461 replies to this topic

[pow pow]

Asatruer, on 16 July 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

Similarly, the Awesome comes by design with 3 PPCs which is more than the 2 max without penalty.
Please, rather than adding arbitrary heat penalties, consider another option, like convergence.

and while you are at it, add recoil to autocannons.

[MasterErrant]

PhoenixFire55, on 16 July 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

It is not because it is not making any sense whatsoever.

Why 6 MLs and not 2, 8, 11?
Why 2 PPCs and not 1, 3, 5?
Why 24.0 multiplier for AC20s and not 25.0, 99.0?

Its arbitrary chosen numbers, and we already know that when thinking and decision making is involved PGI fails so very often.

Do the right thing (convergence + possible 'heavy hardpoints') first and then see if you need to do anything else.

6 MLs because that is the largest single block of ML that is stock on a Standard mech (Swayback)
@PPCs because there are several mechs in battletech that carry dual PPCs,
as for the ac40?...well likely because it's the most egrgious example of game distorting spam AC20s are so larger and heavy that for hundreds of (Post starleague) years there were literally no mechs built that dualed them. period. and to be honest the king crab sucked. it's a very expensive peice of "Alphabait" generally alphaed to scra-p as soon as spotted.

[Nulnoil]

[Dal Gurak]

For me I think the new heat scaling business is a good attempt at solving a very old problem. The high alpha to pinpoint locations isn't a problem specific to MWO. Every other MW game had it too. If Activision couldn't solve it then; PGI are going to have to get really creative to solve it now.

After playing around with the dual AC/20 jagger I've found the extra heat could solve the problem. Yes, you can keep your heat down by firing the weapons in quick succession. However your chances of hitting the same location on a moving mech where the pilot has the sense to rotate their torso drastically reduces. Plus adding to the fact your mech is probably not standing still either (or if it is your probably about to be squashed anyway) reduces the chance further. If you want to ensure you get the damage in to the same location you have to way up the cost of extra heat vs that advantage. This to me is what MW has always been about; making decisions fast to win.

[Thanatonis]

Yeah, sorry, but my friends JUST got me into this game. I went with starting a PPC build that I have used on previous MechWarrior games. Spent ALL of my cash getting it partially created, and INSTANTLY have it nerfed to uselessness for the way it is supposed to play out.

So, my feed back as someone who is NOT going to sell my crap and half cost and start back grinding cash AGAIN to get a usable build because of a patch when I just spent everything I had after just getting into the game is negative enough to already get me to stop playing.

If you have an issue with how the MechWarrior world plays, don't make a game using it. Before the change light mechs could already out strafe me and destroy me if my team didn't help. I ALREADY had to watch my heat usage and pick my shot because even 5 PPCs didn't kill unless you got a weak back panel or a head shot. Regrouping my weapons and trying to pick it out that way is DRASTICALLY lowered my damage on games. However a Guass Rifle group isn't limited. I would have picked up mech and did 2 and 2 if this was going to be the mutilation of the game mechanics when I first started.

Now my mech is useless in most other iterations as well, regardless if I am getting picked apart. So peace out, and have fun. I will catch the game again should they decide to follow the actual game mechanics again at some point.

[Dude42]

Words cannot express how disappointed I am that you guys went ahead with this idea. I quit.

[Riptor]

It certainly broaded up the choice of weapons being used in the games i had played yesterday.

But it has to be seen if thats consistent and if its really the heat scale and not the buffing of SRMs.

Also LRMs have become much more prominent now once more making running from LRM secure cover to LRM secure cover that much more difficult... and LRM secure cover is hard to find with their current flight path.

[Rhalgaln]

I simply like it.

It's a cool Idea to stop Alphas and still keeps them as an emergency Option which they should be.

None of my builds is penalized.

Great Job !

[SanGan]

I like the new heatsystem.

It brings more quality in the game. The Piloit needs more skill as just press alphastrike.
Where are more variants of weapons and mechs at the battlefield.

I think its working as intended.

just my 2 cents

[FREDtheDEAD]

Top marks for positive change in gameplay this patch. It's getting a bit LRM heavy at times, but games are definitely better. Props, PGI.

Dude42, on 16 July 2013 - 11:31 PM, said:

Words cannot express how disappointed I am that you guys went ahead with this idea. I quit.

Bye! Next!

Edited by Xajorkith, 16 July 2013 - 11:49 PM.

[Mack1]

I wish all the amateurs that are incapable of coping with Mechs that boat 4 x LL or 4 x PPC or 4 x LRM or 4 x LPL would just leave, they are ruining this game with their constant crying to the devs and now we have a totally broken game where everyone is FORCED to build Mechs that essentially are all the same.

[Mack1]

XX Sulla XX, on 16 July 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

I am seeing better games after the patch. More SRMs and less PPCs. And more varation of mechs.

Really? All I am seeing is everyone packing 2 of the most powerful weapons that are available to their hardpoints. I actually saw lots of people with exactly the same build because now the number of viable builds per Mech has been totally slashed. Welcome to Cookie warrior online.

[PhoenixFire55]

LackofCertainty, on 16 July 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:

It's not an ideal solution, but as long as you can chain-fire stuff without being affected, I think it's fine.

I really don't follow you. As I said, if you do a good search you'll find several IS mechs being able to do 3-4 PPCs and 6-10 MLs etc. Or are you saying that boating weapons on Clan mechs should be allowed while boating same weapons on IS mechs shouldn't ?

[PhoenixFire55]

MasterErrant, on 16 July 2013 - 10:45 PM, said:

6 MLs because that is the largest single block of ML that is stock on a Standard mech (Swayback)

So why do other mechs get same 6 ML limit? And why Hunchback P? There are other mechs with lots of MLs in stock configs that are not in game. Mechs we have in game are also arbitrary chosen by PGI.

MasterErrant, on 16 July 2013 - 10:45 PM, said:

@PPCs because there are several mechs in battletech that carry dual PPCs

There are far more that carry 1. There are those that carry 3, 4.

MasterErrant, on 16 July 2013 - 10:45 PM, said:

as for the ac40?...well likely because it's the most egrgious example of game distorting spam AC20s are so larger and heavy that for hundreds of (Post starleague) years there were literally no mechs built that dualed them. period. and to be honest the king crab sucked. it's a very expensive peice of "Alphabait" generally alphaed to scra-p as soon as spotted.

Unlike a K2 there was absolutely nothing wrong with putting 2 AC20s on a Jagermech. It was a perfectly valid BT mech. Now PGI ruins everything BT is, adding heat to even single AC20 so it generates more then an ERPPC. Its just plain stupid. ACs don't generate much heat, ACs are limited by the amount of ammo they can use. You can be sure that with 12 vs 12 less people would use Jagerbombs because they can't possibly have enough ammo to last for 12 mechs.

There is NOTHING wrong with being able to alpha-strike. Problem is in convergence, as long as its not changed the game will be broken no matter what heat penalties you introduce for alpha-strikes.

I've tryed an AC40 Jager and a 4 and 6 PPC Stalkers yesterday. They are still very valid. This patch has failed.

[John MatriX82]

Until ER PPCs won't be considered the same as normal PPCs, 2xER PPC + 2xPPC stalkers will keep to have a dominant role, rendering brawling still not a 100% happy choice. After 30th of July we'll see, there's some brawling back and this is a good thing.

Yet I believe that the new heatscale is messy, unclear (nothing tells you about the penalties in the mechlab!!!). Please rethink your harpoint free displacement, and limit hardpoints addressing "this one can hold a 5 slot ballistic only and nothing more" and things like these.

Not only, but many stock builds (awesome 8Q and 9M) gets botchered up by this. I say give us hardpoint restrictions. Throw away the actual system and rebalance every single variant with a better hardpoint loadout, with limits for it.

You'd address uber LRM boats (above 50 LRMs) and many other boats, maybe even think about giving each variant specific bonuses when employing a certain loadout (eg. make the awesomes the only ones that can shoot 3xPCCs without any penalty, with a bonus in heat generation or something like this-> bam! they would became a respected chassis and counterable at the same time due to the big hitboxes).

[Mega Prawn]

I have already posted about this in a couple of other places, but I guess I'll sumarise here too:

1) As far as I'm concerned their approach this issue is fundamentally flawed - why add an unnecessary mechanic to the game when you have plenty already in place that you could tweak?

2) What on earth possessed them to nerf large lasers!? They didn't need a nerf, and now I can't use 4xLL properly. Yes I can chainfire, but it makes a massive difference, especially to hit and run builds like the 4xLL Flame.

3) I massively totally completely agree with others that if they would only fix the &*^!&£%$!^£% convergence this wouldn't be an issue! Put in 'converge on locked target' and 'convergence times' and we would see an enormous difference.

I seriously do not know why PGI thought adding an entirely new, entirely arbitrary, entirely divisive mechanic would be the most sensible solution.

Here is a longer post I wrote about this:

http://mwomercs.com/...56#entry2564256

[Blimie]

I'm dubbing this the LOL patch. Why do I call it the LOL patch you ask? Basically because of how these changes were implemented... It seems the only criteria they used was do people boat this(in our opinion)? No? next weapon. Yes? apply nerf bat...

The way they went about this makes no sense. [/color]

First off 2 AC20 is boating, but 4 AC5, or 6 AC2 isn't? (I should point out that both the latter have a higher DPS than the AC20's)

Why are streaks and SRM2's even included? The most any mech can carry is 6, and with the bone structure change to streaks they aren't even going to hit the same location. (Even if they did it would be a whopping 24pts. Of damage, how OP!)

Only 2 PPC? Really? Why did they bother to fit 3 on the Awesome 8Q?[/color]


SRM launchers can't even fire the same number of missiles before they cause extra heat...[/color]

Let's not even get started on LRM's because apparently only LRM15's can be boated....(yes pgi, I MUCH prefer to be hit by 4 LRM 20's rather than 4 LRM 15's)[/color]

I can see them saying (in the future) that the delicate magnetic coils in the gauss rifles can be affected by the magnetic fields generated by other gauss rifles if fired within .5 seconds of each other causing a chance of 1 or more gauss exploding..... (remember you heard it here first LOL) [/color]

Really though they could have taken a more logical approach to this though, say... more than 20 SRM fired within.5 seconds would cause additional heat, same with more than 30 LRMs (more than that clogs the missile exhaust vents). For energy weapons firing more than (insert number here) heat from energy weapons caused additional heat build up because capacitors couldn't compensate for more heat at once than that.

Ballistics are a bit more difficult, but something along the lines of firing more than 1 AC20 , 2 AC10(either type), 3 AC5(either type) or 4 AC2 within .5 seconds caused additional heat from the gyro going into overdrive to compensate for the recoil from more than that.[/color]

Pow boating almost any weapon fixed in a logical (OK semi-logical) fashion.[/color]

The fact that as it is now you can only boat LRM 15's is absurd.[/color]

Hell 4 AC5 or Ultra AC5 do more DPS than the 2 AC20 builds, but running 4 of those isn't boating? Same can be said for the 6 AC2's All of witch can be used with a macro to defeat the .5 second delay between firing. Ya, ya, the AC2's are heavy 18 tons for 3, but so are AC 20's at 14 tons and they take up a hell of a lot more room..

Personally I don't have a problem with boating and don't think "boating" is the issue, the way the weapons converge and the way heat is handled is . [/color]

I have much more of a problem with missiles hitting my center torso almost 80% of the time. At least with the boats they have to be where I can see them and I can slug it out, with the missiles they may be 800 meters away behind a hill and I may never even see them. I would have much rather seen the bone structure fix applied to LRM's than this nonsense heat patch with no logic behind it...[/color]

Oh and apparently gauss rifles can't be boated.... I can't wait to see the Clan Omni mech's Appear with plug and play hard points 4 gauss, or 6 AC10 Daishi anyone?[/color]

Edited by Blimie, 17 July 2013 - 02:06 AM.

[J I N]

Thanatonis, on 16 July 2013 - 11:29 PM, said:

Yeah, sorry, but my friends JUST got me into this game. I went with starting a PPC build that I have used on previous MechWarrior games. Spent ALL of my cash getting it partially created, and INSTANTLY have it nerfed to uselessness for the way it is supposed to play out.

So, my feed back as someone who is NOT going to sell my crap and half cost and start back grinding cash AGAIN to get a usable build because of a patch when I just spent everything I had after just getting into the game is negative enough to already get me to stop playing.

If you have an issue with how the MechWarrior world plays, don't make a game using it. Before the change light mechs could already out strafe me and destroy me if my team didn't help. I ALREADY had to watch my heat usage and pick my shot because even 5 PPCs didn't kill unless you got a weak back panel or a head shot. Regrouping my weapons and trying to pick it out that way is DRASTICALLY lowered my damage on games. However a Guass Rifle group isn't limited. I would have picked up mech and did 2 and 2 if this was going to be the mutilation of the game mechanics when I first started.

Now my mech is useless in most other iterations as well, regardless if I am getting picked apart. So peace out, and have fun. I will catch the game again should they decide to follow the actual game mechanics again at some point.

The idea of this new heatsystem was mentioned weeks or maybe months ago, so you could have known about the upcoming changes... in fact your build can't be that bad... you have to learn to fire your PPCs in groups of 2 to manage your heat. (What is the delay between two groups? 0,5 seconds?)
I think that your damage / game won't be bad with that way of playing, but you will realise, that it's much harder to kill someone without 40-60 pinpoint alphas.
--> I don't want to provoke you, but I can't imagine that your mech is that bad right now.

Also I don't think that you will have to spend the same amount of money once more to make it work, if you want to change your weapons. As I understand you, you used C-Bills to build your mech, so in fact everything was for free and not for real money, which would be the only point I could really understand. You can grind money pretty fast without any bonus. (like 100k a game thanks to shooting sidetorsos or legs, which should be easy enought using 4 PPCs in 2 groups... I did that with a 2x PPC Raven ^^)
If you feel like you need a whole new mech, maybe see it as a chance to try something new and cheaper. Grind some money and buy another mech. (this is the whole idea of the game I think ;-D )

You have to realise that 5-6 PPC builds are a hated and unintended (based on BT) thing in MWO. So a large part of the players will be happy to see this as a step to a more balanced game. (in MW4 the limit for PPCs was handled by the special slots... so I think MWO is the first game with the possibility to mount 5-6 PPCs)
I died by such alphas pretty often for myself, so it didn't freak me out, but it was definitely not fun to play against such mechs... the thing you have to realise is that many players will have much more fun playing now, because they didn't and don't use boating builds and their enemys won't do it to that extend from now on.

I got 9 mechs right now by grinding and I'm using different builds on most of them, so such a change won't affect me that much. I can understand that you feel cheated, because you totally focused on a special way of playing that has been blocked right now, but I don't think that you should stop playing a game that is fun to you... there are many more ways to play this game and you will realise that your situation is not as bad as it feels right now.

[pow pow]

Quote

[color=#959595]There is NOTHING wrong with being able to alpha-strike. Problem is in convergence, as long as its not changed the game will be broken no matter what heat penalties you introduce for alpha-strikes.[/color]


[color=#959595]I've tryed an AC40 Jager and a 4 and 6 PPC Stalkers yesterday. They are still very valid. This patch has failed.[/color]

Hey Phoenix, i ve seen you play from time to time and you are one of the top bracket pilots out there. I am pretty sure you could play any build in any patch without any issues whatsoever.

What i witnessed from my games last night, I saw a massive decrease in mechs boating LL or ppcs, i saw people picking up srms again and getting into brawls (in fact, when I get home I ll post an imgur album of all end game ss from last night, that clearly shows who the top dd were in those games). the only gripe is probably the ac40 being nerfed to hell. but chain firing 2 ac20s is also quite easy, just not as easy as point-click-boom that it was before. dual gauss is also quite amazing if you want rediculous pow pow (albeit a little more dangerous)

finally, removing convergence imho opinions will just ruin this game. it's already quite hard to pick specific parts of a mech at a distance while moving, and in the top brackets even more so with people being so pro evading by torso twisting. removing convergence will just make long range builds obsolete. next thing people will want RAND recoil and we will have a game like hawken with bt mech designs.

No thanks.

[MustrumRidcully]

Feedback on play-testing and stuff directly goes here:
The system is non-intuitive. The explanation in the patch notes and the terminology is either incomplete or misleading.

There is on explanation at all in the mech lab or while playing a match, so the system is also not understandable from playing the game.

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 16 July 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

wierd though. in mech3 high heat blew you up. why is this penalty system such a big deal here?

Did MW3 require grouped weapons to generate more heat than the sum of the individual weapons heat to achieve that?

Nope.

Not that MW3 had an actual solution, either. The problem has been the same at least since MW3 - convergence + group fire makes boating the best option. Adding artificial extra heat gains is missing the point.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 17 July 2013 - 04:11 AM.