545 replies to this topic

[Stelar 7]

Short version is that I like the idea of the mechanic. I think that it is more intuitive than any of the other suggestions I have seen because it is heat and we all need to learn to manage heat. I think the LL should be capped differently, at three or four, but there are several tweaks to this mechanic that need to be made. However the idea allows pinpoint alpha strikes to remain a thing, but a thing for which ere are consequences. The consequences still need tweaking, internal damage at 100% is a good start.

I disagree in convergence being the solution. I would be ok with a cone of fire, but that leads to a less mobile game and that would suck. Other convergence ideas are more arbitrary, harder on new players and remove shooting skill as a factor. This heat mechanic stagers firing, rewarding those who can place multiple hits on he same box and rewarding those who can manuver quickly when they come under fire.

2 PPC plus gause, or double gause still rule the meta in the 8man drops I have played,along with assault mechs online, other fixes, like more dynamic goals, can bring that o heel.

I would like to see a greater consequence to poptarting, give gravity some teeth.

I would pst a longer breakdown but this thread is growing faster than I can read it. Perhaps I'll make a why I like the heat changes thread and you can all come flame me there.

[Dart Nimrod]

I'd say that it's all about tactics and combat skills. If someone can't deal with PPC or LRM boat, it doesn't mean that that they must be nerfed. I think those who satisfied with this new heat scale addition system, just want a sandpit level fight.

Edited by Dart Nimrod, 21 July 2013 - 04:20 PM.

[Dart Nimrod]

Stelar 7, on 21 July 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

...The consequences still need tweaking, internal damage at 100% is a good start...

...I would like to see a greater consequence to poptarting, give gravity some teeth...

Internal damage at 100%?.. give gravity some teeth?.. are you kidding? If this is a joke, then it's a joke of very poor taste, and if you're serious, then you must be some kind of crazy easy rider. Internal damage from more than 120% to 100% is quite enough, and giving gravity MORE teeth will simply drive jumping mechs to extinction, especially light ones. Plus, after 45 deg. patch, gravity have gained enough teeth, you know.

[Solis Obscuri]

I like that they are trying to create a limiting system, though certain parts of the system concern me; I've noticed a reduction in alpha-boating, though I think many builds will still be very effective, albeit with a small space between shots. Gauss+PPCs is still super effective. I'm withholding any strong judgements until I see how things settle out. I do still think a convergence system would be better, but I'm suspecting PGI is having issues with tuning convergence in general and that's why they aren't trying one.

[Solis Obscuri]

However, after reading Paul's Command Chair thread on the heat system my confidence is greatly diminished.

[Stelar 7]

Dart Nimrod, on 21 July 2013 - 05:03 PM, said:

Internal damage at 100%?.. give gravity some teeth?.. are you kidding? If this is a joke, then it's a joke of very poor taste, and if you're serious, then you must be some kind of crazy easy rider. Internal damage from more than 120% to 100% is quite enough, and giving gravity MORE teeth will simply drive jumping mechs to extinction, especially light ones. Plus, after 45 deg. patch, gravity have gained enough teeth, you know.

I'm an easy rider because I want a punishment for poor heat management? That is a first, harsher rules is easy mode? You will have to explain that one.

As for poptarts when you fall from more than half the height of your mech there needs to be some pain, a bit of armor damage, it can be rough on spiders, however a highlander boosting straight up then falling with no brake thrust should be causing significant damage to its legs. Burn at the bottom to decelerate, no damage.

Short version, boost up and then drop should equal break your mech, repeated abuse should leg the offender.

[Dart Nimrod]

Stelar 7, on 21 July 2013 - 07:28 PM, said:

I'm an easy rider because I want a punishment for poor heat management? That is a first, harsher rules is easy mode? You will have to explain that one.

As for poptarts when you fall from more than half the height of your mech there needs to be some pain, a bit of armor damage, it can be rough on spiders, however a highlander boosting straight up then falling with no brake thrust should be causing significant damage to its legs. Burn at the bottom to decelerate, no damage.

Short version, boost up and then drop should equal break your mech, repeated abuse should leg the offender.

I know, I shouldn't loose my temper. I was wrong and should not have to insult you. Accept my apologies, please.

Edited by Dart Nimrod, 21 July 2013 - 08:02 PM.

[Stelar 7]

Dart Nimrod, on 21 July 2013 - 08:02 PM, said:

I know, I shouldn't loose my temper. I was wrong and should not have to insult you. Accept my apologies, please.

Sure thing, and thanks.

[Dart Nimrod]

By the way, I think that falling from hight should damage internal structure, not armor. And still I can't imagine how, for example, two AC/20s on a Jagermech, mounted on different arms, far from each other, can generate extra heat when fire simultaneously.

[Alex Warden]

i like the system. it´s not meant to "stop" anything,but add a little extra weight on heatmanagement. it´s ONE good step imho,,,

and yes... poptarters should take a good ammount of falldamage.

[Stelar 7]

Dart Nimrod, on 21 July 2013 - 08:28 PM, said:

By the way, I think that falling from hight should damage internal structure, not armor. And still I can't imagine how, for example, two AC/20s on a Jagermech, mounted on different arms, far from each other, can generate extra heat when fire simultaneously.

I would actually like to see crits to the actuators, followed by internal structure damage, let them low down and turn slowly, that will make a brawler rush more threatening, and make disengage and relocate harder.

As for the jagermech, don't try to bring in real physics, battletech uses the physics that are conviennt.

[jakucha]

Stelar 7, on 21 July 2013 - 10:31 PM, said:

I would actually like to see crits to the actuators, followed by internal structure damage, let them low down and turn slowly, that will make a brawler rush more threatening, and make disengage and relocate harder.

As for the jagermech, don't try to bring in real physics, battletech uses the physics that are conviennt.

Actuator crits are confirmed already. Won't be that useful for smaller mechs but should at least make assaults slightly less annoying after their armor is gone.

[Gulinborsti]

I just watched 2 enemy mechs blown up by themselfs in one game.
It seems like people have to learn how to build there mechs and manage their heat again.
I also noticed less boats, at least the real ridiculous builds like 4-6 PPC Stalkers are seen less.
Taking into account that the new heat penalties are a rather complicated system which allows - and really needs - some more tweaking and adjustments my first impression is quite good.

[Lefteye Falconeer]

As a quick reply to those who ask "Would you explain why you think this fixed the problem?" my answer is:

- It has NOT fixed the problem yet because it is a system that is undergoing major tuning. An anti-boat system was needed. That was supposed to be hardpoint size. But for some reason at PGI are against it the same way they are against Convergence. Let's deal with it. So we are stuck with the Heat Scale system. And it is stupid to evaluate it based on the current values and multipliers since it is a work in progress. While I see why many think it won't ever be a good system (and I agree that betters ones should have been developed), I keep thinking that it is WAY better than nothing, that it DOES have a chance to be tuned into limiting boating and extreme alpha, and that my evaluation is NOT based on the actual numbers but it is based on the concept. I am pretty sure the values will be fixed and more weapons will be grouped together.

To conclude, I haven't seen many changes after the most recent patch, but I have seen some. Less AC40, which is good. Then again, as someone else said, more PPCs and Guass just under different flavours. SINCE THE HEAT SCALE SYSTEM IS A WORK IN PROGRESS, it is silly to judge it based on the values and multipliers we have now because they are obviously going to be changed.

[Amsro]

Lefteye, on 22 July 2013 - 05:42 AM, said:

As a quick reply to those who ask "Would you explain why you think this fixed the problem?" my answer is:

- It has NOT fixed the problem yet because it is a system that is undergoing major tuning. An anti-boat system was needed. That was supposed to be hardpoint size. But for some reason at PGI are against it the same way they are against Convergence. Let's deal with it. So we are stuck with the Heat Scale system. And it is stupid to evaluate it based on the current values and multipliers since it is a work in progress. While I see why many think it won't ever be a good system (and I agree that betters ones should have been developed), I keep thinking that it is WAY better than nothing, that it DOES have a chance to be tuned into limiting boating and extreme alpha, and that my evaluation is NOT based on the actual numbers but it is based on the concept. I am pretty sure the values will be fixed and more weapons will be grouped together.

To conclude, I haven't seen many changes after the most recent patch, but I have seen some. Less AC40, which is good. Then again, as someone else said, more PPCs and Guass just under different flavours. SINCE THE HEAT SCALE SYSTEM IS A WORK IN PROGRESS, it is silly to judge it based on the values and multipliers we have now because they are obviously going to be changed.

Problem is its not way better then nothing, infact nothing would have helped just as much. AC/40 was never a problem, such easy builds to counter.

They have been working on this for quite some time and still couldn't make it even remotely effective, what makes you think they will get it right in the coming months? A few simple tweaks of OP weapons would help to balance builds far more then this ALPHA ONLY punishment chart.

If you are running around spamming alpha then you should be shutting down a lot taking internal damage, no boating penalty required, scaled instead by heat, not how many of one weapon you have... silly.

[Darwins Dog]

I am liking what I've seen so far. There is more variety in the builds I've encountered lately. PPC/Gauss boats haven't caused me too much grief because they have different travel times, so they don't have the same pinpoint damage potential that a group of PPCs has. Granted I'm probably one of those underhive gamers, and not one of the super l337 pro gamers that have all the answers, so my opinion is considered worthless by many. The game is fun for me and getting better all the time. This was a good change, but others still need to be made.

Dart Nimrod, on 21 July 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

I'd say that it's all about tactics and combat skills. If someone can't deal with PPC or LRM boat, it doesn't mean that that they must be nerfed. I think those who satisfied with this new heat scale addition system, just want a sandpit level fight.

I'd say that those who are satisfied with this patch want to see more tactics and skill sets that are valid, rather than one small set of builds that dominates the game.

Edited by Darwins Dog, 22 July 2013 - 07:40 AM.

[Royalewithcheese]

Incidentally, 4 PPC builds (technically 2xPPC/2xERPPC) are apparently in until the 30th, so if you're seeing fewer 2-4 PPC builds it's not because of heat scaling.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Royalewithcheese, on 22 July 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

Incidentally, 4 PPC builds (technically 2xPPC/2xERPPC) are apparently in until the 30th, so if you're seeing fewer 2-4 PPC builds it's not because of heat scaling.

It's because of SRM's, like we've been saying.

But whatever! Heat scaling 4 life.

[Stelar 7]

jakucha, on 21 July 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

Actuator crits are confirmed already. Won't be that useful for smaller mechs but should at least make assaults slightly less annoying after their armor is gone.

That makes me very happy.

____
Cell post, can't seem to scroll to the bottom so I'm now replying to the quotes below.

Seriously, you don't think the quad PPC folk saw the writing on the wall and switched? I have seen a lot more variety on mechs that do not mount SRM so SRM changes are not the source of all, or even most, of the changes in builds. I gather you don't like the heat system but it is obvious it is having an effect. What the long term results will be are still up for grabs. You will predict doom and gloom, I am more hopeful.

Royalewithcheese, on 22 July 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

Incidentally, 4 PPC builds (technically 2xPPC/2xERPPC) are apparently in until the 30th, so if you're seeing fewer 2-4 PPC builds it's not because of heat scaling.

[Dart Nimrod]

Darwins Dog, on 22 July 2013 - 07:37 AM, said:

I'd say that those who are satisfied with this patch want to see more tactics and skill sets that are valid, rather than one small set of builds that dominates the game.

Yah? And what prevented them from seeing all that valid tactics and skill sets before this patch? This patch is just another step away from canon and even reality. If all this major and minor changes means that PGIs want to make their own canon, then I got a bad feeling about it, because I'm starting to seriously doubt that they can do something worthy. Especially compare to MWLL.