56 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

hammerreborn, on 18 July 2013 - 03:19 PM, said:

I'm not aware of every other mechwarrior using TT values for everything, firing every 10s, and hitting random locations.

To be Honest I don't remember them having pin point fire, and Solaris cyclic times. You fired build up heat and your Sinks actually worked. If I fired 30 points of heat and had 33 Sinks I could fire again in a couple seconds while my sinks did their job. I could build my Mechs as I used them on TT with all the advantages and disadvantages.

[Unbound Inferno]

I recall I think MW2. So long as Heat dissipation matched what the weapons generated you never had a problem. The rest was cycle times and point and click shooting.

[3rdworld]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 July 2013 - 03:26 PM, said:

To be Honest I don't remember them having pin point fire

I know 3 & 4 did. I don't remember 2 that well.

Also 4 is considerably more divergent from TT than MWO.

Edited by 3rdworld, 18 July 2013 - 03:31 PM.

[Orzorn]

3rdworld, on 18 July 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

I know 3 & 4 did. I don't remember 2 that well.

Also 4 is considerably more divergent from TT than MWO.

Mechwarrior 2 had pinpoint firing.

This entire argument is idiotic because the opposition seems to be "Well its TT so it OBVIOUSLY (with no real reasons given) doesn't work in real time!".

You know, like how our heat cap being raised by heat sinks (something that didn't happen in the TT) works right now, what with huge alphas coming out of that? Like how no heat penalties means we can ride 99% heat and and still shoot and run perfectly?

I don't want a straight TT translation, but the TT had good ideas and its had them for years. MWO is clearly showing just how great its made up rules are, what with builds existing that never, ever should have existed (6 PPC stalker) thanks to that huge heat cap. 6 PPCs would have made you go over your heat cap by DOUBLE in the TT.

Something is clearly wrong with the heat system, and PGI's most recent attempt barely did anything to actually affect the fact that PPCs are still one of the most efficient weapons on the field.

[MasterErrant]

hammerreborn, on 18 July 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

Because TT sucks in a real time game?

the TT rules do not apply one to one. in a sim. but if they were going to drop the heat system they. should have started from scratch on the whole weapon/.mech design system. w=hitout a real heat system weapons innate balancing factors become moot.
In table top inner xphere
ERPPCs are crap weapons. with no heat balance and reduced het they are balance destroying. but the problem still isn't the PPCs it the lack of concrete penalties for overheating.

[3rdworld]

Orzorn, on 18 July 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

Mechwarrior 2 had pinpoint firing.

This entire argument is idiotic because the opposition seems to be "Well its TT so it OBVIOUSLY (with no real reasons given) doesn't work in real time!".

You know, like how our heat cap being raised by heat sinks (something that didn't happen in the TT) works right now, what with huge alphas coming out of that? Like how no heat penalties means we can ride 99% heat and and still shoot and run perfectly?

I don't want a straight TT translation, but the TT had good ideas and its had them for years. MWO is clearly showing just how great its made up rules are, what with builds existing that never, ever should have existed (6 PPC stalker) thanks to that huge heat cap. 6 PPCs would have made you go over your heat cap by DOUBLE in the TT.

Something is clearly wrong with the heat system, and PGI's most recent attempt barely did anything to actually affect the fact that PPCs are still one of the most efficient weapons on the field.

Crits, & heat are both idiotic.
weapons are way to close together in stats to really differentiate them.
Max armor values. Additional armor not being able to take up crits.
mechs having windshields/heads.

the list goes on and on.

Its cool you guys like TT, I have no problems with that, but to pretend it was some sort of mesiah amungst games is rediculous. Its systems are old and tired; in truth should have been completely revamped. They weren't because the TT crowd was one of the largest original supporters of MWO, and probably purchased the majority of founders packages.

Also a 6 PPC stalker wouldn't overheat in a single shot. See Masakari, its 4 erppc generate the same heat.

edit: probably shouldn't have posted this, it is bound to start some rage inducing muh TT! reponses. I am just tired of seeing all the "TT will save us!" threads.

Edited by 3rdworld, 18 July 2013 - 03:58 PM.

[Unbound Inferno]

3rdworld, on 18 July 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:

Crits, & heat are both idiotic.
weapons are way to close together in stats to really differentiate them.
Max armor values. Additional armor not being able to take up crits.
mechs having windshields/heads.

the list goes on and on.

Its cool you guys like TT, I have no problems with that, but to pretend it was some sort of mesiah amungst games is rediculous. Its systems are old and tired; in truth should have been completely revamped. They weren't because the TT crowd was one of the largest original supporters of MWO, and probably purchased the majority of founders packages.

Also a 6 PPC stalker wouldn't overheat in a single shot. See Masakari, its 4 erppc generate the same heat.

Crits & Heat are taken from the Battletech numbers ya know.

Its the failure to translate the BT numbers into a real-time simulation whree the heat dissipation, heat cap and weapons with recharges screw everything up.


In Battletech you couldn't fit enough on an assault to allow it to fire 3 ERPPC at once, and only marginally use 4 PPC. Any more and you are overheating by drastic ammounts as you give up HS space to mount the weapon that generates heat.

[3rdworld]

Unbound Inferno, on 18 July 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

Crits & Heat are taken from the Battletech numbers ya know.

Its the failure to translate the BT numbers into a real-time simulation whree the heat dissipation, heat cap and weapons with recharges screw everything up.


In Battletech you couldn't fit enough on an assault to allow it to fire 3 ERPPC at once, and only marginally use 4 PPC. Any more and you are overheating by drastic ammounts as you give up HS space to mount the weapon that generates heat.

That is why I said the systems should have been revamped. also a masakari carries 4 ERPPCs, with 20 DHS. generates 60 heat and dissipates 40. If you were good on the dice you ended with 20/30 heat. so it is very possible to shoot 4 ERPPCs in a single turn.

[Joseph Mallan]

3rdworld, on 18 July 2013 - 04:01 PM, said:

That is why I said the systems should have been revamped. also a masakari carries 4 ERPPCs, with 20 DHS. generates 60 heat and dissipates 40. If you were good on the dice you ended with 20/30 heat. so it is very possible to shoot 4 ERPPCs in a single turn.

Dont forget the Warhawk also had a Targeting Computer and could pinpoint that 60 damage into one location, just like a MWO Stalker

[Sturmforge]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 July 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

Dont forget the Warhawk also had a Targeting Computer and could pinpoint that 60 damage into one location, just like a MWO Stalker

That is also if you called the shot which gave a huge penalty to hit.

[Unbound Inferno]

3rdworld, on 18 July 2013 - 04:01 PM, said:

That is why I said the systems should have been revamped. also a masakari carries 4 ERPPCs, with 20 DHS. generates 60 heat and dissipates 40. If you were good on the dice you ended with 20/30 heat. so it is very possible to shoot 4 ERPPCs in a single turn.

Good point.

[Orzorn]

3rdworld, on 18 July 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:

Its cool you guys like TT, I have no problems with that, but to pretend it was some sort of mesiah amungst games is rediculous.

Please do not put words in my mouth.

Quote

Its systems are old and tired; in truth should have been completely revamped. They weren't because the TT crowd was one of the largest original supporters of MWO, and probably purchased the majority of founders packages.

Many RECGONIZED that fact in closed beta. We gave as many ideas as we could to help PGI along, and they instead chose to implement the TT "rules" first (and subsequently leave like half of the most important ones out) and so MWO's base was messed up from the start. Because instead of starting from a base purely made of (flawed) TT rules that the answers to balance have been suggested, made, and even implemented for YEARS, they chose to partially implement the system, meaning new ideas had to be created.

Like I said, is PGI's idea of +2 heat cap for DHS helping them out right now?

Quote

Also a 6 PPC stalker wouldn't overheat in a single shot. See Masakari, its 4 erppc generate the same heat.

From Sarna:
"While unable to fire all of the ER PPCs at once it could use a volley fire strategy to manage its heat."

Let me check the rule book for how the turn was laid out...

Ah, here we go:
" The player keeps track of his ’Mech’s heat
points using the column of boxes on the ’Mech record sheet labeled
Heat Scale. The Heat Scale records heat levels from 0 to 30 heat
points."

Regardless, the point isn't about the Masakari, but that the heat cap was indeed 30. Because MWO is not the TT (As you desire), the Masakari would actually NOT be able to not suffer from the heat, because it builds up heat instantly and dissipates it over time, whereas in the TT, you essentially both build and dissipate instantly (per turn, that is), meaning that in MWO, 4 ERPPC alpha strikes would not be possible.

So with a 30 point heat cap, any mech would be limited to 3 PPCs and 2 ERPPCs, so long as they were 10 and 15 heat.

Edited by Orzorn, 18 July 2013 - 04:17 PM.

[FupDup]

Speaking of ERPPCs and heat dissipation in TT, does anybody remember the Hellstar? You know, that Dark Age 95 ton Clan assault mech with quad ERPPCs and 30 DHS to keep it heat neutral, with the speed of a heavy and a hair less armor than an Atlas? Now that thing would be scary to face (if not for the heat scale system nerfing the crap out of it).

Edited by FupDup, 18 July 2013 - 04:12 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Sturmforge, on 18 July 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

That is also if you called the shot which gave a huge penalty to hit.

+4 to hit is not a huge mod if you are a 1 or a 2 gunner, then add in ERPPC Specialist and that +4 is now a + 2 only.

Also 60 damage to one location that only has 1/2 the armor as MMO. An Atlas CT would be stripped and Structure would be damaged.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 18 July 2013 - 04:17 PM.

[Orzorn]

FupDup, on 18 July 2013 - 04:12 PM, said:

Speaking of ERPPCs and heat dissipation in TT, does anybody remember the Hellstar? You know, that Dark Age 95 ton Clan assault mech with quad ERPPCs and 30 DHS to keep it heat neutral, with the speed of a heavy and a hair less armor than an Atlas? Now that thing would be scary to face (if not for the heat scale system nerfing the crap out of it).

Well, like I said above, luckily this game is real time, so quad ERPPCS would shut the mech down. In fact, it would shut it down for 5 seconds (fire all 4, get 60 heat, wait 5 seconds for your 6 heat dissipation per second to remove 30 heat).

[Unbound Inferno]

Orzorn, on 18 July 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

Well, like I said above, luckily this game is real time, so quad ERPPCS would shut the mech down. In fact, it would shut it down for 5 seconds (fire all 4, get 60 heat, wait 5 seconds for your 6 heat dissipation per second to remove 30 heat).

Actually, that should kill the mech. its 150% overheated at that stage, from standing still. Higher if moving and slightly less in a cold environment.- the internal damage at that point should fry the engine before you cool off.

[Joseph Mallan]

Unbound Inferno, on 18 July 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

Actually, that should kill the mech. its 150% overheated at that stage, from standing still. Higher if moving and slightly less in a cold environment.- the internal damage at that point should fry the engine before you cool off.

Clan Large Pulse lasers for the win...
...
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Are Large Pulse on the list?