54 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Homeless Bill, on 18 July 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

They are trying to get rid of the ridiculous, 40-point alpha. They failed. PPC boats aren't a bad thing, but they've got to have some semblance of balance. That video doesn't even demonstrate skilled piloting - I was alpha striking just for the sake of testing. With a little fire discipline, it would have been even easier.

Sure, newbies will cook themselves, but they weren't the problem: it's the good pilots that make PPC Stalkers unbearable. It's the competitive teams running eight jumpsnipers. I'm not worried about Joe Schmoe and his 6xPPC Stalker - I'm worried about deforce, doones, Soy, and the like. The last thing we needed was a nerf to new players.

The funny thing is... the "majority" believes the heat fix is working... then wait until a tourney rolls along (this weekend!)... watch the cheese in full action and we'll be back where we started before patch day.

[Thecure]

Homeless Bill, on 18 July 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

They are trying to get rid of the ridiculous, 40-point alpha. They failed. PPC boats aren't a bad thing, but they've got to have some semblance of balance. That video doesn't even demonstrate skilled piloting - I was alpha striking just for the sake of testing. With a little fire discipline, it would have been even easier.

Sure, newbies will cook themselves, but they weren't the problem: it's the good pilots that make PPC Stalkers unbearable. It's the competitive teams running eight jumpsnipers. I'm not worried about Joe Schmoe and his 6xPPC Stalker - I'm worried about deforce, doones, Soy, and the like. The last thing we needed was a nerf to new players.

What if instead of getting into complicated balancing or convergance/targeting issues, they changed matchmaking with a lobby. So you join one, then you need to choose your mech. For a valid drop there needs to be two of every weight class. Then only one mech is allowed to have 3 or more PPCs. Only one mech with JJs AND PPC/Gause build... Then you might have a rule about only one mech having 40 or more lrms. What i'm trying to say is figure out what the most extreme builds are and allow only one per team.

[Homeless Bill]

Thecure, on 18 July 2013 - 12:38 PM, said:

What if instead of getting into complicated balancing or convergance/targeting issues, they changed matchmaking with a lobby. So you join one, then you need to choose your mech. For a valid drop there needs to be two of every weight class. Then only one mech is allowed to have 3 or more PPCs. Only one mech with JJs AND PPC/Gause build... Then you might have a rule about only one mech having 40 or more lrms. What i'm trying to say is figure out what the most extreme builds are and allow only one per team.

So one guy gets to be a cheese monster and at least a few people are forced to run 'mechs they don't want to run?

Here's the thing: I'm in total support of pushing people to run mediums and lights instead of assaults, but I don't think forcing people is the right way to do it. Limiting cheese is simply avoiding the problem. It's a lot like hardpoint restrictions as a solution to cheese: 90% of the time, it works every time.

To me, the game should be balanced in a way that no potential matchups need to be avoided. 12 4xPPC Stalkers shouldn't make people **** their pants any more than 12 Atlases. I'd like more balanced tonnage, but the game shouldn't be absolutely broken without it.

Additionally, if you limit the cheese to one per team, what happens when Mighty Cheese Man is a hell of a lot better than PUGNasty? It just means that one player gets to dominate the battlefield unopposed and unequaled.

Cheese needs to die - not be limited arbitrarily.

[keith]

Homeless Bill, on 18 July 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

So one guy gets to be a cheese monster and at least a few people are forced to run 'mechs they don't want to run?

Here's the thing: I'm in total support of pushing people to run mediums and lights instead of assaults, but I don't think forcing people is the right way to do it. Limiting cheese is simply avoiding the problem. It's a lot like hardpoint restrictions as a solution to cheese: 90% of the time, it works every time.

To me, the game should be balanced in a way that no potential matchups need to be avoided. 12 4xPPC Stalkers shouldn't make people **** their pants any more than 12 Atlases. I'd like more balanced tonnage, but the game shouldn't be absolutely broken without it.

Additionally, if you limit the cheese to one per team, what happens when Mighty Cheese Man is a hell of a lot better than PUGNasty? It just means that one player gets to dominate the battlefield unopposed and unequaled.

Cheese needs to die - not be limited arbitrarily.

bill did u ever play on any MW4 servers that had tonnage limits? i'm going to guess no. the ppl who took big mechs did not live long. they were primed first because they were slower and were not in best location when the faster med to heavy got in best locations. this assumes PGI can balance the game right. the better pilots took only heavy and meds, and assault if a certain map called for it. mind u MW4 had a bit more open maps and more of a selection of maps.

[FrDrake]

Deathlike, on 18 July 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

The funny thing is... the "majority" believes the heat fix is working... then wait until a tourney rolls along (this weekend!)... watch the cheese in full action and we'll be back where we started before patch day.

If there is a tournament I will likely play king cheese and just suck up the laughable 7 heat penalty I'll endure with it.

[Ph30nix]

MadCat02, on 17 July 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

4 PPC - 40 damage every 2 seconds on a single area . With a proper build you can shoot 4 times without overheating .


4 Large lasers + Gause - 51 damage in a single area . With good managment you shouden't overheat at all .

..............................................................................

Duel LB10 takes 22 tons and does 4 damage on center torso at long range .

Like sereously itll take you 50 bullets to kill assault mech .

Also its not dps efficient to have 20 damage for 22 tons . So theres is no long or close advantage
.............................................................................

Why use srms when you can get more double heatsinks and shoot your lasers twice as often , at long range and with focused fire ?

because LB10 is just so much friggin fun..... too bad it does suck a hairy one

and SRM's are a pretty good weapon, true they arent great at pin point damage but i view it sort of like an explosive shotgun i have a very good chance to hit and do damage across a larger area of the enemy mech.

[Deathlike]

FrDrake, on 18 July 2013 - 12:58 PM, said:

If there is a tournament I will likely play king cheese and just suck up the laughable 7 heat penalty I'll endure with it.

Same here. In fact, I await the QQ that will occur during the tourney. They will be delicious.

[Trauglodyte]

ZonbiBadger, on 18 July 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

That's the point though isn't it? It requires more skill and thought to run ppc boats now. They never wanted to eliminate them.

It doesn't take that much more skill and thought. You just have to be something better then a drooling d-bag.

[Homeless Bill]

keith, on 18 July 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

bill did u ever play on any MW4 servers that had tonnage limits? i'm going to guess no. the ppl who took big mechs did not live long. they were primed first because they were slower and were not in best location when the faster med to heavy got in best locations. this assumes PGI can balance the game right. the better pilots took only heavy and meds, and assault if a certain map called for it. mind u MW4 had a bit more open maps and more of a selection of maps.

Neg. And I won't argue about whether it will dramatically improve the game - it will. But just like hardpoint restrictions, I see it as a sweep-it-under-the-rug solution to this particular problem. I'd love to see balanced matches, but I dislike the idea of trying to achieve weapon balance that way.

It's not even about right now. The PPC Stalker, the Cheese King 732, the AC/40 builds, the Splatcat - none of them at their worst hold a candle to Clan 'mechs. I am adamantly in favor of a long-term solution to get in front of balance problems. The whack-a-mole/catch-up game with balance is a waste of both players' and developers' time.

[Slate Slabrock]

FrDrake, on 18 July 2013 - 12:58 PM, said:

If there is a tournament I will likely play king cheese and just suck up the laughable 7 heat penalty I'll endure with it.

Please don't try to pin the blame of playing a cheese build on a tournament, it would happen either way.

[Lord of All]

My dual LBX, 3 srm6 build is happy.

[Erata]

SRMs are in a way better place, but I don't think it'll bring back Mediums as viable, even in upper-level ELO pugs because Mediums are just way too fragile, outside of good pilot in a zombieCent anyways. Plus, there's some emphasis on the language the devs have used saying that the SRM damage buff is temporary while HSR/hit registration on the weapon's looked into.

I miss the oscillating wave pattern SRMs had. It made the weapon more interesting to use. I understand why they changed it though:
because people used their thinky brains and figured out the pinpoint ranges so they could aim outside of face-hug range.

LBXes are so trash though and will be until the devs decide to break further away from lore in the interest of further buffing brawling.
Why are LBXes trash?!!?!? ..because they spread damage too much, that's the entire reason. They take longer on average than other weapons to disable a robot.

Edited by Erata, 18 July 2013 - 05:00 PM.

[Blackadder]

You use SRM's if you want to play a medium, at 2 damage per missile, they are viable again in tonnage limited mechs. LBX will never be a good weapon, until PGI allows it the ability to switch ammo from solid to pellets.

[keith]

Homeless Bill, on 18 July 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

Neg. And I won't argue about whether it will dramatically improve the game - it will. But just like hardpoint restrictions, I see it as a sweep-it-under-the-rug solution to this particular problem. I'd love to see balanced matches, but I dislike the idea of trying to achieve weapon balance that way.

It's not even about right now. The PPC Stalker, the Cheese King 732, the AC/40 builds, the Splatcat - none of them at their worst hold a candle to Clan 'mechs. I am adamantly in favor of a long-term solution to get in front of balance problems. The whack-a-mole/catch-up game with balance is a waste of both players' and developers' time.

yes i agree. the devs are wasting their time trying to balance a meta that is all assaults if they will put in a weight balance at some point. if an assault mech is an uncommon thing in 2 months, what is the point of going through and adding heat panties? a weight balance should have been one of the first thing they worked, before elo.

clan mechs bring in a whole other problem. their meds can pack the punch of heavy. if i remember right they always want full servers, so thats 12 clan mechs. even with a weight balance that can be a lot of firepower with their meds.

[SubRyan]

I quite like my brawler D-DC

2 MPL
2 LB 10-X
3 SRM 6
BAP
ECM
AMS
STD 300
12 DHS
3 tons LB 10-X ammo
3 tons SRM ammo
1 ton AMS ammo

It isn't going to kill anything outright without suffering some serious damage, but using it like how you should use assaults (supporting mediums and heavies) you can quickly make the targeted mech quite useless (or get lucky with an ammo explosion)

I do see LB's becoming much more useful once crits affect actuators and gyros

[Captain Stiffy]

The LB 10-X Autocannon is the most underrated weapon in the game.

An Atlas D-DC is capable of packing 2 of them.

Just got one thing to say: Thousand plus damage and hundred plus points matches and that's not a retarbed lie like most people tell about their loadouts match damage.

2xLB10-X
2xLL
3xSSRM2
STD 300

Epic win. Devastate everything.

Edited by Captain Stiffy, 18 July 2013 - 06:49 PM.

[Deathlike]

keith, on 18 July 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

clan mechs bring in a whole other problem. their meds can pack the punch of heavy. if i remember right they always want full servers, so thats 12 clan mechs. even with a weight balance that can be a lot of firepower with their meds.

Clan ERMeds will be the most OP whined about weapon of choice...

I await that day.

[Captain Stiffy]

SubRyan, on 18 July 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:

I quite like my brawler D-DC

2 MPL

I always felt like an Atlas with any medium lasers looked like a ***** on the battlefield and that it attracted unwanted agro. What do you think?

[Trauglodyte]

keith, on 18 July 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

yes i agree. the devs are wasting their time trying to balance a meta that is all assaults if they will put in a weight balance at some point. if an assault mech is an uncommon thing in 2 months, what is the point of going through and adding heat panties? a weight balance should have been one of the first thing they worked, before elo.

The new heat penalty isn't there to stop cheese boating. What it is there to do is to make players 1) think about what they're doing by 2) forcing them to pay attention to heat scaling. It is also a slightly devious, though wasted effort, to get people to use balanced builds. It is working, to a small extent, but it will only have a greater impact once heat actually has a negative causality to the game beyond shutting down and when weapons are better balanced as a whole. Bill wrote up a nice thesis on a blooming reticle for boating situations and such and it is a good idea on one end of the spectrum. But, on the opposite end of the spectrum sits overall heat which has no impact on this game at all. Movement, heat, and recoil all need to have a meaningful relation to what you're doing. Until that happens, the game won't ever be balanced and the Clans will continue to be a nightmare in the waiting.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 18 July 2013 - 06:59 PM.

[SubRyan]

Captain Stiffy, on 18 July 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

I always felt like an Atlas with any medium lasers looked like a ***** on the battlefield and that it attracted unwanted agro. What do you think?

I have to be careful to not engage anything outside of 300m, otherwise I'm a kill waiting to happen. Besides I find the pulse laser more effective trying to get that red CT to pop