no mediums before that. Weight restrictions will never work it will just cause problems with mm ques then people will ***** about not being able to play the game so that will be dropped. The only way to get a balanced game period is to stop cw open private servers and support a community leagues that enforces tonnage limits and weapon limits.

[Orzorn]

arghmace, on 14 July 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

3) Mediums should have smaller frames. Mech size scaling in MWO is bollocks. Basically only lights are small and all the other mechs are equally huge.

I was very disappointed in PGI's response to scaling. Yes, they are right, its definitely more complex than people make it out to be, but they also tried to use density on us, when I would argue it doesn't matter. When a mech like the Quickdraw is larger than a 70 ton mech, its absolute bollocks in every way. That mech can NOT be balanced being that huge with only a 60 ton class of armor.

There used to be a reason to play mediums before PPCs and Gauss dominated the game. You used the same weapons as heavy and assault mechs, but went nearly twice as fast. They had more weapons than you, sure, but you could still kill mechs nicely (4SPs were feared).

But now that heavy ballistics and energy are dominating, medium mechs just can't play ball. They don't have the tonnage to both use several PPCs and have big engines, and they don't have the armor to survive anyways.

If heavy hitting weapons were harder to boat like they used to be (mostly due to heat), then mediums would be a bit more useful again. Also, SRMs need to be strong again, because both the Hunchback and the Centurion rely heavily upon them.

Edited by Orzorn, 14 July 2013 - 01:34 PM.

[Ragnar Darkmane]

Well, PGI announced that they'll implement weight balancing in the future (see Ask the Devs 42). Still not in development but definitely confirmed. Let's hope that this will break the dominance of heavies and assaults. But as things stand I'm afraid that people would rather play lights than mediums then. After all the hitboxes of lights are so wonky right now that they can survive more punishment than any medium AND are faster.

Edited by Ragnar Darkmane, 14 July 2013 - 02:05 PM.

[TheGreatNoNo]

Sir Ratburge, on 14 July 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

My cicidas are pretty amazing and I always get a few kills in them ... taken down many a heavy and assault - the only reason? Because they are fast (140kph) I don't know how the slower mediums like the blackjack survive.

Sadjacks, survive? Wah? They don`t normally. Now Cents , Hunchies and a few Trenchmouths can survive, and even do well!
Personally I fair much better in mediums then I ever did heavies and assaults due to them being so damned slow to even start moving, though the Sadjack is damned slow, 72-77kph unless your laser boating (then 89 kph-113kph depending on which one you use) even given that its armor is little more then a cicadas the damn thing just falls apart and people tend to look at it as a free kill (Hell, I do)

[Jack Lowe]

Gonna give my 2 cents into this as it's touched on in the OP but the why's and their results I think need elaboration. Medium mechs are suppose to be the most prevalent designs, the work horses of the battlefield why?

Well if we consider the overarching story line of great houses feuding for dominance we find some answers. Economics for one, it takes money to build these beasts maintain the plants that produce them pay the workers make the raw materials etc. Next up how about labor time there are references that an assault mech line can only produce a couple handfuls of mechs a year limits the numbers available. We can derive from this that smaller mechs can be produced in more numerous numbers. Houses would be daft to be throwing out large numbers of highly expensive limited quantity war machines without good reason. Medium mechs offer in this sense the best bang for the buck. Decent firepower, good maneuverability, fairly durable war machines that are relatively cheap to produce in good quantity. We have none of those limiting factors as of yet perhaps with CW there will be some sort of overarching economic system.

One way we COULD have simulated this is if you lost your mech if it were destroyed. The high costs of repurchasing assault mechs with the correct economy would have created a limiting factor. We don't have that, I understand the reasons and respect them. I AM NOT ADVOCATING WE LOSE MECHS simply pointing out how not simulating this part of the BT economy in any fashion to this point helps create the problem. The fact we have nothing to replace it in any way shape or form perpetuates it.

So what can we do with what we do have? One thing we can do is rework rewards. Although it will have to be carefully done. One idea is to have a tonnage related mechanic. For instance if I do well with my Wang I will usually take down around 250 tons of mech. I actually calculate this after a match by replaying it and remembering what I killed. That's 5 times the base tonnage of my mech, and atlas with the same kill tonnage would be 2.5 times. Giving the medium a greater reward for this would make sense as accomplishing it is a bit more difficult. Assaults have more much more armor and greater firepower. Also given my first paragraph it should make sense that if my cheaper, easier to produce Wang manages to take down a more expensive, rarer, more difficult to produce Atlas, and perhaps a cataphract this is a rather major victory even if I lose said mech. If I were a great house I'd gladly trade a medium for a enemy assault mech and a couple heavies all day long.

Scaling rewards using this type of thinking to devise a system can encourage players to use lighter designs. One must be careful because if it's over weighted everyone will gravitate to lights because they will have unbalanced rewards we'll find heavy drivers become rare and assaults all but extinct. Some might not mind that but I don't see any reason to outright punish someone that chooses to run an assault mech. This is why I don't offer a system just a concept. I want balance in the rewards so that all players feel equally rewarded regardless of which class they choose to drive. I think right now between the biggest shiny syndrome and the present rewards system it slants things toward the heavier end.

There are other parts of the puzzle this isn't a insta fix by any means perhaps I'll chime in on other things such as game modes, lack of role appropriate objectives, and a couple other things I see in current game play that hamper mediums. I will continue to play my medium however just because I get the most fun and enjoyment out of doing so of all the mech classes.

[jakucha]

Weight limit is in late stage design which means there's creation then testing. I feel like fairly even tonnage on both teams (that is a healthy loadout more like you'd see in lore) would fix a lot, but not all, of the current meta issues.

Edited by jakucha, 14 July 2013 - 05:15 PM.

[TehSBGX]

arghmace, on 14 July 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

1) Mediums should have better slope movement than heavies. Right now a 70 ton Cataphract climbs hills as well as a 45 ton Blackjack. This is completely outrageous.
2) Mediums should have slightly better acceleration and turning to make them more agile compared to heavies.
3) Mediums should have smaller frames. Mech size scaling in MWO is bollocks. Basically only lights are small and all the other mechs are equally huge.

So True.

My suggestion is upping the engine cap for mediums, While not all medium pilots would use a bigger engine due to weight there might be enough who would. If Mediums were closer to lights when it comes to speed then they might see more use.

[Deathlike]

Lost One, on 14 July 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:

Sadjacks, survive? Wah? They don`t normally. Now Cents , Hunchies and a few Trenchmouths can survive, and even do well!
Personally I fair much better in mediums then I ever did heavies and assaults due to them being so damned slow to even start moving, though the Sadjack is damned slow, 72-77kph unless your laser boating (then 89 kph-113kph depending on which one you use) even given that its armor is little more then a cicadas the damn thing just falls apart and people tend to look at it as a free kill (Hell, I do)

I wasn't great in a Blackjack, but I did alright. The Blackjack requires a lot more skill to survive and be effective in. It's not for everyone. The chassis could use some engine improvements, but the point is... you can be good in most mechs if you know how to use them. It doesn't always make them good.

[One Medic Army]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 14 July 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

Slow down Heavies and oh look, Mediums become viable again.

Why play a Medium when you can go 75+kph in a bigger, more well armored, heavier hitting mech?

Radical idea:
Do it because you can go 100-110kph in a mech which is only moderately larger than a light.

Oh wait, all our Mediums are slow as crap or gigantic...

The reason a Hunchback-G sucks compared to a Cataphract 3D is essentially because in TT they both went the same speed, but the 'Phract had more armor, more guns, and jumpjets.

Slow mediums being crap when compared to heavies isn't new, it's just that TT had BV and/or tonnage balancing, rather than every side gets equal number of mechs.

Edited by One Medic Army, 14 July 2013 - 05:27 PM.

[Nubsternator]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 14 July 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

Uhh, yes there is?
To make sure 5 of the games mechs are actually usable and useful?
The Cent got an Engine rating boost that derped its firepower.

Going faster isn't always the answer, which is why if anything, Heavies should slow down.

Then Heavies would only be lighter assaults. Then Heavies would be the new mediums, plain and simple.

The two things I can think of to bring every class in is these ideas.

The first would upset many people - bring back R & R. Yea, I said it. If everyone is wiped clean with resources on launch, with the exception of what you paid with MC, R & R could come back. Then mediums would be the reliable way to gain money, like it should.

The other is remove the engine limits in place. You make heavies slower, then they become obsolete. You make mediums faster, lights become obsolete. With the limits removed, lights can move faster, which gives space for mediums to go faster. This would give a scale inverse with speed and tonnage.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

They're the bulk of house armies because they're relatively inexpensive and allow you to fit more tons of weapons and armor on a drop ship at a given mobility profile.

For example, two 40 ton 4/6 mechs carry more tons of weapons and armor than a single 80 ton mech while taking up the same amount of cargo capacity in a drop ship.

[MasterErrant]

arghmace, on 14 July 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

1) Mediums should have better slope movement than heavies. Right now a 70 ton Cataphract climbs hills as well as a 45 ton Blackjack. This is completely outrageous.
2) Mediums should have slightly better acceleration and turning to make them more agile compared to heavies.
3) Mediums should have smaller frames. Mech size scaling in MWO is bollocks. Basically only lights are small and all the other mechs are equally huge.

I disagree. climbing is power to mass ratio. a 5/8 humchie shouls climb better than a 4/6 Cata...and nothing without hands or JJs shoulb be able to climb slopes over 40 DEG or so.

[arghmace]

MasterErrant, on 14 July 2013 - 09:07 PM, said:

I disagree. climbing is power to mass ratio. a 5/8 humchie shouls climb better than a 4/6 Cata...

Umm... yes, it should. So what exactly do you disagree with? Was my post ambiguous in some way?

[Jman5]

Here is the sad truth about the Hunchback.

Out of all the mediums and lights, it is the slowest mech out there. 10 of the 22 Heavy variants are faster than the hunchback. Of the remaining 12, most are close to the hunchback's top speed. In fact, there is only 1 heavy variant that is significantly slower than the hunchback (cataphract 4x).

The hunchback 4sp and 4p could easily fit a higher engine without losing much firepower.

[Deathlike]

Jman5, on 15 July 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

Here is the sad truth about the Hunchback.

Out of all the mediums and lights, it is the slowest mech out there. 10 of the 22 Heavy variants are faster than the hunchback. Of the remaining 12, most are close to the hunchback's top speed. In fact, there is only 1 heavy variant that is significantly slower than the hunchback (cataphract 4x).

The hunchback 4sp and 4p could easily fit a higher engine without losing much firepower.

You know what's sad about that? I'm not sure PGI has the hunchback tagged for quirks (if ever), but if it ever did, the Champion build would be more obsolete than it is currently... especially after the proposed heat-alpha nerf. I have a hard time imagining myself wanting to keep running the 260 STD engine if the 275 STD engine was accessible after any potential quirk.

[Angel of Annihilation]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 14 July 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

1 Viable Medium doesnt make all the others viable though.
I'm sure the S Hawk will be good, but Mediums are generally inferior to Heavies, like you said, and thats the real problem.

I only play my Cent or HBK when I want a challenge

They are only inferior if not played correctly. Did a test a while back using mediums just to see if I could put up numbers with them similar to what I was doing with my Heavies and Assaults and the overwhelming conclusion was that I could easily put up competitve numbers.

The reason why most people don't get good mileage out of mediums is because they rush ahead and try to go toe-to-toe with heavies and Assaults rather than hanging back and supporting their team.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

Viktor Drake, on 15 July 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

They are only inferior if not played correctly. Did a test a while back using mediums just to see if I could put up numbers with them similar to what I was doing with my Heavies and Assaults and the overwhelming conclusion was that I could easily put up competitve numbers.

The reason why most people don't get good mileage out of mediums is because they rush ahead and try to go toe-to-toe with heavies and Assaults rather than hanging back and supporting their team.

I have no problem fighting Heavies 1v1 at all, and I understand that wasnt your insinuation.

But my problem lies in the fact that the Heavy mech is considered to be the middle ground between the Medium and the Assault.

Why would it be bad for the Medium to be considered the middle ground between the Light and the Heavy?

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I've been thinking that there are three main issues that impact Mediums.

The first is with how Speed Tweak provides such an important boost to all mechs once unlocked.

If it's removed or replaced with something else, and then have mechs between 20 and 45 tons tweaked so that the Max Engine Cap calculation would be 9.1 over the current 8.5 it change might improve mobility for Mediums compared to Heavies and Assaults, while hopefully not greatly impacting lights, aside from having to tweak builds a bit, (but then again, with lights there would also be more trade offs to be made to get to ~150 KPH without Speed Tweak).

For example

Spoiler

• 20 tons - Engine cap goes to 185 to get to 150 KPH (impacts Locust and Flea, wait and see for now since not in game)
  
• 25 tons - Engine cap goes to 230 to get to 149 KPH (Commandos will cap at 215 and 139 KPH currently, generally slower anyway and could use with a mech quirk pass if anything, IMO)
  
• 30 tons - Engine cap goes to 275 to get to 149 KPH (impacts Spiders slightly, 1.5 ton difference with XL 255 and 275, plus a heat sink inside the 275, maybe affects the 5K the most, shouldn't change much for the 5V or 5D)
  
• 35 tons - Engine cap goes to 320 to get to 148 KPH (likely affects Jenners more than Ravens, adding three tons for an XL 320, because the Ravens have lower Engine Caps, with a tweak to Jenners' torso hit boxes and the mech should be still at the top of light mechs)
  
• 40 tons - Engine cap goes to 365 to get to 148 KPH (Cicadas would need to do more of a trade off, with the 4 ton difference between an XL 340 and XL 365, and I've seen a range of builds, and 4 tons shouldn't weaken the mech to get to 148 KPH relative to other mechs)
  
• 45 tons - Engine cap goes to 400 to get to 144 KPH (Black Jacks wouldn't be affected with their current Engine Cap)

So without Speed Tweak we would have the non-lights as follows:

• the BJ-1X max speed be 106.1 KPH with the other three at 84.6 KPH
  
• Cents would go 89.1 KPH (A and AL), 97.2 KPH (YLW) and 126.4 KPH (the D)
  
• Hunchies would go 84.2 KPH
  
• Trebs would be 105.3 KPH and the 3C 126.4 KPH
  
• Dragons and Quickdraws would be at 97.2 KPH
  
• Cats and Jagers would go up to 78.5 KPH (Firebrand up to 84.7 KPH)
  
• Catas would cap at 78.7 KPH (59 KPH for the CTF-4X)
  
• AWS, four would go 60.8 KPH, (the 9M 78 KPH and the PB 81 KPH)
  
• Victors would go 78 KPH (Dragon Slayer 81 KPH)
  
• Stalkers at 59.1 KPH
  
• Highlanders 58.5 KPH
  
• Atlas 58.3 KPH

So this can help address the issue of mobility for Medium, if we need to make more trade offs between speed and firepower in the other classes, which leads to the second issue we face.

The second issue deals with with how we can raise the Heat Threshold to such a high level, benefiting mechs that can load more DHS. Here we at least need to rework DHS so that they don't raise Heat Threshold as high as they currently can. In the engine they count as 2, outside 1.4. So an equal number of DHS is worth way more than SHS. Take 11 DHS with at least a 250 and Heat Threshold is 51.40. 11 SHS is 41.00.

18 DHS with at least a 250 gives 61.20 (like on a HBK-4P(C)). To get close to that Threshold you need 31 SHS to hit 61.00 and at 31 tons compared to 18 tons for DHS in heatsinks.

Factor in the better dissipation and we get what we have with mechs capable of firing multiple weapons for high damage per shot and DPS through the roof for many weapon combos, making it harder to balance weapons also.

If a fair Heat Threshold cap can be set (at 30, 40 or 60) and then tweak stock loadouts to fire with their stock heat sinks, it might be possible to build from there, without having to make major changes to what's already in place in the game. DHS raising the Heat cap so high is currently part of our problem that needs way more discussion and visibility IMO.


The third issue is with how Heavies can get a greater boost to load more weapons from XL engines combined with Speed Tweak and DHS than many Mediums.

But without Speed Tweak, they're gonna be slower if they try to use a slightly smaller XL engine to squeeze more weight savings and they are still risking an early shot to spectating a match with an XL. Also tweak DHS and this issue might balance out between Mediums and Heavies on its own for most cases.

Well, that's what I've been noticing so far for how Mediums fit into all of this and how the issues of them being considered inferior can be addressed to keep improving the game.

[Braggart]

Doubled armor is what makes Mediums so terribad.

The generic buff to all mechs has hit mediums the hardest. Now a medium that already carries a very modest armament and usually shorter ranged has to cut through way more armor than heavy and assaults are required to cut through in return.

armor wise it is 64 for a 50 tonner, and 124 for a 100 tonner. a hunchback has a much easier time cutting through 62 armor with only 32 armor than it does 124 with 64 armor. An extended fight is a medium makes worst nightmare. ALL BECAUSE OF DOUBLED ARMOR.

Instead of doubled armor, it should have been a flat increase across all mechs, not decided by existing armor.

[One Medic Army]

Braggart, on 15 July 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

Doubled armor is what makes Mediums so terribad.

The generic buff to all mechs has hit mediums the hardest. Now a medium that already carries a very modest armament and usually shorter ranged has to cut through way more armor than heavy and assaults are required to cut through in return.

armor wise it is 64 for a 50 tonner, and 124 for a 100 tonner. a hunchback has a much easier time cutting through 62 armor with only 32 armor than it does 124 with 64 armor. An extended fight is a medium makes worst nightmare. ALL BECAUSE OF DOUBLED ARMOR.

Instead of doubled armor, it should have been a flat increase across all mechs, not decided by existing armor.

Yes, and let's completely ignore that a 55ton medium in TT would be into internals in 1-shot from an AC/20, everywhere except CT, and would die from a second hit to the same spot.

You think mediums are bad now, imagine if they were actually getting 1shot through CT front by only a 4PPC stalker.

Edited by One Medic Army, 15 July 2013 - 12:20 PM.