56 replies to this topic

[Unbound Inferno]

Catapult A1
6x LRM-5
10 DHS
1,980 ammo is what it totals to with 4 JJ

Catapult K2
2x ERPPC
20 DHS
Has a fast engine, and AMS with TAG, but that's it for extras.

Know which one works better?

The A1, because its able to do what its not supposed to do.

This heat system is so borked and wrong i can hardly believe that a K2 built with such excessive heat sinks overheats when in theory it shouldn't. But I do.

The dissipation rate of the heat system and excessive threshold means my A1 which should overheat on one volley can sustain its fire for a long while as it moves, JJs and does whatever.

While the K2 can't do more than a few shots and overheat. And that's with lowered ERPPC heat.


In Battletech, I'd have 5 tons to fiddle with still. Add two MG, extra AMS ammo... but in MW:O the build is junk. its intended sustained ranged damage isn't an option at all.

In Battletech I'd have 20 heat cap on the A1 generating 24 heat per shot standing still. The K2 has a whopping 40 heat cap and generates only 30 heat per shot that dissipates before the next shot. The A1 should overheat and be a bad idea whil the K2 is considered efficient.

But it doesn't play that way. I can't keep the K2 at range and snipe to my heart's content as the shots eventually shuts me down.


The entire reason is that the current heat system has a priority over the threshold of the heat than the functionality of its dissipation. Its backwards, and I'm getting fed up with it.

[DaZur]

First mistake you made was trying to draw correlations between MW:O & BT/TT...

Edited by DaZur, 18 July 2013 - 08:25 AM.

[Unbound Inferno]

Hardly. If this was based of Battletech - its rules should be similar.

However it isn't. Why?

[hammerreborn]

Because TT sucks in a real time game?

[Middcore]

I'm not quite sure what the substance of your issue is. Is this in regards to additional heat sinks raising the overheat threshold as well as dissipating heat faster? I have heard some people complain about that. But that is is absolutely true to the BattleTech tabletop rules. In BT tabletop, if I had ten double heat sinks, my overheat threshold was 20. If I had 15 double heat sinks, the threshold went up to 30.

[3rdworld]

Unbound Inferno, on 18 July 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

Hardly. If this was based of Battletech - its rules should be similar.

However it isn't. Why?

Heat is generated in real time, not in turns.

[Unbound Inferno]

3rdworld, on 18 July 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

Heat is generated in real time, not in turns.

Lets see this.

Recharge time is time. The time it takes for the thing to recharge should dissipate the heat, right?

How hard is it to get that?

However with the threshold the A1 which shouldn't be able to work loaded like that does - and the K2 loaded like it should work doesn't.

And you don't see the problem?

I have 10 tons of DHS per ERPPC, and that doesn't add up to actually be able to dissipate the heat fast enough to do what it is intended to do.

While the build with minimal DHS can fire with reckless abandon when it shouldn't.

And you all wonder why boating is a problem here...

[IceSerpent]

3rdworld, on 18 July 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

Heat is generated in real time, not in turns.

Given that TT turn equals to 10 seconds, your statement is meaningless - MWO values are also updated in "turns" that happen as often as server updates the clients.

[DeathlyEyes]

Heat is crap. I think it has to deal with newer players not able to use PPCs and rellying on LRMs and lasers complaining too much. PPCs are more difficult to use than LRMs and there usefullness should reflect that. Players with good aim with direct fire weapons should be rewarded. AC20s were nerfed too even though the slug already travels slow as hell. Gauss will be next, though I really don't see how it can be nerfed.

[Vassago Rain]

Unbound Inferno, on 18 July 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

Hardly. If this was based of Battletech - its rules should be similar.

However it isn't. Why?

Because a tabletop game doesn't translate into a good videogame. That's why dawn of war has absolutely no relation to 40,000 4th and 5th edition.

[Unbound Inferno]

Point and click is not hard.

Keeping a lock, aiming at your target for 5+ seconds, moving, keeping mindful of cover and your surroundings at the same time - that is hard.

PPC can ignore the staring at your target part and moving if your humping a hill. Its not hard at all.

Edited by Unbound Inferno, 18 July 2013 - 08:44 AM.

[3rdworld]

IceSerpent, on 18 July 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

Given that TT turn equals to 10 seconds, your statement is meaningless - MWO values are also updated in "turns" that happen as often as server updates the clients.

shooting 2 ERPPCs create 22 heat. That heat is immediately applied to the capacity then dissipated based on heatsinks.

In TT shooting 2 ERPPCs only generates heat = to the excess of dissipation. And with the current ERPPC heat of 11 would only require 11 DHS to remain heat neutral while not moving.

Any time you fire while your are at or above Cap - 22, you overheat, as you dissipate nothing instantly and heat is dissipated over time.

There is a very large difference between real time heat generation and turn based heat generation. A turn representing 10 seconds is completely inconsequential.

Edited by 3rdworld, 18 July 2013 - 08:47 AM.

[Unbound Inferno]

3rdworld, on 18 July 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

shooting 2 ERPPCs create 22 heat. That heat is immediately applied to the capacity then dissipated based on heatsinks.

In TT shooting 2 ERPPCs only generates heat = to the excess of dissipation. And with the current ERPPC heat of 11 would only require 11 DHS to remain heat neutral while not moving.

Any time you fire while your are at or above Cap - 22, you overheat.

There is a very large difference between real time heat generation and turn based heat generation. A turn representing 10 seconds is completely inconsequential.

Did you miss the turn is 10 seconds?

A PPC fires, generates heat and it is dissipated over 10 seconds before the PPC fires again. Thus removing the heat and its cost on the system.

Did you miss that part?

[3rdworld]

Unbound Inferno, on 18 July 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

Lets see this.

Recharge time is time. The time it takes for the thing to recharge should dissipate the heat, right?

How hard is it to get that?

However with the threshold the A1 which shouldn't be able to work loaded like that does - and the K2 loaded like it should work doesn't.

And you don't see the problem?

I have 10 tons of DHS per ERPPC, and that doesn't add up to actually be able to dissipate the heat fast enough to do what it is intended to do.

While the build with minimal DHS can fire with reckless abandon when it shouldn't.

And you all wonder why boating is a problem here...

You are judging should and shouldn't based on TT. The rules are different as are the mechanics of real time vs turns.

How exactly is boating 6 LRM 5s a problem? You just admitted yourself even using 20 DHS you can't use a 2 ERPPC K2.

Unbound Inferno, on 18 July 2013 - 08:48 AM, said:

Did you miss the turn is 10 seconds?

A PPC fires, generates heat and it is dissipated over 10 seconds before the PPC fires again. Thus removing the heat and its cost on the system.

Did you miss that part?

Actually I explained pretty clearly that a turn representing 10 seconds is irrelevant to the factors at hand.


You either ignored it or have poor reading comprehension.

[MaddMaxx]

Unbound Inferno, on 18 July 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

Hardly. If this was based of Battletech - its rules should be similar.

However it isn't. Why?

Because the suits, in their infinite wisdom, took away the Developers Dice Bags. ****** eh! LOL

Edited by MaddMaxx, 18 July 2013 - 08:58 AM.

[Unbound Inferno]

3rdworld, on 18 July 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

You are judging should and shouldn't based on TT. The rules are different as are the mechanics of real time vs turns.

How exactly is boating 6 LRM 5s a problem? You just admitted yourself even using 20 DHS you can't use a 2 ERPPC K2.



Actually I explained pretty clearly that a turn representing 10 seconds is irrelevant to the factors at hand.


You either ignored it or have poor reading comprehension.

IceSerpent, on 18 July 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

Given that TT turn equals to 10 seconds, your statement is meaningless - MWO values are also updated in "turns" that happen as often as server updates the clients.

Great answer for 10 seconds.

That is the measure for damage over time. The duration it should take to do something - the comparable durability of mechs, the... oh I should give up you don't seem to want to get it.

As for the 6x LRM5. I can CT core an Awesome or Atlas in 3, maybe 4 shots (to tell you, that's TWO turns, roughly 20 seconds) if its staring at my direction. I can maitain reasonable fire rate seemingly indefinitely for about 6 minutes straight raining missiles down on whatever I have locked with scary efficiency.

After all the QQ about how pinpoint damage and this crappy PPC twitchfest meta is I would think you could grasp why such a ridiculously efficient build that guarantees CT coring is a bad idea. And i abuse it. Feels good sometimes, but I am sick that I have to do this to be good with missiles on that chassis or swap to a Stalker.

Edited by Unbound Inferno, 18 July 2013 - 09:04 AM.

[3rdworld]

Unbound Inferno, on 18 July 2013 - 09:01 AM, said:

Great answer for 10 seconds.

That is the measure for damage over time. The duration it should take to do something - the comparable durability of mechs, the... oh I should give up you don't seem to want to get it.

As for the 6x LRM5. I can CT core an Awesome or Atlas in 3, maybe 4 shots (to tell you, that's TWO turns, roughly 20 seconds) if its staring at my direction. I can maitain reasonable fire rate seemingly indefinitely for about 6 minutes straight raining missiles down on whatever I have locked with scary efficiency.

After all the QQ about how pinpoint damage and this crappy PPC twitchfest meta is I would think you could grasp why such a ridiculously efficient build that guarantees CT coring is a bad idea. And i abuse it. Feels good sometimes, but I am sick that I have to do this to be good with missiles on that chassis or swap to a Stalker.

You believing LRMs are good is all I needed to know.

Good day.

[IceSerpent]

3rdworld, on 18 July 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

shooting 2 ERPPCs create 22 heat. That heat is immediately applied to the capacity then dissipated based on heatsinks.

In TT shooting 2 ERPPCs only generates heat = to the excess of dissipation. And with the current ERPPC heat of 11 would only require 11 DHS to remain heat neutral while not moving.

Any time you fire while your are at or above Cap - 22, you overheat, as you dissipate nothing instantly and heat is dissipated over time.

There is a very large difference between real time heat generation and turn based heat generation. A turn representing 10 seconds is completely inconsequential.

Not quite - in your example you are using (almost) instant heat generation with non-instant heat dissipation. The fact that PGI designed MWO this way doesn't mean that it should be done this way. There's absolutely nothing that pervents heat from being generated over a predetermined time interval a.k.a. "turn". You can simply scale TT rules from 10s turns to 0.1s turns and end up with real time simulation (100ms "turn" is comparable to average ping, so it would be "real time" from the player's perspective).

[Zyllos]

Vassago Rain, on 18 July 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

Because a tabletop game doesn't translate into a good videogame. That's why dawn of war has absolutely no relation to 40,000 4th and 5th edition.

I think you choose a bad example.

The reason why DoW was not like 40k TT is because GW would never let a company produce an electronic version of the TT, that followed the rules exactly. Why they won't let this happen is because then everyone would just jump into playing it over the actual TT version (not all, but many would) and it would eat into their profits.

[Unbound Inferno]

3rdworld, on 18 July 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

You believing LRMs are good is all I needed to know.

Good day.

Tight LRM5 spacing is borderline overpowered actually, bit different than good - but thanks for confirming which PPC side you'd rather stay on.