461 replies to this topic

[WaddeHaddeDudeda]

If nobody mentioned it yet: it's most likely a bad idea that PPCs and ERPPCs don't stack. Same for LL and ERLL.

Instead of running 4 regular PPCs I'll simply do 2 and 2 now. It probably runs hotter than my old 4 PPC config, but since everyone is about to do that I'll get the necessary cooldown breaks (just as the opfor guys).
Still, running 2 and 2 = way less heat than the penalty of 4 PPCs.


Oh, and I personally think 0,5 seconds to nullify the penalty are way to less (even though the whole "penalty" idea is garbage for various reasons -> not going to repeat myself over here, rather trying to point out how easy everyone -including myself- will circumvent the penalties).
I have a gaming mouse with some spare buttons. Guess first order of business is to delete that advanced zoom key (couldn't make use of it in over a year now - gg) and replace it with a nice macro to stagger my fire (gg again).


In the end: bad idea is bad.

Instead of nerfing/changing ALL fundamentals of how this game works just because of 1 up to 3 certain variants it would be probably better to take a look into said variants and change these (read: don't make SRMs useless for 99 % of all Mechs just because of the A1 and also don't do what you do to all other weapons just because of the Stalker).

With the current approach nothing will be solved.
Dual PPC + Gauss Jumpsnipers will still reign the battlefield. Same for 3 PPC (now 2 and 1) + Gauss.

All you've really achieved was killing the good old (and benched - thanks to better Stalker hitboxes) quad PPC + Gauss Atlas RS and while you've done this you've killed the last 8 or so 5-6 PPC Stalkers. Most people been running 4 PPCs anyway.
Not to mention the Hunchy 4P. It's fragile and not very heat efficient to begin with. Now it get's punished for its flawed (canon) existance?


Dear sirs, sorry, I cannot approve of this patch!


EDIT: Actually I'm taking back my "you've killed the good old, but outdated quadruple PPC + Gauss RS" statement. OF COURSE it will now be a 2 and 2 + Gauss RS (and will still be outdated).
So in the end you may have truely killed the last 8 or so 5-6 PPC Stalkers along the way.
GG all!

Edited by WaddeHaddeDudeda, 16 July 2013 - 11:26 AM.

[Acid Phase]

Maple Nachiman, on 16 July 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

Just because mechs come stock with more than the heat penalty cap, doesn't mean they were intended to be fire all at once. Lets just use some heat management.

QFT

Asatruer, on 16 July 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

Similarly, the Awesome comes by design with 3 PPCs which is more than the 2 max without penalty.
Please, rather than adding arbitrary heat penalties, consider another option, like convergence.

tredmeister, on 16 July 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

Same with my Awesomes! (The only assaults I own.) Further gimping an already disadvantaged chassis stock loadouts?

Also,,, more than 2 LLasers? Two?? Really??? Guess I did not notice that there was a such problem with them...

Sorry guys, but you can no longer use the



Your mechs were not meant to alpha fire every single time you wanted it. I suggest you heat manage better. Good job PGI, you are getting closer to balance.

Edited by Acid Phase, 16 July 2013 - 11:23 AM.

[TheSteelRhino]

Icebergdx, on 16 July 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

I have an issue with the 6 ML penalty, specifically with mechs such as the Hunchback 4P, which come stock with 7 or ML s if I remember right. That is penalizing a mech that is operating as designed.

Asatruer, on 16 July 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

Similarly, the Awesome comes by design with 3 PPCs which is more than the 2 max without penalty.
Please, rather than adding arbitrary heat penalties, consider another option, like convergence.

tredmeister, on 16 July 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

Same with my Awesomes! (The only assaults I own.) Further gimping an already disadvantaged chassis stock loadouts?

Also,,, more than 2 LLasers? Two?? Really??? Guess I did not notice that there was a such problem with them...

As was previously said. Just becomes it comes with that many weapons or slots does not mean you were meant to be able to constantly Alpha Strike.

The Awesome having 3 PPC's was a VERY big deal in tabletop (which the whole BT/Mechwarrior universe is based on). Fire 2, and then fire 1. It's that simple.

For the Hunchback, fire your pod lasers, and then your arm/head mounted lasers.

Quite some time back before PPC heat was reduced on the weapons themselves there was a mini Large Laser boating phase. Let's see, they do 9 damage, are "correctable" (meaning that if you are a little off your targetted area you can adjust them), and it's not ridiculously hard to mount 4 of them. I think PGI is just looking at history and is smart enough to realize the cheese builders will simply fall back to something else that worked before. Probably a smart idea. (And there was a phase where HBK-4P's with 9 medium lasers were the "OP" mech as well...Just like the 4 SP with 3 SRM packs before they removed the 3rd missile hardpoint).


I'm all for these changes, and while I'm sure it will take some tweaking will probably lead to more FUN gameplay, and more design creativity vs just building a "death star" on a stalker and pointing it at the enemy.

@WaddeHaddeDudeda

Oh..and if you read Paul's forum post in Comand chair.....You will see that starting the 30th PPC/ERPPC DO stack..they just couldn't get it tested in time for this patch.

[Distemper]

Unintuitive and overly complicated, god knows what the influx of new players come September will make of it all. Yes something needed to be done but not this

[warner2]

The patch notes are woefully inadequate and do not explain anything. The phrase "scale multiplier" does not by itself explain squat.

I guess we have to try it out and deduce what is happening in-game.

PGI why don't you tell us the rules of your game?

[Homeless Bill]

AFTER ~15 MATCHES:

• The SRM damage increase has restored some semblance of balance to the game. Because brawlers can brawl again, things aren't nearly as bad. Videos of SRMs doing it all kinds of right: River City Night | Forest Colony Snow
  
• I took each of my cheese builds out for a round, and they all performed as well as always, even when I exercised extremely lax fire discipline. Please watch these videos to get an idea of why heat penalties will simply never work: Cheese King 732 (3xPPC, 1xGR) | Cataphract 3D (3xPPC) | PPC Stalker (4xPPC)
  
• The delay isn't big enough. Bursts of 20 points of damage should be spread out by about a second - not a half-second.
  
• The problem remains: you can still put obscene amounts of damage on a single component with a single click. Snipers don't need DPS. They need the occasional good look. Watch the above videos, and you'll see what I mean. Smart players can manage heat. You need to PREVENT cheesy alphas - not punish them, and some form of accuracy penalty is simply the only way to do that.
  
• Please, please consider this solution.

OP:

While I applaud you on making the penalties harsh enough to be somewhat effective (particularly for AC/40s), I think it's ultimately bad for the following reasons:

• Largely Ineffective - Because Gauss is not included, we're just going to see a bunch of 2xPPC+1xGR builds. Eventually, you'll lump in Gauss with other long-range direct fire weapons to fix that, which leads me to my next point...
  
• Counter-Intuitive - It simply makes no sense for a low-heat weapon to have a ridiculous penalty. And let's face it: you're going to have to do that for the Gauss. You're going to have the super-low-heat weapon with a super-high heat penalty, and it's going to be awkward. It is odd for veterans of MWO, stranger for veterans of other MechWarrior games, and super weird and unfriendly to new players.
  
• Incorrectly Targeted - Giving the same penalty cap to large lasers and PPCs is ridiculous. The issue you're trying to solve is single-component DPS - NOT DPS in general. Two large lasers will spread their damage around in all but the most perfect circumstances. Please adjust the weapon caps to properly reflect a weapon's pinpoint damage capability instead of just looking at damage. I realize that PPCs get a bigger penalty, but I see absolutely no reason to penalize anything less than 4xLL, 8xML, and some others (though with that cap adjustment, I'd be all right with a harsher penalty once the threshold is met).
  
• Killing a Tactic Instead of Fixing It - Rather than fixing an alpha strike's capability to do all damage to a single component, you're simply doing whatever you can to make people stop alpha striking. While I don't think alphas should be used nearly to the extent that they are now, you're ultimately trying to relegate them to the "I'm about to die" shot. I'd much rather see alpha strikes have a useful niche (tons of damage at once, but it doesn't all go to a single location) than one last cheesy salute. This solution turns alpha striking into a high-stakes gambling game when it could be an interesting choice between lots of damage and accurate damage.

You can probably continue down this path and make the numbers work eventually, but it will be extremely ugly, counter-intuitive, and it robs the players of making an interesting choice.

Edited by Homeless Bill, 17 July 2013 - 02:23 AM.

[TheSteelRhino]

PhoenixFire55, on 16 July 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

Its stupid, makes no sense whatsoever. Bandaids aren't the solution, bandaids break the game.

Get rid of perfect auto convegrence and you fix all boats.

Honestly, there should be some slight convergeance variations. In short, as a pilot you should have your crosshairs dialed in for X range. (say 500 meters)...at 550 they are off a bit, and at 450 they are off a bit right? Therefore unless you have a "perfect shot at exactly 500 meters" there will be some spread.

The other option here would be to implement real heat penalties like the battletech heat scale with penalties and damage and exploding things. Sorry convergence alone is not enough.

Having said that, this would likely require massive rework, and things are already delayed enough. I think what has been proposed can work, although it will probably require constant tweaking.

[megoblocks]

Distemper, on 16 July 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

Unintuitive and overly complicated, god knows what the influx of new players come September will make of it all. Yes something needed to be done but not this

Agreed.

I run my Jager alternating b/w an AC40 and 5x ac2s depending on how dakka dakka I feel. I'm not very impressed with how well this deals with high alpha pin point strikes. I took my AC40 out for a few times already and guess what? I still turned mechs into little bits. I didn't alpha nearly as much as before, but the .5 second delay wasn't that big of a deal to adjust for (which is nice, alpha strike wise) but when the shot really mattered and I knew I had a confirmed (or high probability) kill, I'd just line up the shot and give the poor guy both barrels. Coupled with an improved 9 by 9, I can get off 3 pinpoint alphas if I'm totally cool (4 and I take some core damage). I won't cry about my AC40. Its a little annoying, but I can adjust easily enough. And when I get bored smacking things around with it, I'll switch to a 5xAC2 and then back again etc.


So what did this solve? Nothing really. And it does nothing to address mix builds like ppc+gauss. And if I'm a new player (even as an old), I'm going to scratch my head and wonder why the hell does a 35 point alpha have no penalty, but a 30 point alpha does (3 ppcs) and a 40 point alpha does (2 ac20s).

While I appreciate the attempt to curb pinpoint alpha online, there were and are better ways to do it than this overly complicated method.

[BlueSanta]

This has done nothing to improve my gameplay experience and several of the penalties are just dumb, as others have pointed out. 6ML and 3LL are not the problem, and now people are just running 1 Gauss + 2-3 PPC. This does nothing to fix high alpha instant convergence pinpoint damage.

[JackAttack5]

So I've just noticed that AC2s have a heat penalty. It wasn't mentioned in the patch notes, and I've never heard a developer mention the idea ever previously.

Here's proof on smurfy. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...eapon_ballistic

You can try it out in game, I have, and it's very noticeable.

Firstly, why? AC2 boats aren't at all overpowered. It's pretty unanimously agreed that even within Jager builds, those with PPCs and Gauss are better at the job of 4AC2 builds. The build is still good, and fun, but not at all overpowered and in need of a nerf.

Secondly, why not tell us? Is this something a programmer snuck in without telling whoever puts the patch notes together?

Thirdly, it seems to be broken. Firing three AC2s together does not trigger the penalty, and rightly so. Firing three on a macro so that they each fire individually (ie. How chain fire should work but doesn't) triggers the penalty and causes huge heat spikes. If this is working as intended it's a strange intention from the developers. Bear in mind firing the three on a macro still fires them at an overall lower or equal rate of fire as alpha firing all three together, but spreads the damage across the target more. I do not see how it deserves a nerf.

Fourth, it's unavoidable for 4AC2 Jagers even without a macro. A 4PPC Stalker can fire two PPCs, wait 0.5 seconds and fire the other two. It dodges the heat penalty, and has an equal rate of fire overall to what it would have if it fired all four at the same time. 4AC2s however are impossible to fire at the same rate without hitting the penalty, even when divided into pairs, due to the short 0.5 second reload time.

Basically yet another nail in the coffin of sustained DPS builds. High alpha forever right PGI?

Edited by JackAttack5, 16 July 2013 - 12:15 PM.

[Hythos]

Nightdancer ND, on 16 July 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

Simply don't Alpha?!?
Fire the 3rd half a second later... that's too hard for you?

Acid Phase, on 16 July 2013 - 11:22 AM, said:

Exxccccept... The Awesome was designed to fire all three PPC's simultaneously, with a SINGLE weapon-circuit - a-la Group Fire. I don't have my books with me, but it was absolutely described as having been designed with that specific ability in mind. That was partially why they called it ...............






wait for it....



the Awesome. Get it?
It is meant to fire THREE PPC's at one time, without any significant heat-issue, every 10 seconds. This means, that using 28xHS (singles) should not produce MUCH extra heat.

I also submit further evidence to support AT LEAST THREE PPC's:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Schrek

Quote

The trio of turret mounted HellStar PPCs allow the Schrek to unleash horrific firepower on a target. Also unlike other vehicles or BattleMechs mounting as many particle projection cannons as the Schrek, such as the fearsome Awesome, the vehicle mounts enough heat sinks to continuously fire all three at once from a fixed position.

While Vehicles with I.C.E. engines do not need to allocate heat for movement, the Schrek mounts 30xHS (singles) - enough to fire 3xPPC's continuously without issue. This reference to the Awesome AWS-8Q is only reduced by having TWO less SINGLE HS's than the Schrek, which means it WILL generate only an insignificant amount per Alpha (again, of 3xPPC's).

Quote

Because of its reliance on PPCs, the Awesome is able to act independently for extended periods of time. This trait is also useful in siege situations where the 'Mech can keep up a constant barrage, allowing it to win battles of attrition through bleeding an enemy dry

I reject the 2xPPC-limitation upon presenting this simple argument. Additional information can be found in official FASA documents, and also with Irian Battlemech design archives.

[Krzysztof z Bagien]

Is that Smurfy's sheet accurate? I can see that there also seems to be a heat penalty for Gauss rifle. I mean for SINGLE Gauss rifle.
LOL/facepalm

[scJazz]

JackAttack5, on 16 July 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

So I've just noticed that AC2s have a heat penalty. It wasn't mentioned in the patch notes, and I've never heard a developer mention the idea ever previously.

Here's proof on smurfy. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...eapon_ballistic

*FACEPALM*

[Nebelfeuer]

After the first few matches I must say I rather like the change. A few tweaks could be neccessary but overall i´d say the heatscale
works out quite ok. We´ll have to see if our one button mouse jockeys come up with a way to work around it in an annoying way but first impression is fine. ERLL and ERPPCC should probably be in the same group as their normal counterparts though.

[Sevronis]

From just what I've skim-read in this thread... all the players that have an issue with the new heat scaling are of course the boaters. A good pilot knows only to take the alpha shot when they have a sweet looking shot (like on the rear CT armor of another pilot who decided that standing still is smart), but NOT just to fire because you can. The entire purpose of this is not to completely prevent boating, cause yes, as others have stated, you still can, but it's main purpose is to discourage continuous alpha strikes with said weapons. I've done the boat thing myself before but I always did stagger or even just used chain fire. Honestly I don't like boating too much.

With the chassis like the 4P and the 9M, just because they only come with one type of weapon doesn't mean they should all be fired at the same time. Someone else said it right. The hunch lasers on the 4P are meant to be fired together, but the head and arm lasers are not. Just like the 2 torso PPCs on the 9M are meant to be but the arm is not. The Awesome was also always a mech known for bad heat issues. They are also two different target reticles, henceforth shots that dont line up will just be wasted shots.

I for one am glad this is finally added.

[Majed]

AC2 , GAUSS RIFLE and ER LARGE LASER also have heat scale penalty :

<Weapon id="1018" name="AutoCannon2">
<Loc nameTag="@AC2" descTag="@AC2_desc" iconTag="7"/>
<WeaponStats Health="10" slots="1" type="0" projectileclass="bullet" numFiring="1" damage="2" heatdamage="0" heatpenalty="1.0" minheatpenaltylevel="4" impulse="0.0375" heat="1.0" cooldown="0.5" ammoType="AC2Ammo" ammoPerShot="1" minRange="0" longRange="720" maxRange="2160" tons="6" duration="0.0" lifetime="10.0" speed="2000" volleydelay="0" gravity="0,0,-9.8" maxDepth="10.0"/>


<Weapon id="1021" name="GaussRifle">
<Loc nameTag="@GaussRifle" descTag="@GaussRifle_desc" iconTag="21"/>
<WeaponStats Health="3" slots="7" type="0" projectileclass="bullet" numFiring="1" damage="15" heatdamage="0" heatpenalty="3.0" minheatpenaltylevel="1" impulse="0.05" heat="1.0" cooldown="4" ammoType="GaussAmmo" ammoPerShot="1" minRange="0" longRange="660" maxRange="1980" tons="15" duration="0.0" lifetime="10" speed="1200" volleydelay="0" groupedlocally="1" ExplodeChance="0.9" InternalExplosionDmg="20" maxDepth="10.0"/>

<Weapon id="1005" name="ERLargeLaser">
<Loc nameTag="@ERLL" descTag="@ERLL_desc" iconTag="13"/>
<WeaponStats Health="10" slots="2" type="1" projectileclass="" numFiring="1" damage="9" heatdamage="0" heatpenalty="2.8" minheatpenaltylevel="3" impulse="0.0" heat="9.5" cooldown="3.25" ammoType="" ammoPerShot="0" minRange="0" longRange="675" maxRange="1350" visRange="1500" tons="5" duration="1.0" lifetime="0" speed="0" volleydelay="0.0" maxDepth="10.0"/>

Edited by Majed, 16 July 2013 - 12:21 PM.

[TheSteelRhino]

Hythos, on 16 July 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

Exxccccept... The Awesome was designed to fire all three PPC's simultaneously, with a SINGLE weapon-circuit - a-la Group Fire. I don't have my books with me, but it was absolutely described as having been designed with that specific ability in mind. That was partially why they called it ...............






wait for it....



the Awesome. Get it?
It is meant to fire THREE PPC's at one time, without any significant heat-issue, every 10 seconds. This means, that using 28xHS (singles) should not produce MUCH extra heat.

I also submit further evidence to support AT LEAST THREE PPC's:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Schrek


While Vehicles with I.C.E. engines do not need to allocate heat for movement, the Schrek mounts 30xHS (singles) - enough to fire 3xPPC's continuously without issue. This reference to the Awesome AWS-8Q is only reduced by having TWO less SINGLE HS's than the Schrek, which means it WILL generate only an insignificant amount per Alpha (again, of 3xPPC's).



I reject the 2xPPC-limitation upon presenting this simple argument. Additional information can be found in official FASA documents, and also with Irian Battlemech design archives.

So...just because it was designed to fire 3 at once doesn't mean there wasn't a price to pay for it. Read the canon books. If you fire 3 high heat weapons at once there is a price to pay. It doesn't mean you can do it constantly non stop.

So...you are saying that 6 PPC stalkers are ok just because a tank or two and the Awesome can fire 3? I think what you are missing is that the Awesome was something VERY Special...that was the only inner sphere mech at this point that had 3 PPC's. And again, that doesn't mean you could do it non stop.

[JackAttack5]

Krzysztof z Bagien, on 16 July 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

Is that Smurfy's sheet accurate? I can see that there also seems to be a heat penalty for Gauss rifle. I mean for SINGLE Gauss rifle.
LOL/facepalm

That seems silly too. Gauss is supposed to be heat neutral, or at least incredibly heat efficient. If they want to discourage boating it, fine, but going the route of heat penalties on a weapon with that niche is stupid. And alongside the AC2, mentioned nowhere in the patch notes.

Not sure just how accurate it is but I've tried out the AC2s in game (both in actual matches and training grounds) and the heat spikes all over the place, it's definitely there.

[MustrumRidcully]

JackAttack5, on 16 July 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

So I've just noticed that AC2s have a heat penalty. It wasn't mentioned in the patch notes, and I've never heard a developer mention the idea ever previously.

Here's proof on smurfy. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...eapon_ballistic

You can try it out in game, I have, and it's very noticeable.

Firstly, why? AC2 boats aren't at all overpowered. It's pretty unanimously agreed that even within Jager builds, those with PPCs and Gauss are better at the job of 4AC2 builds. The build is still good, and fun, but not at all overpowered and in need of a nerf.

It basically means that you're not supposed to equip more than 4 AC/2s ever. Because if you do, you suffer the heat penalty. And if you chain-fire them - well, you're always not using one of your AC/2s.

Sounds pretty dumb, maybe it's a mistake?

The Gauss Rifle thing makes even less sense. Firing a heat penalty on the first shot? Why not just raise the base heat of the weapon then?



I thought "BIG THINGS" was meant to be 12v12 on the test servers. Not big illogical rule choices. Seems it might be both, and makes me never wish big things for MW:O ever again. It's either not that big to me, or big in the wrong way.

[Hackintosh]

JackAttack5, on 16 July 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

So I've just noticed that AC2s have a heat penalty. It wasn't mentioned in the patch notes, and I've never heard a developer mention the idea ever previously.

Here's proof on smurfy. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...eapon_ballistic

You can try it out in game, I have, and it's very noticeable.

Firstly, why? AC2 boats aren't at all overpowered. It's pretty unanimously agreed that even within Jager builds, those with PPCs and Gauss are better at the job of 4AC2 builds. The build is still good, and fun, but not at all overpowered and in need of a nerf.

Basically yet another nail in the coffin of sustained DPS builds. High alpha forever right PGI?

Sigh.... I hope they fix that. 4x Ac2 run pretty hot the way it is. Plus you have to be careful with this build so you don't get alpha in the face while doing the sustained DPS.