464 replies to this topic

[Chronojam]

hammerreborn, on 16 July 2013 - 03:19 PM, said:

Not to mention the fact that the current heat system is completely unintuative in the first place...so his point is moot.

I've heard "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" but most people shy away from "If it's broke, don't fix it" because of how dumb it makes them sound. Please, clarify your position, because it's incredibly stupid when read straight. If you're an accelerationist and hoping to be "part of the problem" to force PGI to fix the issues, okay, I get it. If you honestly believe that existing bad mechanics beg additional bad mechanics, I don't know what to say.

[MechFrog1]

VagGR, on 16 July 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

in all the games i had today there was no more ppc/ac40 fest...none..gone...so like it or not the heat scale thing works.

I know you think you're doing the game we all want to succeed a service by defending every PGI decision right or wrong, but unless your Elo is incredibly low, you're lying. There are just as many PPC stalkers and Boomjaegers as there were yesterday. All the Stalker mechwarriors had to do was split their firing groups, and the Boomjaegers still get three solid alphas off without having to worry about a shutdown.

This overly complex system slapped onto an already overly complex system didn't solve any problems. You can try and lie and spread misinformation but you do MWO a disservice when you do it.

[Wales Grey]

mint frog, on 16 July 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

Boomjagers still get three solid alphas off without having to worry about a shutdown.

Reports indicate that on cold maps Boomjägers can get off four alphas before almost shutting down. :science:

[hammerreborn]

Chronojam, on 16 July 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

So your argument is essentially "There are problems and obscure mechanics, so it is safe to introduce problems and obscure mechanics." This sounds absurd on paper, so I would like to ask you to clarify your position.

The entire game is obscure to a new player. To argue that any player would be able to figure out A while simultaneously figuring out B is ridiculous on it's face.

Let's put it this way.

A new player logs into the game. He only has access to the 4 trial mechs, currently the 2D, 1X, C4, and RS (C). Already, what are each of these mechs, and why does one have a C?

You can click each and are given a brief loadout window. Alright, the 1X has 4 medium lasers and 4 flamers, and if you scroll over it it shows where they are located, awesome!

But what are medium lasers, and what are flamers? Assumably flamers shoot fire and lasers are...lasers. There is no indication of heat, range, damage, duration, cone of fire, exponential heat growths, or ANYTHING. There is literally NO WAY to get information about ANY weapon from the trial menu screen.

So the guy drops in match, sees his weapon setup, has no clue what all the numbers on the side of the weapons means, and proceeds to right and left click, which fires various weapons. Great!

There's also little range numbers, that change color. Green usually means go, so we'll go with that, what about yellow? Black is assumably can't use, so maybe yellow is something between go and not go? Does it still do damage?

You fire again, and note a random red bar goes up. What does that mean? Well, you keep on firing, and you get a warning that heat is high? What does that mean? You fire again and shut down. Oh, I guess that's it.

Even when you finally get to the mechlab, its just random numbers thrown at you. What's duration, long range (seriously, this should be changed to optimal range), heat, etc. How much heat do I have? 100? Because that's my percentage in game.


To argue that somehow this heat scaling system is so absurdly unintatuive that it just breaks the game for new players who are already dealing with a completely unintuative EVERYTHING leaves me at a loss for words about how stupid that argument is.

The only real argument is for veterans of the game suddenly having their AC/20s do double the heat game and not reading the patch notes. New players won't be able to tell the difference.

Their arms are locked, their throttle speed is different, they have preset weapon configurations that they don't know how to change, they have heat bars that aren't even labeled, they have weapons with no indication of heat generated, range, or effect, and a litany of other issues that makes this game turn off so many potential pilots that to argue that THIS HEAT SCALE, AND ONLY THIS HEAT SCALE, is the straw that broke the camels back has to win one of the most ******** comments of this thread.

Edited by hammerreborn, 16 July 2013 - 03:44 PM.

[Alex Novian]

Dear PGI, remove the boat penalty from AWSs please. they are the only TRUE PPC carrier



thankyou.

[Lemming]

hammerreborn, on 16 July 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

Their arms are locked, their throttle speed is different, they have preset weapon configurations that they don't know how to change, they have heat bars that aren't even labeled, they have weapons with no indication of heat generated, range, or effect, and a litany of other issues that makes this game turn off so many potential pilots that to argue that THIS HEAT SCALE, AND ONLY THIS HEAT SCALE, is the straw that broke the camels back has to win one of the most ******** comments of this thread.

Please point out where anybody is saying that this is the only problem with the game. You will note, however, that we are in the thread discussing the update that added this terrible mechanic to the game. Perhaps you will ponder on this fact. Maybe through reflection all will become clear.

[Wales Grey]

hammerreborn, on 16 July 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

So your argument is "new players won't know about this obscure, arbitrary, and useless mechanic, it'll just be the way it is to them, u just need to l2p u scrub"?

Also, good job pointing out all the other dumb and intuitive things about this game that could have been addressed with all the man-hours spent wasted developing this pointless mechanic. #concerntrolling101inthisthread

edit: fixed wording

Edited by Wales Grey, 16 July 2013 - 03:47 PM.

[Wales Grey]

Alex Novian, on 16 July 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:

Dear PGI, remove the boat penalty from AWSs please. they are the only TRUE PPC carrier



thankyou.

no dont you get it using more than two guns (of the same kind!!!!1! the horror) at once is boating and exploiting the game engine why dont you have any honoureereere #clanrp #yolo

Edited by Wales Grey, 16 July 2013 - 03:52 PM.

[Chronojam]

Chronojam, on 16 July 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

So your argument is essentially "There are problems and obscure mechanics, so it is safe to introduce problems and obscure mechanics." This sounds absurd on paper, so I would like to ask you to clarify your position.

hammerreborn, on 16 July 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

The entire game is obscure to a new player.

I was sincerely hoping you were trying to parody s3dition, and it disappoints me to know you sincerely embrace this attitude. Let me coin the phrase, "Paul's Law."

[MechFrog1]

Quote

Cause I'm pretty sure the people firing 2 AC/20s right now are seeing the difference

Yeah, after killing your mech with the first two volleys he can only fire two more times before worrying about shutting down.

[Vertigo 1]

I gotta say, this patch looks like a step in the right direction but I'm going to have to complain about something real quick.

What the hell is with the new Founders patterns? Yeah you are allowing us to customize them (which is great, and what I want), but why are you ruining the default skin that you guys had? I really loved the light blue but now the colors just look washed out and dark.

Disappointed overall in the new look for the Jenner and Catapult. There's absolutely no reason that the colors needed to have changed.

Edited by Vertigo 1, 16 July 2013 - 04:02 PM.

[Koniving]

Behemothk, on 16 July 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

PPC multiplier = 7.0
ERPPC multiplier =4.5
Whats this? Maybe drugs?

7*8 = 56
11*4.5 = 49.5

DRUGS! O_O! But that's in addition to the other two PPCs or ER PPCs.

7*8 = 56 + 8 + 8 = 72
11*4.5 = 49.5 + 11 + 11 = 71.5
...It's drugs!

[Wales Grey]

hammerreborn, on 16 July 2013 - 03:57 PM, said:

You mean, like the new heat scale? Cause I'm pretty sure the people firing 2 AC/20s right now are seeing the difference, and everyone is fully capable of single firing, which would let them figure out the difference pretty quickly. Chain fire is a readily available hotkey.


We get it, you don't like the new system. Know what you can do? Quit. No one will miss you.

Stop talking about things you clearly don't understand. The Boomjager is almost totally unaffected by the #paulsdumbidea. The most optimal fits for most robots are almost totally unaffected by the #yoloswagheat. This mechanic is easily bypassed with little to no effect on the playstyle it is meant to inhibit. We are frustrated because we see PGI wasting time on solutions in search of problems, and an apparent lack of critical thought about the impact of their choices on the current state of the game. I appologize that my opinion is quite different from yours, with respect to the developer's "best efforts", but that's life. #biotruths

Koniving, on 16 July 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

7*8 = 56
11*4.5 = 49.5

DRUGS! O_O! But that's in addition to the other two PPCs or ER PPCs.

7*8 = 56 + 8 + 8 = 72
11*4.5 = 49.5 + 11 + 11 = 71.5
...It's drugs!

I don't think it works like that. More like ((base_heat)+(if_over_maxfired_heat))*(number of weapons fired)

[Ragnar Darkmane]

I like the patch thus far. Now that the 4 PPC stalker and AC 40 Jager actually takes SOME skill to play you see much more varied mechs/loadouts in the matches.
If they increase the number of penalty free Large Lasers to 3/4, punish 2 PPC + Gauss set ups with heat penalties as well, buff the Large Pulse Laser, slightly buff SSRMs (a nerf was justified, however I feel they went slighty overboard with the nerf) and fix the damn hitboxes of Spiders the game will be in a rather nice state.

Edited by Ragnar Darkmane, 16 July 2013 - 04:08 PM.

[Koniving]

Wales Grey, on 16 July 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

I don't think it works like that. More like ((base_heat)+(if_over_maxfired_heat))*(number of weapons fired)

Then... for 3 ER PPCs: 33 heat + 4.5 * 3 = 112.5?

The fact that 112.5 "heat" is within 72% of my threshold of my Awesome 8Q is mind boggling if that's the case.

[Chronojam]

Ragnar Darkmane, on 16 July 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

punish 2 PPC + Gauss set ups with heat penalties as well,

You're unironically suggesting that firing an essentially heat-free weapon in synergy with two high-heat weapons should generate bonus heat. That is what you are doing, here. Take a step back and ask yourself why you want to have them do this. What is it about this combination that is different than the quad-PPC Stalker? What is similar? Why is a heat penalty the solution?

[Wales Grey]

Ragnar Darkmane, on 16 July 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

I like the patch thus far. Now that the 4 PPC stalker and AC 40 Jager actually takes SOME skill to play you see much more varied mechs/loadouts in the matches.
If they increase the number of penalty free Large Lasers to 3/4, punish 2 PPC + Gauss set ups with heat penalties as well, buff the Large Pulse Laser, slightly buff SSRMs (a nerf was justified, however I feel they went slighty overboard with the nerf) and fix the damn hitboxes of Spiders the game will be in a rather nice state.

Why should people be punished for driving 2ppc+gauss other than "i don't like it"? Why should people be punished for building efficient and specialized gundams?

[Lemming]

hammerreborn, on 16 July 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

We get it, you don't like the new system. Know what you can do? Quit. No one will miss you.

I was going to respond to more, but really, this is the core of it. It is a bad system that doesn't make any sense, doesn't make the game any more fun, and doesn't make the game more welcoming to new players, and you think that people quitting the game over this mechanic is fine. Protip: if a feature is making fewer people play your game, when player population is already a pretty big problem, that is probably an indicator that it is a Bad Feature.

[Chronojam]

Lemming, on 16 July 2013 - 04:13 PM, said:

I was going to respond to more, but really, this is the core of it. It is a bad system that doesn't make any sense, doesn't make the game any more fun, and doesn't make the game more welcoming to new players, and you think that people quitting the game over this mechanic is fine. Protip: if a feature is making fewer people play your game, when player population is already a pretty big problem, that is probably an indicator that it is a Bad Feature.

No, Lemming, don't you get it? The reason the matchmaker keeps failing on us when we try to catch another 8-man isn't because there are so few groups left playing, it's because of our mean-spirited attitude. And yet another set of 8-man groups permanently leaving will not negatively impact MWO's longevity, because

Seriously, it's not failing to find a match because people have stopped playing due to bad mechanics, it's because the game client scans our forum posts and performs incredibly elegant NLP to determine an emotional score, or "Eso," which it then compares to other groups online. We're just not compatible.

[ToxicValor]

Lemming, on 16 July 2013 - 04:13 PM, said:

I was going to respond to more, but really, this is the core of it. It is a bad system that doesn't make any sense, doesn't make the game any more fun, and doesn't make the game more welcoming to new players, and you think that people quitting the game over this mechanic is fine. Protip: if a feature is making fewer people play your game, when player population is already a pretty big problem, that is probably an indicator that it is a Bad Feature.

Trying to understand here... so, the system is good for new players when/if they find a "nich" setup using large scale PPCs or LRMs to maximize damage with little effort?
Or.. the system is good if that nich is the only thing they play because other setups possibly add more variety and/or options are bad and not worth it?
The current heat system for it will work. It prevents boating which a lot of new or lazy players (Except the few good) and nearly forces players to explore other options rather then doing cookie cutter loadouts with certain mechs and staying that way.

The core of a bad system is to promote stale builds and cookie cutter like loadouts that people will use time and time again without exploring because either of multiple reasons.