545 replies to this topic

[Voivode]

Thontor, on 17 July 2013 - 08:09 PM, said:

It's helping the game by penalizing high pinpoint damage builds like 4 PPCs and dual AC/20s etc which discourages them from alpha striking and encourages them to stager fire wih less damage per shot:

It therefore increases the skill cap for those builds to do that damage to one specific location in two seperate shots. And that also gives the target time to react and have a chance at avoiding that second shot or at least preventing it from hitting the same location.

It's not perfect... There are ways to corcumvent it. One of those ways is to use 2 ERPPCs and 2 PPCs. We know that will be changing... I just hope the devs are considering combining other weapon systems as well, like a gauss rifle counting as a PPC as far as the heat scale is concerned.

So yeah, there are a few builds that might circumvent the system a little, but I have a feeling those will be dealt with. And I think the system has already made a huge improvement on the high pinpoint damage problem.

I have to disagree. I think a 2PPC + 1GR build isn't really too bad on pinpoint damage because of the differing projectile speeds. Against a moving target at a decent range you tend to have the 2PPCs hit one locations and the GR hit another. I don't really think that kind of build is really a one shot unless you stand still in the open....and then that's your fault.

[MaddMaxx]

hammerreborn, on 17 July 2013 - 11:29 AM, said:

Lol it technically does. My 3 PPC Jenner got the nerfbat!! /cry

But I'm not about to complain about that at all.

You wouldn't happen to have that 3 PPC Jenner build handy?

P.S. Never mind. No armor.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 18 July 2013 - 06:17 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Derrpy, on 18 July 2013 - 03:30 AM, said:

I still cant believe people think CONVERGENCE!!!!!11!!! is a good idea, adding random spread to a game designed around

I still can't believe your parents let you use the internet.

Did you fail this much at reading comprehension during school?

Convergence or lack of convergence are not the same as random shots.

Let me explain this one more time in the most simple terms possible, since your name is Derrpy and you live up to it.

If we took out convergence completely, your weapons would shoot in a straight line from their hardpoint.

You would know EXACTLY where every weapon would go. There is no random element at all to the lack of convergence.

All it would do is create a situation where the weapons on your mech, when alpha'd would never hit the exact same spot, as they do not occupy the same space on your mech.

Now keep in mind, most people are not advocating a complete lack of convergence (some are), most are asking to elimate INSTANT PINPOINT CONVERGENCE, which is an extreme.

Extreme's are bad in games like this. We want to get away from extreme's.

[MaddMaxx]

MisterFiveSeven, on 17 July 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

Lol one shotted a SECOND pristine raven today...

I haven't had a one shot in forever. God must be telling me I'm right

Before you get to excited, can you confirm the Ravens load-out? Word is there are lots of Light units running "zero" armor to get more guns?

That makes a Small laser a one shot wonder as well. Save your Heat. lol

Edited by MaddMaxx, 18 July 2013 - 05:46 AM.

[NextGame]

Voivode, on 18 July 2013 - 05:07 AM, said:

I wouldn't call it perfect, but it is actually pretty effective at forcing variety. I've adapted the few builds I had that were affected and moved on. Is it more challenging? Yes. Is that something to get mad about? Not in my opinion.

A variety that subtracts fun from the game and adds precisely zero to it other than being an illogical and complicated nuisance.

Besides that, a new half dozen or so preferred set of builds will become the standard in short order as with ANY online game that changes its mechanics around, therefore what has this system solved? Not gameplay style, people still play in the same way as before albeit forced to use a bizarre mixture of weapons.

The fact is that these changes have added nothing positive to the game and in fact contradicted the nature of the game by breaking the viability of already lesser mechs that are chassis purely designed around boating.

[Prezimonto]

Very specifically, there should be a short delay to achieve pinpoint convergence. It would be best if it depended on several factors:
1) your speed
2) your target's speed (these then offset each other and balance between offensive and defensive power)
3) your components (dedicating space to targeting computers and C3 modules should help achieve pinpoint convergence more quickly)
4) Single firing(Chain fire with the 0.5 second delay) of weapons should always go to the exact point of your aim.

This is essentially what DocBach proposed, and it's by far the best suggestions I've heard.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Prezimonto, on 18 July 2013 - 05:50 AM, said:

Very specifically, there should be a short delay to achieve pinpoint convergence. It would be best if it depended on several factors:
1) your speed
2) your target's speed (these then offset each other and balance between offensive and defensive power)
3) your components (dedicating space to targeting computers and C3 modules should help achieve pinpoint convergence more quickly)
4) Single firing(Chain fire with the 0.5 second delay) of weapons should always go to the exact point of your aim.

This is essentially what DocBach proposed, and it's by far the best suggestions I've heard.

I don't even care if they make it that complicated. Add a 3-5 second delay to instant convergence.

Easy peasy. If you can hold your reticle over your target for 3-5 seconds, your golden.

Chain fire is perfectly accurate still.

And tweak from there if it's not enough.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 18 July 2013 - 05:54 AM.

[Yankee77]

Love the new system, and from what I've seen it certainly has a positive effect in the gameplay.

Is it perfect? No. Is it the best solution? Probably not, but I'm going to bet there is a compromise involved between complexity of implementing the solution and its effectiveness.

As it is, this system gives the dev a powerful new set of dials to fiddle around with to maintain balance. That's a good thing, no matter if it isn't the best solution.

And it's certainly had a major positive impact in the game.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Itkovian, on 18 July 2013 - 06:02 AM, said:

Love the new system, and from what I've seen it certainly has a positive effect in the gameplay.

Is it perfect? No. Is it the best solution? Probably not, but I'm going to bet there is a compromise involved between complexity of implementing the solution and its effectiveness.

As it is, this system gives the dev a powerful new set of dials to fiddle around with to maintain balance. That's a good thing, no matter if it isn't the best solution.

And it's certainly had a major positive impact in the game.

Ok so I'm going to once again ask this.

Since the new system is effectively broken right now. And is easily circumvented due to ER and Regular PPC's being separated:

Why do you feel the heat system is what is helping, instead of it being that people are once again trying to use SRM's and brawl?

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 18 July 2013 - 06:09 AM.

[3rdworld]

Itkovian, on 18 July 2013 - 06:02 AM, said:

Love the new system, and from what I've seen it certainly has a positive effect in the gameplay.

Is it perfect? No. Is it the best solution? Probably not, but I'm going to bet there is a compromise involved between complexity of implementing the solution and its effectiveness.

As it is, this system gives the dev a powerful new set of dials to fiddle around with to maintain balance. That's a good thing, no matter if it isn't the best solution.

And it's certainly had a major positive impact in the game.

They have already had a powerful set of dials.

They are called weapon stats. But sure this system way easier to understand and totally not completely arbitrary in nature.

[Mister Blastman]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 18 July 2013 - 06:08 AM, said:

Ok so I'm going to once again ask this.

Since the new system is effectively broken right now. And is easily circumvented due to ER and Regular PPC's being separated:

Why do you feel the heat system is what is helping, instead of it being that people are once again trying to use SRM's and brawl?

He must be in a lower elo bracket. In mine it was PPCs+Gauss everywhere again last night. You were dead if you took a brawler.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 18 July 2013 - 06:17 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 18 July 2013 - 05:38 AM, said:

I still can't believe your parents let you use the internet.

Did you fail this much at reading comprehension during school?

Convergence or lack of convergence are not the same as random shots.

Let me explain this one more time in the most simple terms possible, since your name is Derrpy and you live up to it.

If we took out convergence completely, your weapons would shoot in a straight line from their hardpoint.

You would know EXACTLY where every weapon would go. There is no random element at all to the lack of convergence.

All it would do is create a situation where the weapons on your mech, when alpha'd would never hit the exact same spot, as they do not occupy the same space on your mech.

Now keep in mind, most people are not advocating a complete lack of convergence (some are), most are asking to elimate INSTANT PINPOINT CONVERGENCE, which is an extreme.

Extreme's are bad in games like this. We want to get away from extreme's.

And you do not think those so called "smart" players just wouldn't simply use the best of the non-convergent builds and then the same problem exists, except there will be only 4 maybe 5 Chassis ever used?

That assume the arms on a Mech with them can converge right, or do they shoot straight out as well?

[Wieland]

I still say we need different sized hardpoints.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

MaddMaxx, on 18 July 2013 - 06:20 AM, said:

And you do not think those so called "smart" players just wouldn't simply use the best of the non-convergent builds and then the same problem exists, except there will be only 4 maybe 5 Chassis ever used?

That assume the arms on a Mech with them can converge right, or do they shoot straight out as well?

You didn't read what I wrote. I personally do not want to get rid of convergence, I want it to take a few seconds to get perfect convergence.

I want Alpha builds to have to pick their shots, and expose themselves.

Right now the mechs able to do the most defensive manuvering are Alpha builds. So the mechs with the best offense (alpha) and best defense (alpha) are the same mechs.

That is wrong.

I've also never said anything about chassis. Balance is an imperfect concept. There will always be a best.

The quest, or goal is to get to where the best and the worst aren't that far apart.

Right now what I am after is just getting to where the game isn't a 10 second gank fest. I want fights to have some meaning and thought behind them.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 18 July 2013 - 06:26 AM.

[Yankee77]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 18 July 2013 - 06:08 AM, said:

Ok so I'm going to once again ask this.

Since the new system is effectively broken right now. And is easily circumvented due to ER and Regular PPC's being separated:

Why do you feel the heat system is what is helping, instead of it being that people are once again trying to use SRM's and brawl?

And you think the only reason people are brawling now is because of SRMs? Same reason I haven't seen many PPC boats? That's very doubtful.

Yes, you can "cheat" the system a bit, until the next patch, but the flavour of the game certainly changed because of it.

[Yankee77]

3rdworld, on 18 July 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

They have already had a powerful set of dials.

They are called weapon stats. But sure this system way easier to understand and totally not completely arbitrary in nature.

As I wrote, they have ANOTHER powerful set of dials, on TOP of the already existing ones. Never mind that the weapon stats balance individual weapons only, these new dials allow them to limit and balance boating. That's a good thing.

Granted, it is definitely a complex-looking system. Hopefully they'll manage to clearly state the new restrictions and penalties with UI 2.0 (with its added info displays on weapons).

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Itkovian, on 18 July 2013 - 06:25 AM, said:

And you think the only reason people are brawling now is because of SRMs? Same reason I haven't seen many PPC boats? That's very doubtful.

Yes, you can "cheat" the system a bit, until the next patch, but the flavour of the game certainly changed because of it.

A bit? You can totally circumvent it. The good 4 PPC stalkers were already doing 2 ER PPC and 2 PPC's. So nothing changed for them this patch.

Your cause and effect view point is just flat out wrong. Of course the reason everyone is brawling is because of SRM's, have you not been reading the posts about SRM's being the lynchpin to brawling? Did you see the vote results for the poll?

People have been tearing their hair out waiting for SRM's to get a buff, and now they are all trying their best to make it work.

The Heat System has done nothing so far except mess up uneducated, bad and new players.

[MaddMaxx]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 18 July 2013 - 06:08 AM, said:

Ok so I'm going to once again ask this.

Since the new system is effectively broken right now. And is easily circumvented due to ER and Regular PPC's being separated:

Why do you feel the heat system is what is helping, instead of it being that people are once again trying to use SRM's and brawl?

So your saying that on the 30th, the system will become unbroken then? Perfect. another 12 days is not long to wait...

And if think that the supposed High Alpha ranged Snipers, noted as the "smart" or "leet" or "min/maxers" among the rest of the unwashed masses are using SRM's to brawl now you are losing your perspective good sir.

That is both unlikely and absurd. Those same players have 12 days before they will have to adjust as well. What is wrong with others doing so in advance, given we know what is coming, you know, the information the Dev "communicated" to us.

An "active" reticule may sound good and all, but if Speed is one of the casual effects, what is a fast light mech to do in order to get any form of accuracy? Slow down and the wait 3-5 seconds to get a shot? You were not being serious with that idea right?

With the (er)PPC and PPC linked, then the ranged Mechs can still snipe, but they will have to deal with the added heat.

It has been advocated since early CB. Heat is the one factor that makes the playing field fair for all, and no, not everyone is going to be a build whiz but even those who are will need to build around the Heat. Doing so causes the lose of the other factors that make a truly solid build. Less of something else, like weapons, speed or armor.

If someone wants to run a 3 PPC Jenner, LOL, go for it, but don't complain if you get one shotted by a Small Laser.

The Dev will never beat the "circumventers". Best they can do is make the game fun for the rest of the Community.

[Yankee77]

Mister Blastman, on 18 July 2013 - 06:17 AM, said:

He must be in a lower elo bracket. In mine it was PPCs+Gauss everywhere again last night. You were dead if you took a brawler.

Yes, that's a wonderful argument when people's perceptions don't match with yours. It must mean they're not as good as you, and are playing with the rest of the rubes.

[hammerreborn]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 18 July 2013 - 06:25 AM, said:

You didn't read what I wrote. I personally do not want to get rid of convergence, I want it to take a few seconds to get perfect convergence.

I want Alpha builds to have to pick their shots, and expose themselves.

Right now the mechs able to do the most defensive manuvering are Alpha builds. So the mechs with the best offense (alpha) and best defense (alpha) are the same mechs.

That is wrong.

I've also never said anything about chassis. Balance is an imperfect concept. There will always be a best.

The quest, or goal is to get to where the best and the worst aren't that far apart.

Right now what I am after is just getting to where the game isn't a 10 second gank fest. I want fights to have some meaning and thought behind them.

So you need to wait 4-5 seconds to be able to hit what you're shooting at.

Huh, now which weapons would be adversely effected by this and which ones would be even more buffed.

Oh right, everything that isn't ppcs/guass for the former and ppcs and guass for the latter.

Awesome idea, like always.