26 replies to this topic

[Purlana]

Everyone want's to run the most efficient killing machine, but what exactly is a cheese build and what isn't?

Edited by Purlana, 17 July 2013 - 11:20 AM.

[Deathlike]

I suggest you fix your poll. Voting yes/no is great if you're bored.

A cheese build, from my understanding is a generally a "subjective" issue, depending on how you feel about the FOTM.

Anything that "appears" difficult to counter and/or hard hitting can be considered a "cheese build". However, most of the time (at least 50%) the rage that exists occurs when you are not experienced enough to counter it.. which is what makes it a problem. If people were to understand the underlying mechanics of how/why a particular build is successful and/or minimizing its weaknesses, people would be just copying it... which is why the FOTM exists.

In essence... it's mostly a subjective issue, but people who decidedly don't know how to counter it usually whine about it more than they should. That is how you know of the existence of a "cheese build".

Edited by Deathlike, 17 July 2013 - 11:03 AM.

[Josef Nader]

Cheese is defined by the amount of effort it takes to pilot vs the amount of effort it takes to fight.

The pre-patch 4 PPC or 3 PPC + Gauss was cheese, as it took -far- more effort to get close to and destroy than it took the person piloting it to destroy you. It is no longer cheese, as the speed at which he can destroy you has been dropped, and that window now makes taking him out with non-sniper builds viable. AC40s and Splat Cats were never quite "cheese", but they were perhaps a little too good. They have been reigned in. If you're dying to LRM boats, I can't help you. They're really powerful if you get caught out in the open... which is what they should be. LRMs are fire support. Fire support is supposed to be really powerful but hard to use. Considering we get massive warning lights and Betty yelling in our ear every time an LRM -thinks- about launching at us, there is very little excuse for getting burned down by LRMs.

[Vassago Rain]

Purlana, on 17 July 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

Everyone want's to run the most efficient killing machine, but what exactly is a cheese build and what isn't?

Everything that beats you is cheese.
It's not cheese if you use it to beat someone. Then it's payback.

A broken character/mehanic, such as street fighter 2 Akuma, is simply broken, and playing with it grants you nothing.
Broken is always broken, and unlike what is and isn't cheese, everybody agrees on what's broken and not.

Understand the difference.

[Unbound Inferno]

The odd thing is that even though they all are valid, and reasonable builds - the gameplay mechanic makes some of them ridiculously easy to play thus being considered cheese.

The core mechanics that perpetuate the builds are at fault, not the builds themselves per se.

[Purlana]

So subjectively anything that a person considers hard to counter is a cheese build?

[FrDrake]

Whatever killed you in your last match.......bazinga

[Monky]

A cheese build is a build where you press one or two buttons while looking at the enemy and win.

[Lugh]

For purposes of these forums and this poll Everything that last killed you is Cheese!

Here is your whine.

And a healthy dose of L2p.

[Screech]

I think you really need to further define some of these builds. What do you mean by Brawler Cheese? I mean a Splat Cat is a build that is a Brawler, but not all Brawlers are Splat Cats. Same deal with an AC40.

Is a Stalker with 2x15LRM+atermis, 4xML and 2xSRM4+artemis what you call a LRM build? Or do you mean an LRM boat?

[General Taskeen]

An example is SRMs, while they should be powerful, their core mechanics makes them very easy to use a "burst of missiles" when they are high damage (thus people pack in as much SRM's as possible). When you have a bunch stacked in 3 to 6, all shooting and hitting the same spot in one massive blob of missiles, hence why SRMs won't ever be balanced unless their core mechanics are changed. Ripple Firing is one such (and the best) method to balancing high damage SRMs and has yet to be done, instead they constantly try and change their flight pattern with the blob of missiles, instead of shooting fast missiles 1 at a time in fast succession so they have to be continually aimed to achieve hits on the same spot.

[Purlana]

Screech, on 17 July 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

I think you really need to further define some of these builds. What do you mean by Brawler Cheese? I mean a Splat Cat is a build that is a Brawler, but not all Brawlers are Splat Cats. Same deal with an AC40.

Is a Stalker with 2x15LRM+atermis, 4xML and 2xSRM4+artemis what you call a LRM build? Or do you mean an LRM boat?

Modified to say boat, and took out brawlers.

[Monky]

General Taskeen, on 17 July 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

An example is SRMs, while they should be powerful, their core mechanics makes them very easy to use a "burst of missiles" when they are high damage (thus people pack in as much SRM's as possible). When you have a bunch stacked in 3 to 6, all shooting and hitting the same spot in one massive blob of missiles, hence why SRMs won't ever be balanced unless their core mechanics are changed. Ripple Firing is one such (and the best) method to balancing high damage SRMs and has yet to be done, instead they constantly try and change their flight pattern with the blob of missiles, instead of shooting fast missiles 1 at a time in fast succession so they have to be continually aimed to achieve hits on the same spot.

Additionally it would make AMS somewhat effective against SRMs - longer burst = more chance to take out missiles. Currently AMS, even buffed, is hard pressed to take out more than 1 missile in an SRM volley.

[Screech]

General Taskeen, on 17 July 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

Ripple Firing is one such (and the best) method to balancing high damage SRMs and has yet to be done, instead they constantly try and change their flight pattern with the blob of missiles, instead of shooting fast missiles 1 at a time in fast succession so they have to be continually aimed to achieve hits on the same spot.

I would advise against this as it would be a huge nerf to SRM. Take out a TBT-7m and put a SRM6 in its left chest and you can experience what ripple fire would do to SRMs, they would become the worst brawler weapon available. I think I would take both MGs and LPLs over SRMs with ripple fire.

[T a z z]

The answer to this question and all cheese build questions is simple:

'Your build is always cheese. My build is never cheese.'

Sadly, any build that people loose to seems to be declared cheese. It does not matter if the build has glaring weakness or flaws.

Edited by T a z z, 17 July 2013 - 11:42 AM.

[3rdworld]

There is no such thing as cheese. Only dead players.

[Deathlike]

3rdworld, on 17 July 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:

There is no such thing as cheese. Only dead players.

I see a lot of dead frankenmechs.

[King Arthur IV]

i think cheese build might be a build that is only/very effective at a certain range. these builds are so effective that any flaws they have can be easily looked past. cheese build occur when weapons are unbalance eg. patch when lrm one shot everything.

[General Taskeen]

Screech, on 17 July 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

I would advise against this as it would be a huge nerf to SRM. Take out a TBT-7m and put a SRM6 in its left chest and you can experience what ripple fire would do to SRMs, they would become the worst brawler weapon available. I think I would take both MGs and LPLs over SRMs with ripple fire.

I would advise it to happen, but I'm not sure people understand what I mean by ripple fire. I don't mean "ripple fire" in the sense of how missiles work now when firing from tubes that don't change according to what is slotted there (an srm6 firing 4+2 on a Jenner, for example).

What I mean is Mech Warrior 2. You remember that don't you? Or how about MW:LL?

I'm talking about very fast SRMs that shoot 1 after the other in very quick succession.

An example in the below video:

(MW:LL took the "ripple fire" concept from early games, notice how fast those missiles travel, fire more straight, and ripple fire ensuring you have to aim them)

[armyof1]

Screech, on 17 July 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

I would advise against this as it would be a huge nerf to SRM. Take out a TBT-7m and put a SRM6 in its left chest and you can experience what ripple fire would do to SRMs, they would become the worst brawler weapon available. I think I would take both MGs and LPLs over SRMs with ripple fire.

Ripple fire is without a doubt a horrible idea, simply a straight up nerf. I wish people would never mention this awful idea again.