57 replies to this topic

[Gaan Cathal]

Use an AC/10 until LBX pellet damage is set to 1.2-1.5

[Sug]

Hans Von Lohman, on 17 July 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

RIght now you only critical hit when the location is down to just the internal struction, at which point it is probably better to destroy the location than knock out the guns and gear inside it.

If the pellets could crit internal structure and not just components we'd have something there.

Dawnstealer, on 17 July 2013 - 12:40 PM, said:

Just like a shotgun, you have to be point-blank before the LB10 really shines. I run two on my Ilya and regularly blow up for 500+ damage a round.

There's damage and there's effective damage.

So you're gaining an extra ton for using the LBX in exchange for having less focused damage, that's less effective than an AC/10, that is only effective at under 100m.

Read that again.

Dawnstealer, on 17 July 2013 - 12:40 PM, said:

If you hang back just a little and wait until people are engaged, and then sweep in and pick apart weak points, blow off damaged limbs, blow off legs of light mechs, take opportune shots? You'll clean up.

That can be said of almost any config.

Oppresor, on 17 July 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

Argo, you are doing nothing wrong; I'm not sure what Mech you have your LBX fitted to, but if you are using it as a last ditch defensive weapon, primarily at ranges under 100m then you have one of the finest tools that you can take to the field.

The only suggestion that I would make, depending on your Mech type, and also based on a lot of really good advice that I was given by the community, would be to fit an AC 2 in tandem. The AC 2 fills in while the LBX reloads, it also acts as a solid backup when the LBX jams, and jam it will.

What I have described above is my secondary armament as fitted to my Atlas Sniper. This has worked really well for me.

My god.

1. See response to quote above yours.
2. The LBX does not jam. You are thinking of the Ultra Autocannon 5.


Again people. 55 shots from an LBX10 to kill the stationary, stock, Commando on the training grounds.

Edited by Sug, 17 July 2013 - 02:03 PM.

[Khavi Vetali]

With the current iteration of the LB-10X, you're doing it wrong as soon put one on your mech. It needs a combination of spread reduction, rate of fire increase, pellet damage increase or solid slug rounds to be even remotely viable. The AC10 or UAC5 right now are just plain better.

[Sug]

Gaan Cathal, on 17 July 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

Use an AC/10 until LBX pellet damage is set to 1.2-1.5

And if you increase the AC10 damage to 15 it would also be better...

They really can't increase the damage of pellets because then they'll be imbalanced at pointblank range. Damagewise I think they are fine. It's a shotgun after all. They're not supposed to be as effective at long range.

Damage is fine, but the effect is ...underwhelming. As long as the pellets spread out in any way LBX will never be as effective against armor, as a normal AC.






If you change the damage to 1.5 a pellet you'd give the LBX10 the highest DPS in the game. It would have to be nerfed in other ways, heat/ammo/cooldown etc.

I'm not opposed to a damage increase, I just don't think it will have the right effect. It will probably replace the AC20.

1.5 damage a pellet would create a weapon with 75% of the damage and 150% of the DPS of an AC20 for 30% of the heat with twice the ammo per ton. It's lighter, needs less tons of ammo to be effective, needs less heatsinks (so again lighter) and requires less slots.

2 x LBX10 vs. 2 x AC20, @ heat neutral with 40ish shots is 16 heatsinks vs. 30, and 3 vs 6 tons of ammo.

Equals a lighter, faster mech, that can fix an XL, with more ammo that runs cooler. Facehuggerville.

Ouch.

Pellet Spread

Why does everyone think the spread is crappy? It's supposed to spread out.
The pellets aren't all supposed to hit. The point of the cluster rounds it to make it easier to get a hit, against a damaged opponent, and hope that your cluster of hits gets you some crits.

If the spread were any tighter it would be much harder to hit a moving target.

I'd really like to see them adjust LBXs and SRMs. Right now an SRM6 is basically an LBX10 but lighter, with better damage, and a better effective range.

Adding the ability to switch from solid to cluster, how it's supposed to be, would probably help a bit too.

There's just no reason to use an LBX right now. Which is unfortunate since I'm a fan. : /

What is the point of the LBX if you need to get so close that the pellets form a slug?

Sug, on 15 July 2013 - 06:45 PM, said:

It's not a brawling weapon. AC/20 is for brawls. It has twice the range of an AC/20 because (don't yell at me) in TT cluster ammo was designed for crit seeking. MWO got the LBX stats from TT. There are no useful crits in MWO, ergo there is no reason to have/use the LBX at this time.

Tightening the spread turns pellets into a slug at short range ERGO why not just use a slug thrower and have it be effective at ALL ranges??

What is the point of the pellet system??

There is none.

The best option would be to give pellets a use (crit seeking) and therefore the LBX a use.

Incorporating the ability to switch from solid slugs to clusters would also be a great option but the devs quickly change the subject whenever anyone brings that up.

Edited by Sug, 17 July 2013 - 02:01 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

General Taskeen, on 17 July 2013 - 11:25 AM, said:

You're better off using AC/10's on whatever build you are using, trust me. An LB 10-X is a waste of tonnage until its core mechanics are changed (and they haven't really been changed since Closed Beta).

The LB 10-X is one of those "things" that are in a trash can currently, along with MG's, Flamers, and NARC.

However, if the LB-X gun in this game was based more on the past Mech Warrior games, no one would be telling you not to use it. Instead you'd have people teling you, "Yeah, take an LB-X gun, because it shoots even further and does more damage," because that's how it always worked in other Mech Warrior games. Its just a friendly reminder that if you want to kill things faster, with consistency every match, you're better off with a pin-point weapon.

NARC is most certainly NOT in the trash anymore... for those who know how to use it. I can screw you team way more thoroughly with it than with TAG. And my Ninja CMD with both, AND ECM? LRMpocalypse is coming for you bro. (dropped a couple of NARCs on the OPFOR , and ran like heck, called out the narced units to my lance..... 180 LRMS came sailing in on the poor soul. All the AMS in the Inner Sphere couldn't save his butt)

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 17 July 2013 - 02:17 PM.

[Wintersdark]

c0mbatphil, on 17 July 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

THIS.... 2 lb10x's, 2+ machine guns, a couple of medium lasers and as much ammo as you can cram in it. Keep with the blob and keep an unrelenting stream of metal and pew pew on whatever comes in your way.

This is ridiculous. The same applies with any build, the LBX doesn't make this work better at all.


Seriously, people, there is no situation whatsoever where the LB-X is better than an AC10. None.

Destroying internal components? The AC10 is better - with the exception of the AC20, every internal component has 10 health or less. If the AC10 hits internal structure, it can crit 1-3 components for 10 damage each. This destroys each component hit. The LB-X? Each pellet that hits has a chance to crit up to 3 components for 1 damage each. This chance is slightly higher than the AC10 (which is 25/12/8) but those individual crits are only spreading 1 damage hits around those components. The more components in the target section, the less likely any are to be destroyed. It's EXTREMELY unlikely to destroy a component on a structural hit with an LB-X.

Up close in a brawl? They are comparable, though the LB-X will still tend to spread damage, while the AC20 will always hit one component.

As soon as ranges spread out, the LB-X becomes utterly useless. Even at 270m it's completely garbage.

The AC10 is still dealing 10 damage per hit out to 450m, and doing 5 damage out around 800m. The LB-X? lol.

---

But Wintersdark! I have a 2xLB-X AC10 Jag, and I do very well in it!

Welcome to Elo! You can do "well" in any build. Any one. It doesn't matter how trollish. See, the matchmaker decides your a terrible player, and puts you in with the Underhive. Then you can run a bad build and clean house. You can run nothing but stock mechs, and if you do it long enough you'll start doing "well".


Seriously, though, the LB-X is better than it was, but it's still a bad weapon. In all honestly, even the AC/10 isn't spectacular. It's not bad, but it's... Very average. You're usually better off running a UAC5, though I understand how some find the jamming mechanic tough to work with.

[Wintersdark]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 July 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

NARC is most certainly NOT in the trash anymore... for those who know how to use it. I can screw you team way more thoroughly with it than with TAG. And my Ninja CMD with both, AND ECM? LRMpocalypse is coming for you bro. (dropped a couple of NARCs on the OPFOR , and ran like heck, called out the narced units to my lance..... 180 LRMS came sailing in on the poor soul. All the AMS in the Inner Sphere couldn't save his butt)

Man, I got absolutely wrecked by a NARC light a few days ago. He'd run and hide, only pop out long enough to NARC me again now and then. Every time he NARC'd me, missiles would fly in from several different directions. I couldn't get cover from all of them, or leave the sparse cover I had for fear of eating even more missiles.

I figure he was either paired with 3 LRM boats, or a couple + random puggies who were following his NARC beacons... but omg.

It's way, way more dangerous than TAG. You don't see the laser flipping around giving the TAG mech away, and he can just NARC you then run. It's brutal.

[Gaan Cathal]

Sug, on 17 July 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

And if you increase the AC10 damage to 15 it would also be better...

They really can't increase the damage of pellets because then they'll be imbalanced at pointblank range. Damagewise I think they are fine. It's a shotgun after all. They're not supposed to be as effective at long range.

It's not effective at short range either. There is no range, none at all, that it's even equal to an AC/10. If you increased damage per pellet then it'd be superior to the AC/10 at short ranges, and inferior at longer ranges. Like a shotgun. Right now it's just....bad.

[General Taskeen]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 July 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

NARC is most certainly NOT in the trash anymore... for those who know how to use it. I can screw you team way more thoroughly with it than with TAG. And my Ninja CMD with both, AND ECM? LRMpocalypse is coming for you bro. (dropped a couple of NARCs on the OPFOR , and ran like heck, called out the narced units to my lance..... 180 LRMS came sailing in on the poor soul. All the AMS in the Inner Sphere couldn't save his butt)

News at 11. NARC is still trash.

[Sug]

General Taskeen, on 17 July 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

News at 11. NARC is still trash.

What's the damage limit on Narc? 30? If it was only missile damage and not any damage Narc might have a purpose. Bishop you're probably better off popping a UAV than narcing.

[DarkDevilDancer]

I have one mech I use lbx on, my centurian I use it with 2 mlas and a trio of streaks.

I've tried a regular ac10, gave uac 5 a go but I always due worse than I do with an lbx 10, it puzzles me to no end but what works works I suppose.

[Bishop Steiner]

Sug, on 17 July 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

What's the damage limit on Narc? 30? If it was only missile damage and not any damage Narc might have a purpose. Bishop you're probably better off popping a UAV than narcing.

Sure it takes 30 before its destroyed. Of course if 180 is on the way, it still is hitting before the NARC is destroyed (ain't like those other 150 pts magically disappear or lose their trajectory over .05 milliseconds). And it doesn't require line of sight. My Ninja has UAV, TAG and NARC, and if you haven't figured out how to use NARC to wreck the other team, you been sniffing PPCs too long.

Dedicated spotters are what keeps LRMageddon from being the no skill snore fest that PPCgeddon was. Those Spotters gotta have skill! (And yes, it works even better if you got a SPider with TAG too, since the bloody things are still invulnerable)

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 17 July 2013 - 04:02 PM.

[Aeten]

LB 10-X AC is awesome, but to utilize its full potential you need speed and a variety of weapons to strip armor. My best experience with it was on my 127 kph Cicada-3M along with 4 medium lasers. 2 laser alphas into the back of a mech (easy to get around with speed) and the armor is gone, then just start pounding with LB 10-X (no heat buildup) and they are cored in 2-3 shots guaranteed. It's also effective to hit smaller, faster mechs because of the spread.

[Wintersdark]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 July 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

Sure it takes 30 before its destroyed. Of course if 180 is on the way, it still is hitting before the NARC is destroyed (ain't like those other 150 pts magically disappear or lose their trajectory over .05 milliseconds). And it doesn't require line of sight. My Ninja has UAV, TAG and NARC, and if you haven't figured out how to use NARC to wreck the other team, you been sniffing PPCs too long.

Dedicated spotters are what keeps LRMageddon from being the no skill snore fest that PPCgeddon was. Those Spotters gotta have skill! (And yes, it works even better if you got a SPider with TAG too, since the bloody things are still invulnerable)

And what happens, if you're facing a good group like that, is just as the first volley is hitting, the second volley is launching and the ninja commando lights the target up with his TAG to ensure the lock isn't lost. He's pretty safe then, what with hundreds of LRM's smashing his target apart.

Aeten, on 17 July 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

LB 10-X AC is awesome, but to utilize its full potential you need speed and a variety of weapons to strip armor. My best experience with it was on my 127 kph Cicada-3M along with 4 medium lasers. 2 laser alphas into the back of a mech (easy to get around with speed) and the armor is gone, then just start pounding with LB 10-X (no heat buildup) and they are cored in 2-3 shots guaranteed. It's also effective to hit smaller, faster mechs because of the spread.

Again, an AC10 would do the same job better.

The LB-X is no better at coring mechs than anything else. It does the same damage to armor as it does to structure. If a weapon is not good against armour, it's not good against internal structure either.

[WVAnonymous]

I will raise a new point: LBX-10 sounds great. (Hate the new PPC sound).

And it works OK if you pair it with something like 2 LPLs and 3 SRM6+Artemis and just keep 1,2,3-ing along. Get all the armor off and inside of 50 meters it's all good.

I should also mention my 0.53 KDR about now...

[Sug]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 July 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

Dedicated spotters are what keeps LRMageddon from being the no skill snore fest that PPCgeddon was.

If you're the only spotter on the team than Narc works. If anyone is brawling with the enemy they'll "kill" your narc way before any missiles hit. Which kinda blows : /

Aeten, on 17 July 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

LB 10-X AC is awesome, but to utilize its full potential you need speed and a variety of weapons to strip armor.

Let me be clear, the LBX has ZERO synergy with other weapons. It's all in your heads people. Facehugging your opponent to make your LBX "ok" is not synergy.

WVAnonymous, on 17 July 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

I will raise a new point: LBX-10 sounds great. (Hate the new PPC sound).

And it works OK if you pair it with something like 2 LPLs and 3 SRM6+Artemis and just keep 1,2,3-ing along. Get all the armor off and inside of 50 meters it's all good.

I too love the sound and look of the LBX.

Tired of posting it over and over but flip back till you see the vid where it takes 55 shots from an LBX to kill a Commando at 270m.

It's like completely stripped of armor around the 40th shot but it just wont die. Because pellets can only crit components and that doesn't help you kill a mech.

There's no point in getting to 50m to make your pellets act like a slug when you can just use an AC/10 and be effective at any range.

[Wintersdark]

Sug, on 17 July 2013 - 05:59 PM, said:

Let me be clear, the LBX has ZERO synergy with other weapons. It's all in your heads people. Facehugging your opponent to make your LBX "ok" is not synergy.

I too love the sound and look of the LBX.

There's no point in getting to 50m to make your pellets act like a slug when you can just use an AC/10 and be effective at any range.

This, in a nutshell.

It's just a broken weapon. It's plain bad.

---

But, like the machine gun and the flamer, it's tons of fun to use. I hate that my three favourite weapons are all trash.

[Kyynele]

I run a 2x LBX, 2x ML and a 340XL on my Firebrand. Compared to AC10 the LBX saves just enough weight so that I don't have to skimp much on armor, ammo or speed. It runs very cool, and maybe because of the spread and general ineffeciency in actual killing, I average noticeably higher damage numbers than on my other Jagers. Somewhat surprisingly, it also has the best KDR out of my 4 Jagers. Go figure.

I initially put the LBXs on it as a joke just because they looked damn cool, but it's become my #1 choice for fun games.

Also, every time I top the charts I get to tell people they got LBXd.

Edited by Kyynele, 17 July 2013 - 06:14 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

LBX-AC/10 would be awesome if equipment and structure had less health, but the current "critting system" renders the LBX-AC/10 non-viable as a critting weapon.

You see, most weapons/equipment have 10 health, meaning only a critical hit from a PPC, AC/10, Gauss, or AC/20 would be enough to "Crit-it out" in one shot. The LBX-AC/10 delivers a large number of 1dmg pellets, so even if several of them crit the same weapon, the item being critically-hit will not be critted-out of commission.

The ONLY use of an LBX-AC/10 at this time is to shoot at small Fast-movers that you normally would miss with a solid slug(or shooting injured components on Mechs that you would normally miss and hit an adjacent component). The LBX-AC/10 in MW:O is a non-critting weapon, whereas the AC/10 is a critting weapon.
.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 17 July 2013 - 06:21 PM.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

LBX10 works just fine for me. It has always been a close range weapon, so if you have good speed and are using a short/medium range brawling config it does just fine at 150m or less. Combined with srm's you can strip armor off a mech real quick and your lasers will finish them off. Just tested against a Catapult in testing grounds at exactly 100m and it took 12 shots to kill it. Its a decent weapon because it generates less heat and weighs less than some of the ac weapons out there.

If you are not a close range brawler then dont even bother with it, and even then, there is usually better options for most mech's out there ( AC20 if you have the tonnage/cooling ).