21 replies to this topic

[Buenaventura Durruti]

didnt i get the sense of case or why do i only find mechs with xl engine having it ? the standard loadout of a LOT of mechs is ...well badly done in the best case, nonsense in most cases and stupid in quite some....

like the new atlas rs (c) ....lrm ammo in the head (all together 3 tons for 2xlrm15) and 2 tons of ams ammo in the legs ?! and the gauss ammo (which, as we all know, doesnt explode) in the torso but the explosive stuff where it REALLY hurts ? is this just a method to make the trials even less useable or does a 5-year-old design them ?

same with ferro and endo...nearly ALL mechs with "special" stuff happen to have ferro (which isnt used by anyone i know when he has the chance to get endo) ...why ?

the raven 3 L with case and an xl engine (!), the case not protecting anything, no ams but the beagle in the CT ? i mean thats quite the most senseless configuration i´ve ever seen
same with the centurion 9D, trebuchet 3C and so on and so on....

please fix/change that....it´s useless, its confusing new players (when every mech with an xl engine has case it HAS to be any good , right ?) and i´d prefer to not have to strip every mech to the bone, sell the xxxth engine of the same type and then build it so it does make some sense...guess other players would welcome that too..

cheers,

durruti

[Spheroid]

It allows for the creation of stock loadouts. That is reason enough.

[Buenaventura Durruti]

ok, but it would also allow the build of custom builds if you put it into a mech where it makes sense ....so your argument is rather....weird ? o_0

edit : not to mention the useage of lrm15 in the rs....sure, you CAN do it...if its a good idea is a different question

Edited by Buenaventura Durruti, 16 July 2013 - 10:46 AM.

[Escef]

The Champion Atlas's ammo placement is actually very good. Very few people shoot for the legs, and also note how heavily armored they are. You're better off trying to take out a side torso and robbing him of a weapon or two. Ammo in the head is actually the safest place for it. It's difficult to hit, you'll probably lose the component long before you take crits in it, and it is the first location the game pulls ammo from.

CASE in mechs with XL engines is an artifact from Table Top play, where repair, reload, and salvage could be genuine concerns in long running campaigns. If a mech loses the center torso due to ammo explosion the mech is considered unsalvageable, so those CASEs make it so that one can haul the mech back to the bay after the fight to either rebuild it or strip it for parts.

Use of ferro armor over endo steel is also an artifact from in-universe concerns. Endo steel requires orbital manufacturing facilities to make, which are not common in the setting, but ferro armor can be made in any ground based facility that has the tech and materials handy.

Edited by Escef, 16 July 2013 - 10:57 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

not to mention that one could refit a mech to use Ferro, whereas technically, one should NOT be able to retrofit Endo onto a mech, as that is the mechs skeleton.

[Escef]

Bishop Steiner, on 16 July 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

not to mention that one could refit a mech to use Ferro, whereas technically, one should NOT be able to retrofit Endo onto a mech, as that is the mechs skeleton.

You can, but it is ridiculously expensive and time consuming. And requires the kind of facilities needed to manufacture a mech anyway.

[Buenaventura Durruti]

thats not what i ment with the ammo placement. would you put the gauss into the center and the lrm ammo into the legs ? i doubt it, as a shot off leg would kill you while detonating (well, not) gauss ammo is perfectly safe in the whole mech. its the complete setup of mechs that makes me sometimes just ..."wonder". and the lrm15 in THAT atlas is either creative or stupid, if you see it as "wow i completly surprised the enemy by putting in weapons its not made for!"....then it might be good. i got the atlas rs when i was beta-tester and quite soon found out its not made for lrms....but if people prefer to use  it - go ahead !
i know what case does as i played the tabletop like 26 years ago and hundreds of hours of mechcommander on the amiga. but is there a need to keep _all_ stuff like it was then even when its completly sensless in THIS game ? i accept that people want it "as it was in the good old days" (and so do i - in most things) but i doubt that it helps new players to understand the game faster. and why i pay "extra" for the command console of my ddc....well i still have it cause i _might_ find a use for it some faaaar day ahead. but saying its a "special feature" in the wiki and other sources when its completly useless and charging you extra....thats a bit weird.
ps : sorry for the quote-chaos, my fat cat likes to do a sumo-slam on my keyboard when he wants attention....messed it up a bit

[Escef]

Buenaventura Durruti, on 18 July 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

thats not what i ment with the ammo placement. would you put the gauss into the center and the lrm ammo into the legs ? i doubt it, as a shot off leg would kill you while detonating (well, not) gauss ammo is perfectly safe in the whole mech. its the complete setup of mechs that makes me sometimes just ..."wonder". and the lrm15 in THAT atlas is either creative or stupid, if you see it as "wow i completly surprised the enemy by putting in weapons its not made for!"....then it might be good. i got the atlas rs when i was beta-tester and quite soon found out its not made for lrms....but if people prefer to use it - go ahead !
i know what case does as i played the tabletop like 26 years ago and hundreds of hours of mechcommander on the amiga. but is there a need to keep _all_ stuff like it was then even when its completly sensless in THIS game ? i accept that people want it "as it was in the good old days" (and so do i - in most things) but i doubt that it helps new players to understand the game faster. and why i pay "extra" for the command console of my ddc....well i still have it cause i _might_ find a use for it some faaaar day ahead. but saying its a "special feature" in the wiki and other sources when its completly useless and charging you extra....thats a bit weird.
ps : sorry for the quote-chaos, my fat cat likes to do a sumo-slam on my keyboard when he wants attention....messed it up a bit

The ammo layout in the default configuration for the Champion Atlas RS is good. Yes, I'd put ammo in the legs. I almost always put ammo in the legs. In over 3000 drops I've lost a mech to leg-based ammo explosion once or twice. People rarely shoot for the legs, especially on big mechs. I've already told you this, but you don't listen. I swear, why are you Founders so bad at this game? Maybe that's why so many of you whine so much, you think the Founder tag and your experience with the TT game should make you awesome, and when it doesn't pan out that way you figure the problem can't possibly be you. Well, guess what? The problem IS you.

As for LRMs on the RS, I'm not a fan of LRMs. But they also just so happen to be a respectable part of the meta right now, so suck it up and deal.

And you complain that the game is senseless? What's more senseless, the game, or playing a game you hate? Well, if you hate it so much, quit and go away. We won't miss you.

[Ashrok]

Escef, on 18 July 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

I swear, why are you Founders so bad at this game? Maybe that's why so many of you whine so much, you think the Founder tag and your experience with the TT game should make you awesome, and when it doesn't pan out that way you figure the problem can't possibly be you. Well, guess what? The problem IS you.

I would like to state that the OP is not representative of all Founders... I guess... I don't actually lurk around to see how other Founders are like.

Anyways on topic, I was expecting a discussion on the use of C.A.S.E. or there lack of. I honestly never run XLs in my mechs, save for my sole Jenner (F). But I don't stick ammo in my torsos, and I don't get much ammo damage from my arms either, so I find C.A.S.E. as a waste of half a ton.

And yes, ammo on legs. Seriously. I rarely get legged. Even on my mediums. Its far more common for lights and the Cicada to get legged. Most don't bother if you're not fast.

Edited by Ashrok, 18 July 2013 - 06:16 PM.

[Escef]

Ashrok, on 18 July 2013 - 06:13 PM, said:

I would like to state that the OP is not representative of all Founders... I guess... I don't actually lurk around to see how other Founders are like.

Honestly, when I see a Founder in a drop, it's generally a coin toss. He's either going to be great or suck horribly, with almost nothing in between. Every now and again I'll see 4 Founders together, and it's almost invariably a 4-man that dropped together and has voice comms. Having 4 guys that know each other's playstyles with voice comms will usually beat a PUG team like a rented mule.

[Hammerfinn]

As far as the ammo in the head, that's pretty reasonable. If you get cockpit critted you're dead anyways; not to mention that ammo in the head is used up first, so especially for long range ammo, it kinda makes sense; by the time you're where you COULD get critted, you've used up that ammo. Usually.

[General Taskeen]

Escef, on 16 July 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

You can, but it is ridiculously expensive and time consuming. And requires the kind of facilities needed to manufacture a mech anyway.

Oh do you have first hand knowledge of these Mech facilities?

[blacklp]

In lore, my memory is hazy here, in lore endo-steel was made in zero gravity?
So I imagine that in the fluff universe endo-steel would be rather costly.

Edit: Yup zero-g

Edited by blacklp, 19 July 2013 - 07:22 AM.

[Escef]

General Taskeen, on 18 July 2013 - 09:28 PM, said:

Oh do you have first hand knowledge of these Mech facilities?

Dude, I'm going by what's in the rulebooks. I don't know if you're trolling or what with that, but... Yeah.

[General Taskeen]

Escef, on 19 July 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

Dude, I'm going by what's in the rulebooks. I don't know if you're trolling or what with that, but... Yeah.

What I'm trolling is - its a game, and Battle Tech isn't real unless "role play."


But on the topic, CASE + XL hasn't been touched since Closed Beta, even though the Devs said they would "look into" making it effective. All they would have to do is make it so if something explodes in the torso section, and you have an XL there + CASE, that the engine takes 0 damage. That's something that should have been programmed before Open Beta.

[White Bear 84]

Escef, on 18 July 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

why are you Founders so bad at this game? Maybe that's why so many of you whine so much, you think the Founder tag and your experience with the TT game should make you awesome, and when it doesn't pan out that way you figure the problem can't possibly be you. Well, guess what? The problem IS you.

Who said all founders are so bad at this game? Consider that not all founders are mechwarrior veterans, the founders are just players that have had access to the game since closed beta and bought the package, it is in no way a definitive indication of skill - although you could make the assumption they would be half decent if they have been playing the game that long (but then what about beta testers who did not buy the founders package!).

What rationale makes you consider founders being the problem? Non founders whine, probably more so that founders do - its just because founders have a tag you can identify them and pick them out from the crowd. Now bear in mind a number of the founders probably are mechwarrior vets, so why would they whine? Because they have played mechwarrior games, they (generally should) know what mechwarrior is and what is to be expected of the game.

If you think the problem is US, then lets wind back the clock a bit and just forget all the beta testing and development of the game that the FOUNDERS assisted the developers in. Why would founders whine? Because they want A TOP CLASS GAME.

At the end of the day, if people were not passionate about MWO they would not 'whine', because this is merely a symptom of wanting to make the game better.

WB

[Escef]

White Bear 84, on 19 July 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

Now bear in mind a number of the founders probably are mechwarrior vets, so why would they whine?

Didn't I already answer this?

Escef, on 18 July 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

Maybe that's why so many of you whine so much, you think the Founder tag and your experience with the TT game should make you awesome, and when it doesn't pan out that way you figure the problem can't possibly be you.

Oh, yeah, I did.

[White Bear 84]

You once again miss the point:

White Bear 84, on 19 July 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

At the end of the day, if people were not passionate about MWO they would not 'whine', because this is merely a symptom of wanting to make the game better.

Its awfully naive to think founders are the only ones who 'whine' about stuff in game..

Edited by White Bear 84, 19 July 2013 - 04:46 PM.

[Escef]

White Bear 84, on 19 July 2013 - 04:46 PM, said:

Its awfully naive to think founders are the only ones who 'whine' about stuff in game..

It's awfully poor reading comprehension to think I said any such thing.

[Voidsinger]

CASE isn't about saving the mech engine. It was introduced in Battletech to save the pilot, and reduce damage to the mech.

Mechs which have XL engines and cases are using the BT record sheet locations (Centurion 9D is a great example of this).

If the left or right torsos of a Centurion 9D suffer an ammo explosion, sure the mech is out of action, but the centre torso, opposing torso, and all the contents are left intact, as is the pilot. That means repairs are cheaper, or more can be salvaged.

I know it doesn't matter in MWO, and most players just rip the CASE out, but it did matter in Battletech.