53 replies to this topic

[Orzorn]

Unbound Inferno, on 19 July 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

Might have misread a bit.

With this, we'd have the 4x ERPPC (generating 60 heat) with the 4x PPC build of 21 DHS.
That's a 42 capacity with 30 overheat threshold, total of 72.
Firing all 4 PPC (at once) is 60, placing it at 12 on the overheating scale.
Slower movement, slight shaking and just shy of the first shutting down warning.
Dissiapte 42 by the next shot, so the base is at 18 within the capacity.
Second shot is +60 leaving 78, +36 on the overheating scale.
Beyond 100% threshold, overheated and shut down with incurred internal damage. The mech stays shut down until it cools off or the pilot forces it up once its below 22 on the overheat, or starts up at under 14, which could take about 2.6 seconds.
If the pilot is stupid enough o rush the third shot the mech's destruction is guaranteed.

That's with alphastrikes, if we add Paul's heat mechanic and the pilot is staggering shots the heat is lower through dissipation, slightly more manageable, but three salvos is about the best it can do in a hurry and at risk.

I see what you're doing. You use the TT 30 heat cap, but you keep the DHS giving +2, but now make them give +2 to a heat pool that incurs no penalties. You dissipate heat from the heat pool first, and then the heat cap second. That means if you start getting heat in the heat cap, you need to wait for your pool to drain before your cap starts draining.

On the other hand, that system also means that if your system drains fast enough, you'll never incur heat penalties, yet might still be able to alpha strike.

As for your poll, you should change it, if only to help out your idea. Being snarky (even if I'd say its probably right) won't help people stop and read your idea.

Edited by Orzorn, 19 July 2013 - 11:55 AM.

[Unbound Inferno]

Orzorn, on 19 July 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

I see what you're doing. You use the TT 30 heat cap, but you keep the DHS giving +2, but now make them give +2 to a heat pool that incurs no penalties. You dissipate heat from the heat pool first, and then the heat cap second. That means if you start getting heat in the heat cap, you need to wait for your pool to drain before your cap starts draining.

On the other hand, that system also means that if your system drains fast enough, you'll never incur heat penalties, yet might still be able to alpha strike.

As for your poll, you should change it, if only to help out your idea. Being snarky (even if I'd say its probably right) won't help people stop and read your idea.

That is the hope. Its how it works in Battletech, so no reason we really can't do that here.

Then the rest of it is just balancing the damage numbers and armor around what plays well. Wither that means accuracy systems, GCDs or whatnot to mitigate damage - that's another can of worms.

[General Taskeen]

TT doesn't need to be compared for the heat cap.

Look at every Mech Warrior game ever folks. There was a heat cap, with whatever number it was that existed for it with better designed heat sinks that don't raise caps. And it just plain works, especially in the latest iteration MW:LL.

Taking weights and crits is fine, but the heat sinks and the fire rates without accounting for more heat dissiapation, and straight up values for damage/heat per shot is totally whack yo. Hence why practically every build uses DHS and a merry-go around of trying to adjust values or introducing arbitrary things.

There is no need to re-invent the heat wheel, when there has been concepts in place that can be enhanced already. And The heat wheel, right now, in conjunction with many core mechanics is running on a flat tire with a wobbly axel.

Edited by General Taskeen, 19 July 2013 - 12:01 PM.

[hammerreborn]

Orzorn, on 19 July 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

I see what you're doing. You use the TT 30 heat cap, but you keep the DHS giving +2, but now make them give +2 to a heat pool that incurs no penalties. You dissipate heat from the heat pool first, and then the heat cap second. That means if you start getting heat in the heat cap, you need to wait for your pool to drain before your cap starts draining.

On the other hand, that system also means that if your system drains fast enough, you'll never incur heat penalties, yet might still be able to alpha strike.

I prefer this

Sturmforge, on 19 July 2013 - 11:22 AM, said:

Well if you increase heat dissapation with the number of heat sinks I see being able to fire those 3 ERPPC pretty close together if you go with 10 heat dissapated per 10 single heat sinks every 4 seconds. An idea.

hammerreborn, on 19 July 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

Math:

Lets say heat stays the same for the ERPPC (11). With the heat cap dropped back to 30 but bring the current dissipation to a 4 second timer rather than 10s you would increase dissipation by 10/4 = 2.5

Take the 4 PPC stalker with 16 DHS (IIRC but whatever). With cool run 10 in engine (2.2 = 22 heat dissipated in 10s), 6 outside (8.4 heat dissipated in 10s). Total dissipation becomes 30.4 heat every 10s. To convert to every 4s, you get 76 heat dissipated in 4s, or 19 heat a second.

Fire 2 ER PPCS, go to 22, 29-22 = 7, can fire the other two in 7/19 or in ~.4s

If heat goes to 15 (as people seem to want), you essentially chain fire and remain relatively neutral. Hell, you could chain fire 6 probably and have the first come online slightly after the last fired (not doing math now, at work and should actually try doing that), although at 15 heat I'm sure you'll have to stop at some point.

Forces stagger fire on big heat weapons while allowing higher alphas on the smaller, shorter ranged, and duration weapons (can fire 3 medium lasers a second with 10 DHS) which would allow a 9 medium laser hunchback to fire 3 at a time each second indefinitely with no greater heatsink investment.

Edited by hammerreborn, 19 July 2013 - 11:59 AM.

[Voivode]

I voted for the third one because (despite your ham fisted wording) I don't have a problem with the heat in the game. Is it different than TT. Yes. Do I hate that? No. It places reasonable limitations on what mechs are able to do and how people are able to fight. It adds complexity to the game and requires people to think about what they're doing more. Seems fine to me.

[Unbound Inferno]

General Taskeen, on 19 July 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

TT doesn't need to be compared for the heat cap.

Look at every Mech Warrior game ever folks. There was a heat cap, with whatever number it was that existed for it with better designed heat sinks that don't raise caps. And it just plain works, especially in the latest iteration MW:LL.

Taking weights and crits is fine, but the heat sinks and the fire rates without accounting for more heat dissiapation, and straight up values for damage/heat per shot is totally whack yo. Hence why practically every build uses DHS and a merry-go around of trying to adjust values or introducing arbitrary things.

Very true. It doesn't matter how they do it, but its a system that ought to be balanced into how it should work without causing such issues that require those arbitrary things.

[Unbound Inferno]

Voivode, on 19 July 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

I voted for the third one because (despite your ham fisted wording) I don't have a problem with the heat in the game. Is it different than TT. Yes. Do I hate that? No. It places reasonable limitations on what mechs are able to do and how people are able to fight. It adds complexity to the game and requires people to think about what they're doing more. Seems fine to me.

Eh, I'll fix that, hot and rough day's getting to me - but it does matter. Even though it makes it interesting,t he system as it is prefers alphastrikes over DPS, and as such is instigating the problem with the PPC/Gauss meta specifically because that's the better build to use in this system.

It needs balancing, otherwise this twitchfest is all it will ever be.

[Joseph Mallan]

hammerreborn, on 19 July 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

I rather not have 4 PPC stalkers be heat neutral and have it only be neutral if they fire every 10 seconds. Heat management is supposed to be a thing, not something you can completely ignore.

An increased heat dissipation would have to be met with the most massive of heat cap nerfs or this game is going to go off rails incredibly fast.

Heat management was suppose to be a thing, However a smart weapon builder would be making their product as deadly and viable as possible. For 25 years I rebuilt Mechs from TROs into scary death dealing monsters of combat. That included in the video games so you can stop before you even try to go , "this isn't TT."

[hammerreborn]

Joseph Mallan, on 19 July 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

Heat management was suppose to be a thing, However a smart weapon builder would be making their product as deadly and viable as possible. For 25 years I rebuilt Mechs from TROs into scary death dealing monsters of combat. That included in the video games so you can stop before you even try to go , "this isn't TT."

My point was that you couldn't have large dissipation without a large heat cap nerf. If you doubled heat dissipation (to be closer to TT) doing nothing to the heat cap (which is as far from TT as anything in the game really) then stalkers with their current heat sink loadouts and heat caps (70) would never need to worry about heat again, which pretty much defeats the point entirely and does nothing but make the current problem worse.

Stalker presently creates 44 heat (assuming 4 ERPPCs and ignoring scale) every 4 seconds.

Double dissipation would lead to 6 every second of heat reduction * 4 = 24 of the 44 heat bled off, leading 20 remaining. So you get 4 shots before overheating firing everytime on cooldown.

Or you could slash the heat cap to 30, and make them chain fire.

Edited by hammerreborn, 19 July 2013 - 12:17 PM.

[MoonfireSpam]

Will this make gameplay better? A bit of this is probably just having finished a 14 hour shift, but honestly, I can't see why this would improve the game.

[Unbound Inferno]

hammerreborn, on 19 July 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

My point was that you couldn't have large dissipation without a large heat cap nerf. If you doubled heat dissipation (to be closer to TT) doing nothing to the heat cap (which is as far from TT as anything in the game really) then stalkers with their current heat sink loadouts and heat caps (70) would never need to worry about heat again, which pretty much defeats the point entirely and does nothing but make the current problem worse.

Unbound Inferno, on 19 July 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

Might have misread a bit.

With this, we'd have the 4x ERPPC (generating 60 heat) with the 4x PPC build of 21 DHS.
That's a 42 capacity with 30 overheat threshold, total of 72.
Firing all 4 PPC (at once) is 60, placing it at 12 on the overheating scale.
Slower movement, slight shaking and just shy of the first shutting down warning.
Dissiapte 42 by the next shot, so the base is at 18 within the capacity.
Second shot is +60 leaving 78, +36 on the overheating scale.
Beyond 100% threshold, overheated and shut down with incurred internal damage. The mech stays shut down until it cools off or the pilot forces it up once its below 22 on the overheat, or starts up at under 14, which could take about 2.6 seconds.
If the pilot is stupid enough o rush the third shot the mech's destruction is guaranteed.

That's with alphastrikes, if we add Paul's heat mechanic and the pilot is staggering shots the heat is lower through dissipation, slightly more manageable, but three salvos is about the best it can do in a hurry and at risk.

That's a 4 ERPPC in action. The only alternative is to wait (recharge of about 6 seconds between alphastrikes) to cool off enough to use it well.

The heat dissipation is only 42 with 21 DHS, while the cap is 72.
Only the 4x PPC build is the really dangerous one remaining - and that has its own drawbacks.

[hammerreborn]

Unbound Inferno, on 19 July 2013 - 12:18 PM, said:

That's a 4 ERPPC in action. The only alternative is to wait (recharge of about 6 seconds between alphastrikes) to cool off enough to use it well.

The heat dissipation is only 42 with 21 DHS, while the cap is 72.
Only the 4x PPC build is the really dangerous one remaining - and that has its own drawbacks.

You're still getting 80 damage before shutdown with that. I'm still completely in the realm of bring that cap back down to thirty and force chain fires or small groups rather than how many large alphas can I fit before I hit this cap.

Lower cap higher dissipation also has 0 "wtf is going on" effect on new players as opposed to the convergence/heat scale/various other suggestions create. You keep exactly the same HUD as current.

Edited by hammerreborn, 19 July 2013 - 12:23 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

hammerreborn, on 19 July 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

My point was that you couldn't have large dissipation without a large heat cap nerf. If you doubled heat dissipation (to be closer to TT) doing nothing to the heat cap (which is as far from TT as anything in the game really) then stalkers with their current heat sink loadouts and heat caps (70) would never need to worry about heat again, which pretty much defeats the point entirely and does nothing but make the current problem worse.

Stalker presently creates 44 heat (assuming 4 ERPPCs and ignoring scale) every 4 seconds.

Double dissipation would lead to 6 every second of heat reduction * 4 = 24 of the 44 heat bled off, leading 20 remaining. So you get 4 shots before overheating firing everytime on cooldown.

Or you could slash the heat cap to 30, and make them chain fire.

As was said by Unbound, The heat for 4 ERPPCs needs to go back to 60. Now 60 heat every 4 seconds would still over tax sinks that are venting every 4-5 seconds(which is he second half of a turn not the failed 10 seconds to vent we have now).

The heat cap should be 30. not this 30 PLUS sinks. PGI really screwed the Pooch when it came to handling heat.

[Unbound Inferno]

hammerreborn, on 19 July 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

You're still getting 80 damage before shutdown with that. I'm still completely in the realm of bring that cap back down to thirty and force chain fires or small groups rather than how many large alphas can I fit before I hit this cap.

Lower cap higher dissipation also has 0 "wtf is going on" effect on new players as opposed to the convergence/heat scale/various other suggestions create. You keep exactly the same HUD as current.

I'd be for that too, but that modification was to follow what PGI started already with their line of thinking of dissipation needng a threshold.

MoonfireSpam, on 19 July 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

Will this make gameplay better? A bit of this is probably just having finished a 14 hour shift, but honestly, I can't see why this would improve the game.

Honestly? marginally. It'll allow mechs to fire more frequently - that means everybody, including boaters.

Joseph Mallan, on 19 July 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

As was said by Unbound, The heat for 4 ERPPCs needs to go back to 60. Now 60 heat every 4 seconds would still over tax sinks that are venting every 4-5 seconds(which is he second half of a turn not the failed 10 seconds to vent we have now).

The heat cap should be 30. not this 30 PLUS sinks. PGI really screwed the Pooch when it came to handling heat.

The only catch is if we do that we ought to be dealing with heat penalties far sooner and over mech performance hindrances almost all the time.

Edited by Unbound Inferno, 19 July 2013 - 12:29 PM.

[Perigrinial]

Mech Poll Online...

[Joseph Mallan]

hammerreborn, on 19 July 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

You're still getting 80 damage before shutdown with that. I'm still completely in the realm of bring that cap back down to thirty and force chain fires or small groups rather than how many large alphas can I fit before I hit this cap.

Lower cap higher dissipation also has 0 "wtf is going on" effect on new players as opposed to the convergence/heat scale/various other suggestions create. You keep exactly the same HUD as current.

I don't care about 80 damage before shut down... I was throwing 75 damage at +3 heat per turn on TT and in MW2-4 with my Stone Rhino build If I ran. I faced Warhawks that could call 50 point shots into one location every turn without shut down. I am not scared of strong builds. Nor am I mad because someone built a better Mech than mine. I drive what I like, and I will win or loose in it, in spite of whiners wanting to nerf everything that kicks their ash.

[hammerreborn]

Joseph Mallan, on 19 July 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

I don't care about 80 damage before shut down... I was throwing 75 damage at +3 heat per turn on TT and in MW2-4 with my Stone Rhino build If I ran. I faced Warhawks that could call 50 point shots into one location every turn without shut down. I am not scared of strong builds. Nor am I mad because someone built a better Mech than mine. I drive what I like, and I will win or loose in it, in spite of whiners wanting to nerf everything that kicks their ash.

.......


.......cool story bro?

I mean, I'm not sure how this contributes to the thread at all.

I also don't know how this conflicts with my idea AT ALL.

Edited by hammerreborn, 19 July 2013 - 12:40 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Unbound Inferno, on 19 July 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

The only catch is if we do that we ought to be dealing with heat penalties far sooner and over mech performance hindrances almost all the time.

Yes, we should. Unless we learn to build better (imaginary) war machines and not something that only "games" the system to win a game.

[Unbound Inferno]

Joseph Mallan, on 19 July 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

Yes, we should. Unless we learn to build better (imaginary) war machines and not something that only "games" the system to win a game.

I wouldn't mind. I imagine most everyone else would.

At most you can fire 3 PPC and shut down. Or 2 ERPPC and shut down.

Only Dual AC-20 or Dual Gauss could fire frequently and the game shifts to favor those.

[Joseph Mallan]

hammerreborn, on 19 July 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

.......


.......cool story bro?

I mean, I'm not sure how this contributes to the thread at all

Probably doesn't, but I am getting tired of hearing how 60 point Alphas are ruining the game, when I have been seeing 50+ Alphas for 20+ years. Convergence is the real Boogieman, As proven in MWO back when I had a 90+ Alphas using LRMs and Medium lasers! The complain was that to many missiles were raining not '2x LRM20 and 4x Mediums' were OP.