76 replies to this topic

[Braggart]

One Medic Army, on 15 July 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

Yes, and let's completely ignore that a 55ton medium in TT would be into internals in 1-shot from an AC/20, everywhere except CT, and would die from a second hit to the same spot.

You think mediums are bad now, imagine if they were actually getting 1shot through CT front by only a 4PPC stalker.

........................................Jesus christ................................. You miss the entire point. The point was that heavier mechs got much larger buffs from that change than mediums got, which puts mediums in an even worse position because they now have to cut through twice as much armor as before in come cases.

A flat extra 25 or whatever to all mechs would have been fine, rather than giving an atlas 62 more armor, and a hunchback 34 and calling it even and balanced. Because it is not. That change was a rich get richer boost to the heaviest mechs, that can also carry the most firepower and better enable them to cut through the additional armor giving to all mechs. While your hunchs/cents/trebs are now in a worse position because they carry very modest firepower and a short range.

The heavier the mech, the less they needed the armor buff, and also gained the most out of it in the long run.

for example. Lets do a comparision 25 extra armor to all locations. We will use CT totals first is Current in game, and 2nd would be with the 25 armor flat increase.


35 ton mech 44 current, 47 with change tabletop 22
40 ton mech 48 current, 49 with change tabletop 24
50 ton mech 64 current, 57 with change tabletop 32
60 ton mech 80 current, 65 with change tabletop 40
70 ton mech 88 current, 69 with change tabletop 44
80 ton mech 100 current, 75 with change tabletop 50
90 ton mech 116 current, 83 with change tabletop 58
100 ton mech 124 Current, 87 with change tabletop 62

Notice how drastically those armor values get out of range of allowing a medium to compete, or even a lighter heavy. The Heaviest mechs got way to much buffing out of that change. Assaults can still 2 shot a medium, but mediums now have to how many shot. It was not a fair change at all.

Edited by Braggart, 15 July 2013 - 12:40 PM.

[One Medic Army]

Braggart, on 15 July 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

........................................Jesus christ................................. You miss the entire point. The point was that heavier mechs got much larger buffs from that change than mediums got, which puts mediums in an even worse position because they now have to cut through twice as much armor as before in come cases.

A flat extra 25 or whatever to all mechs would have been fine, rather than giving an atlas 62 more armor, and a hunchback 34 and calling it even.

The heavier the mech, the less they needed the armor buff, and also gained the most out of it in the long run.

The time it takes the heavy to kill the medium: doubled.
The time it takes the medium to kill the heavy: doubled.

If the medium was winning before doubled armor, it'd still be winning, but with a larger margin.

Mediums suck because we have slow heavily armed mediums, and the TT construction rules we're following say that a slow heavily armed medium is pretty much always inferior to a heavy at the same speed.

The hunchback-G in TT was only good because it was cheaper in BV/tonnage than a heavier mech.
We do not have BV/tonnage restrictions which are required to make heavily armed mediums not-crap.

[Braggart]

One Medic Army, on 15 July 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

The time it takes the heavy to kill the medium: doubled.
The time it takes the medium to kill the heavy: doubled.

You dont really believe that do you? Because in reality that is not how it works. I don't disagree that the game needs tonnage or battle value limits. But the doubled armor has decimated mediums when it comes to facing heavier mechs.

Back to your time to kill theory. If it took a heavy mech 4 seconds to kill a medium before, it would take 8 now, and if it took a medium mech 6 seconds to kill a heavy, it takes 12 now. The gap in time to kills has grown favorably for the heavy, allowing a heavy to be capable of killing more mediums in the time it takes a medium to kill a heavy.

A better IDEA would have been to give everyone roughly 3 more seconds work of armor so to speak. Where the time to kills are 7 seconds and 9 seconds. It takes everyone longer to kill, without making certain classes of mechs weaker. This is a dumbed down representation, but I truly hope that anyone who reads this can understand the concept.

There is a reason way GUASS/AC20/PPC are the dominate weapons, and its not because of their DPS.

Edited by Braggart, 15 July 2013 - 12:53 PM.

[One Medic Army]

Braggart, on 15 July 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

You dont really believe that do you? Because in reality that is not how it works.

There is a reason way GUASS/AC20/PPC are the dominate weapons, and its not because of their DPS.

Twice the armor=twice the fire (at the same spot) required to kill something.
No, I'm pretty sure that's the way it works.

Of course, if we had halved armor then mediums would be getting 1shot left and right, whereas heavies would still require multiple successive hits in the same location from mediums to die.
After thinking about it, I think mediums are actually better off right now.

[Lugh]

jakucha, on 14 July 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

Weight limit is in late stage design which means there's creation then testing. I feel like fairly even tonnage on both teams (that is a healthy loadout more like you'd see in lore) would fix a lot, but not all, of the current meta issues.

Of all the meta issues, making the LORE pre-eminent dropship weight limits your go to weight limit for 8 mans 540tons same as much of the previous MW titles and TT

[Braggart]

One Medic Army, on 15 July 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

Twice the armor=twice the fire (at the same spot) required to kill something.
No, I'm pretty sure that's the way it works.

Of course, if we had halved armor then mediums would be getting 1shot left and right, whereas heavies would still require multiple successive hits in the same location from mediums to die.
After thinking about it, I think mediums are actually better off right now.

You obviously dont understand.

Back to your time to kill theory. If it took a heavy mech 4 seconds to kill a medium before, it would take 8 now, and if it took a medium mech 6 seconds to kill a heavy, it takes 12 now. The gap in time to kills has grown favorably for the heavy, allowing a heavy to be capable of killing more mediums in the time it takes a medium to kill a heavy.

A better IDEA would have been to give everyone roughly 3 more seconds work thf armor so to speak. Where the time to kills are 7 seconds and 9 seconds. It takes everyone longer to kill, without making certain classes of mechs weaker. This is a dumbed down representation, but I truly hope that anyone who reads this can understand the concept.

The mediums were never gonna beat the heavies in either scenario, but the change actually made Mediums significantly worse. Regardless of how you feel about math.

I simply am pointing out that doubling armor was a bad idea. Increasing armor was a great idea, but doubling it for all mechs was not. It should have been a flat even increase across the board for all mechs.

Edited by Braggart, 15 July 2013 - 01:04 PM.

[One Medic Army]

Braggart, on 15 July 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

You obviously dont understand.

Back to your time to kill theory. If it took a heavy mech 4 seconds to kill a medium before, it would take 8 now, and if it took a medium mech 6 seconds to kill a heavy, it takes 12 now. The gap in time to kills has grown favorably for the heavy, allowing a heavy to be capable of killing more mediums in the time it takes a medium to kill a heavy.

A better IDEA would have been to give everyone roughly 3 more seconds work thf armor so to speak. Where the time to kills are 7 seconds and 9 seconds. It takes everyone longer to kill, without making certain classes of mechs weaker. This is a dumbed down representation, but I truly hope that anyone who reads this can understand the concept.

The mediums were never gonna beat the heavies in either scenario, but the change actually made Mediums significantly worse. Regardless of how you feel about math.

My point is that doubled armor didn't cause the problem.

The problem is that slow mediums suck.

The problem is that all we have are slow mediums, giant mediums, and one chubby flightless Jenner.

Going back to single armor won't fix anything, it'll just make mediums (and everything else) die faster while the assaults alpha spam them for the pretty explosions.

[Braggart]

One Medic Army, on 15 July 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

My point is that doubled armor didn't cause the problem.

The problem is that slow mediums suck.

The problem is that all we have are slow mediums, giant mediums, and one chubby flightless Jenner.

Going back to single armor won't fix anything, it'll just make mediums (and everything else) die faster while the assaults alpha spam them for the pretty explosions.

WHAT THE FREAK MAN....................................................... I never ever said anything about going to back to original armor values.

Good lord...............READ READ READ READ. I suggest a flat increase in armor for all mechs, All mechs get 25 more armor, not doubling each mechs armor. Time to kill is increased across the board, but the gap between A medium and Heavy mechs time to kill each other is not getting further increased, but maintaining the exact gap. Go back through my last few posts here. It will explain everything you need to understand.

Edited by Braggart, 15 July 2013 - 01:07 PM.

[One Medic Army]

Braggart, on 15 July 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

WHAT THE FREAK MAN....................................................... I never ever said anything about going to back to original armor values.

Good lord...............READ READ READ READ. I suggest a flat increase in armor for all mechs, All mechs get 25 more armor, not doubling each mechs armor. Time to kill is increased across the board, but the gap between A medium and Heavy mechs time to kill each other is not getting further increased, but maintaining the exact gap. Go back through my last few posts here. It will explain everything you need to understand.

Something about how you keep saying doubled armor is the reason mediums suck...

It's not the case, (slow) mediums sucked before doubled armor, and (slow) mediums suck after doubled armor.
You want them to stop sucking, STOP MAKING THEM SLOW.

Edited by One Medic Army, 15 July 2013 - 01:18 PM.

[Rotaugen]

Weight matching will do far more than economics. I am sitting on over 100 million c-bills. I still drag my mediums out because I like them, but run far more assaults. I hate the thought that my Centurion or Hunchie just gave the other side an Atlas. Tonnage matching would make Atlases an expensive thing to do to your side.

[Trev Firestorm]

Jake Hendricks, on 14 July 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

You can't put the genie back in so they say. R&R might have been a discouragement at one time but now players tend to have enough cash to take the risk of a complete wipeout for the chance to get a steamrolled game.

I don't think money is going to be a factor in mediums being played more. Better stats on the mechs might, same with limits on mech weights may as well.

Yes and no, I agree that its too late to put R&R back in as it will only punish new players, but using slightly boosted rewards (and an overhaul of the reward system) could entice newer free players to run atleast one medium consistently so they can afford the more expensive mechs/equipment faster. The difference won't be huge but as new players join it should lead to a boosted population of mediums outside of those of us who simply love them to begin with. Also if this were to happen it would need to be stated plainly/openly and obviously for (especialy) new players to see when making their (first) mech choices.
Edit: this should be combine with arghmace's points on the first page of this thread.

Edited by Trev Firestorm, 15 July 2013 - 01:37 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Dark Shaman of Clan Ghost Bear, on 14 July 2013 - 07:30 AM, said:

"Medium Mechs range from 40 to 59.9 tons. They form the fighting bulk of the House Armies and the majority of mercenary 'mech companies across the Inner Sphere. Some carry a single heavy weapon while others use a variety of weapons, although there's not much allowance for a large arsenal on such a small frame. Mechs of this weight class generally average around the 50 ton range, and are cost-effective in that they are cheap enough to mass produce, but potent enough to do the majority of the tasks required of a 31st Century mechwarrior."


Medium Mechs. They form the bulk of most Mech armies.
Would you say this is true in MWO?

I wouldn't even say this about TT... Unless it was about the 3025 House Liao.

[Khobai]

Mediums have two major problems that I see. 1) Scaling. Why is a Trebuchet as tall as an Awesome? 2) Max speed does not fall in between a Light and Heavy. If most heavies can get upto 70kph easily, then no medium should go less than 110kph.

Certainly mediums should traverse slopes better than most heavies as well. This is how it should look IMO:

Tiny: Commando, Spider
SlowdownAngle: 40°

Small: Raven, Cicada, Jenner (Jenner should be small not tiny), Blackjack (should be small not medium)
SlowdownAngle: 35°

Medium: Centurion, Dragon, Trebuchet, Hunchback, Quickdraw (Quickdraw should be medium not large)
SlowdownAngle: 30°

Large: Awesome, Catapult, Jagermech, Cataphract (Jager and Cataphract should be large not medium)
SlowdownAngle: 25°

Huge: Atlas, Highlander, Victor, Stalker (Stalker should be huge not large)
SlowdownAngle: 20°

Edited by Khobai, 15 July 2013 - 02:06 PM.

[Kilrein]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 14 July 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

I don't see whats hard to understand about "Engine get heavier, Firepower get weaker"

Unless I am missing something here, engines for the Cent don't weigh more than the same rating engine for the other mechs. Not sure how the Cent's firepower got derped by having the CHOICE to install a larger engine. That's like saying the Cent's firepower is buffed because you can install a smaller engine in it. No, it's not, it's a balance CHOICE.

But sadly the balance overall in this game is not there.

[One Medic Army]

Kilrein, on 15 July 2013 - 01:55 PM, said:

Unless I am missing something here, engines for the Cent don't weigh more than the same rating engine for the other mechs. Not sure how the Cent's firepower got derped by having the CHOICE to install a larger engine. That's like saying the Cent's firepower is buffed because you can install a smaller engine in it. No, it's not, it's a balance CHOICE.

But sadly the balance overall in this game is not there.

The basic fact is that a Cent with a 200engine, or a 250 engine, or even a 275 engine, gets fewer guns than a heavier mech going at the same speed.
Cents only get more guns at a given speed than other tonnages of mech starting at 280std.

Yes, a 280std Cent gets fewer guns than a 250std Cent, but the 250 Cent gets less guns than other mechs going at the same speed, at least the 280std Cent would get more guns than a heavier mech going the same speed.

Speed is a tradeoff, you want to find the right spot on that tradeoff curve.

[Stoicblitzer]

Xie Belvoule, on 14 July 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

If you think making Mediums pay out more C-Bills will help them your crazy. Im currently swimming in a Scrooge McDuck pile of C-Bills, I can run Assaults indefinitely.

how about making assaults pay out less than now instead of boosting medium earnings? assaults ~60-70% of current earnings, Heavies ~70-80% of current earnings, Mediums ~100-110% of current earnings, Lights 90-100% of current earnings.

can you still run assaults indefinitely and make a profit excluding premium? i also have 175million but the economy needs a huge revamp.

Rotaugen, on 15 July 2013 - 01:21 PM, said:

Weight matching will do far more than economics. I am sitting on over 100 million c-bills. I still drag my mediums out because I like them, but run far more assaults. I hate the thought that my Centurion or Hunchie just gave the other side an Atlas. Tonnage matching would make Atlases an expensive thing to do to your side.

this is also a good point. i get bored of assaults but why run a medium if the other team gets an Atlas? we know strict weight matching causes matchmaker to take years but something needs to be done.

Edited by Stoicblitzer, 15 July 2013 - 02:05 PM.

[TehSBGX]

I've thought of something that could help mediums. Maybe Speed Tweak should give a 20% bonus for mediums and 10% for everything else? Mediums are in such a rough spot that some kinda weight class quirk like that could help.

[Postumus]

The reason why people most often pilot heavies and assaults is that the great majority of rewards come directly from damage done and kills/assists. Even if I lose a match, I can often pull 500-800 xp and 150k cbills just from having done alot of damage and racked up a couple kills/savior kills/assists.

There needs to be a reward system that makes things like cooperating with/helping your team, accomplishing objectives, defence etc. at least as lucrative as just pounding away on the other team's armor, if not more so.

That said, if this was implemented, there still wouldn't be any real incentive to take a medium in place of a light. Repair and Rearm coupled with weight limits would go a long way towards popularizing the medium weight class, but I don't see R&R being reintroduced in the near future, so it will be up to weight limits. Also, giving mediums some perks (movement bonuses, speed bonus, maybe damage bonus with a certain weapon per variant or mech) could help alot.

[wolfmanjake]

I'd like to see a somewhat randomly generated set of drop limitations based on the planet being fought over in community warfare that forces each side to either a total weight range or weight class slots. You could even vary slightly for class slots/weight limit between sides for variance in the game, especially if they introduce imbalanced game modes but still put enough limitation that we aren't seeing 6-7 assaults/heavies every match.

[blinkin]

Xie Belvoule, on 14 July 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

If you think making Mediums pay out more C-Bills will help them your crazy. Im currently swimming in a Scrooge McDuck pile of C-Bills, I can run Assaults indefinitely.

i imagine you can run them for a long time, but math generally disagrees with your "indefinitely" claim. at some point if you blow up too many atlai, you are going to burn through your stockpile and you will reach a point where you cannot repair your mechs anymore.

Cathy, on 14 July 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

I think if RnR came back numbers would drop, people have stables of heavy and assault mechs now and to be told hey we're changing the rules so you can only use them if you generate enough cash, if it had been inplace, and kept in place fair enough but tomany people have spent hours grinding or RL cash buying.

we have been screwed too long and now our only option is to remain screwed? the same thing could easily said about any balance change (look what they did to jump jets, just for the record i love the JJ shake), because they change the usefulness of many mechs on the field that have already been purchased.

at some point we should take off the training wheels and let people fall on their faces if they have bought a mech that is too much for them.