18 replies to this topic

[Iram Dei]

Large Laser Nerf.

Let me preface by saying that the new patch is amazing, and prevents the highly stupid mega ppc and ac 40 boats.

However, 4 LL is a staple build on most assaults and should NOT be nerfed. It was not op to begin with, because pinpoint damage with lasers is impossible

So here i am proposing to change the heat multiplier (up) but increase the base amount to 4, to allow catapults, the RS and most assaults to be useful.

Agree?
Disagree?

Comments are welcome!

[Tennex]

i'm not sure why they wanted to nerf lasers.. lasers were DoT and never capable of pin point alphas in ther first place lol.


but at least they kept the laser nerfs minimal.

[Jyi]

I'd be ok with 3 LL not being heat-penalized.

4 was kind of strong, but not on the level of annoyance of PPC-boats.

[Solarii]

this change nerfed not only single builds but 2 full chassis: awesome and stalker who heavily relies on multiple lasers as their primary weapons. and i'm not telling now about other stable 4LL builds such as phracts. but i wonder why 6ML in hunch's torso in ok (pgi made their opinion on that), but 3LL instead should be penalised?

[Nebelfeuer]

Because thee shall not boat big weapons.
Chainfire them as much as you like but stop demanding alpha gameplay.

If pinpoint dmg is not possible in your opinion with LL then why do you want to highten their pinpoint dmg by stacking them?

Making the tresshold 3 or 4 for LL would only result in a LL boating meta and that is equally desireable as PPC boating.
BEsides the less pinpoint acuracy on moving targets by lasers is allready compensated by they better hit chances that allow them to kill wounded mechs a lot more easiely then frontendburst weapons.

Since lasers are capable of pinpont dmg if either the target is slow/unmoving//moviing towards/away from you or your aim is good this state needs to be the basis for balancing and that means 2 LL is quite fair(especially considering that the heatpenalty is quite low for LL compared to that of PPCs)

[TripleEhBeef]

Can't you just group two sets of two lls, alternate them, and avoid the heat penalty?

[LastPaladin]

Nebelfeuer, on 16 July 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

If pinpoint dmg is not possible in your opinion with LL then why do you want to highten their pinpoint dmg by stacking them?

So we don't have to stand out in the open with our torsos facing the enemy for twice as long, just to fire the weapons these mechs were designed to fire.

Nebelfeuer, on 16 July 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

Since lasers are capable of pinpont dmg if either the target is slow/unmoving//moviing towards/away from you or your aim is good this state needs to be the basis for balancing and that means 2 LL is quite fair(especially considering that the heatpenalty is quite low for LL compared to that of PPCs)

Any weapon is capable of "pinpoint" damage, under your definition, if they just sit there, or don't use cover well, or you have very good aim. I can do that type of damage with a SRM-4s, if I just have to get the conditions right. However, that isn't really "pinpoint" damage of the kind that people were complaining about. If that is what the patch is intended to address, then they need to just make it impossible to groupfire any weapons, period.

TripleEhBeef, on 16 July 2013 - 02:34 PM, said:

Can't you just group two sets of two lls, alternate them, and avoid the heat penalty?

Sure, we can. Can't hunch pilots just chainfire their medium lasers, so that mech doesn't get a special exception? Fair is fair.

[Cest7]

Agree with OP. 4LL is a cookie cutter and should not be penalized. 5-6 is where it starts to get too strong.

[Nebelfeuer]

LastPaladin, on 16 July 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

Any weapon is capable of "pinpoint" damage, under your definition, if they just sit there, or don't use cover well, or you have very good aim. I can do that type of damage with a SRM-4s, if I just have to get the conditions right. However, that isn't really "pinpoint" damage of the kind that people were complaining about. If that is what the patch is intended to address, then they need to just make it impossible to groupfire any weapons, period.

The condition are met quite often throughout a game or do you want to tell me that most of your lasershots are not acurate enought to deliver most of their damage to the component you aimed for?

Tell you what: I will not argue against you wanting fire 3-4 LL at the same time repeatedly if you garantee that these four laser will never do more than 20 dmg to a single component per shot.

[DeaconW]

I like to meow, on 16 July 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

Dear PGI,

Rocks are OP but paper is fine.

Sincerely,

Scissors

Fixed it for you.

FWIW I predicted this would happen because of the heat scale idea. Everyone will be crowing for their favorite weapons to be buffed and their most hated to be nerfed. All they actually needed to do was end perfect convergence and restore the PPC and ERPPC to their old heat values and the alpha-snipe mata would have been dealt with.

[VikingN1nja]

So what we have to get LRM'D to death now coz we can't use large lasers that you actually have to try and target instead of the onne button warrior...applaudes sarcastically!

[Skribs]

I think the reason is because you can one-two with a 6xLL build and still do pretty good. With that said, I completely agree that 2xLL is way too low if you can do 2x PPC + 2x ER PPC with no penalty.

[AC]

6LL is not really all that viable. Have you tried it? You are dead slow, and can't carry enough HS to fire those 6LL more than twice before you shut down.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

What's the math with LL's heat scale again? I'm still not sure how to apply it yet, I'm guessing it's additive above the cap.



Anyway, I was looking at some builds trying to figure out how the penalty applies and I was wondering how this Misery build is affected by the heat scale (can also be done on a 5M), if you set three fire groups one from RA, 2nd for LA and 3rd for CT, and I still expect to keep seeing these kinds of AS7-RS builds working well also, with a similar type of weapon grouping.

And I'm not sure how big of an impact it will have on heavies that run 4 LL and have at least two weapon groups. I'm gonna try it again on my Flame to see how they feel also. So, I'm willing to take a wait and see approach for now.

[SmokinDave73]

I think they need to lift the cap from 2 to 4, no one ever complained that LL were op and as others have said you can not get a pinpoint full damage alpha with lasers over a 1 second duration its just impossible. Please Paul put LL to 4 and increase the heat penalties having LL ccapped at 2 is just ridiculous

[FREDtheDEAD]

As far as I know, no one has ever run a laser based one-shot-kill build, though the 5+ LL Stalker gets close against light or medium mech as long as 1) your target isn't moving and 2) you don't have hit registration issues which have affected lasers quite badly for some recently.

[5th Fedcom Rat]

A month ago I had a conversation with a PPC boating Stalker pilot in a match and he laughed about PPCs getting nerfed, telling me "I'll just switch back to large lasers and be just as effective".

Indeed before the PPC/ballistic hit detection buffs, LLs were the main weapon boated by Stalkers throughout Dec/Jan and they were a terror on the field because of the stalker's small profile and high arm mounts.

So I think the boating limit for LLs should REMAIN at 2 or possibly raised to 3 at most, but no higher. I like 4 LL builds because if you chain fire the lasers together, you can get a continuous beam. THAT should be the novelty of LL builds, not ridge humping alpha strikes.

.

Edited by 5th Fedcom Rat, 16 July 2013 - 10:35 PM.

[Corvus Antaka]

can you not fire 2 and then 2 .5 seconds later?

[Nebelfeuer]

you can