419 replies to this topic

[mike29tw]

The idea that some dudes are raging behind their screens when I cap-win their tonnage-heavy team itself is rewarding alone.

[Shadey99]

The Strange, on 20 July 2013 - 04:50 PM, said:

How are light and medium mechs supposed to win against a "tonnage heavy team" except by capping?

If they are not careful my 5V Spider will eat their face off... xD

Earlier on Alpine, I spotted the enemy team heading south to hit our base. So my team moves from 'usual' to take up defense along the southern approach. Well their teams 5D Spider spotted me watching them approach and came up to play. We had at it for a bit when one of his teams Victors came up to play as well, followed soon after by my teams Cicada. Their spider ran off about then. With some help from the Cicada I took out the Victor. Then I dropped down on their forces in the gap and rear torso cored an Atlas... By then the enemy team was in sad shape with only 2 relatively intact mechs: the Spider and another Atlas. That Atlas had broken through while the others were busy and was nearly at our cap. So I run him down, played leap frog with him, and finish him off. The Spider retreats and I chase him all over the hills, the rest of the team asks me and the Cicada pilot to hit their cap instead of chasing him down. So we hit the cap with just the Spider left alive. The Spider comes in using his ECM to hide and takes down the Cicada. Then we have a Spider showdown between the 5V & 5D. I eventually take his leg, then his weapon arm, then finally finish him off. One more win by utter annihilation of the enemy. 4 kills 2 assists and around 600 damage for me...

However... I don't expect your average pilot to do that. Heck I will admit I was in the zone, though my 5V does tend to get 1-2 kills and usually a half dozen assists unless I'm swarmed... I'd also spent half the day playing with XL 280 builds in my spiders and I'm at least Elite if not mastered in all 3 types.

Edited by Shadey99, 20 July 2013 - 08:34 PM.

[Mycrus]

Grinding spiders so yeah cap...

[Voyager I]

The real reason maps have caps is so that the winning team can claim victory instead of spending 10 minutes looking for the last Spider powered down on a rooftop. That said, on Assault games they're literally just placeholder objectives and are terrible from a game-design standpoint since their natural result in competitive play is 800 ton basecamp picnics. The only reason they've lasted so long is because PGI doesn't work quickly and is prone to bad decisions.

Conquest is at least an actual gametype.

Edited by Voyager I, 20 July 2013 - 09:01 PM.

[Thundercles]

As people are generally so quick to point out in the "capwarrior" threads... base capping is a victory condition. Your reward is the "win" cbills/xp. You even get a decent bonus for participating in the cap. Fighting nets you additional bonuses for going above and beyond the basic parameters for the mission. (Story-wise, a simple cap leaves enemy combatants in the area to trot in and retake the base as soon as you leave. Impeding the enemy's ability to do this gets you bonus spacebucks.)

As far as light/medium mechs not having much else to do... blame the misguided attempt to make every mech class stand alone in combat. This strays into the territory of my opinion, however. Mediums should be ripping the faces off of assault mechs, and to a lesser extent heavies. Mediums put the Battle in Battlemech... heavies are meant to serve as rally points on the battlefield... bringing in superior firepower, but requiring someone to watch their six lest they get outmaneuvered. Assaults are practically artillery, and ought to be in serious trouble when separated from the herd. Lights should be serving scouting/harasser roles, and if opportunity presents itself, closing in for the kill on something caught out of position.

Unfortunately, 'early release' for MC, and Hero versions of assaults are quite a lucrative business. Soooo... from a business perspective, putting the fat boys in their actual place is a bad move.

[Corvus Antaka]

yeah but it counts as a win.

in any war, winning is what matters. capturing strategic points wins wars.

pay could be better though

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 20 July 2013 - 10:11 PM.

[Khobai]

The point of capping is so you dont have to chase light mechs around at the end of every match.

But FFS you should not be able to win by cap within the first 5 minutes of a match. PGI needs to add a cap timer so a base cannot start to be capped until 5 minutes have passed.

Edited by Khobai, 20 July 2013 - 10:18 PM.

[Thundercles]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 20 July 2013 - 10:11 PM, said:

in any war, winning is what matters. capturing strategic points wins wars.

HOLDING strategic points wins wars. Taking the enemy base today doesn't mean anything if you have to go back and re-take it tomorrow. Though, capturing a point is a necessary requirement for holding it, I suppose.

[JimboFBX]

if some *** light starts capping before anyone dies then your better off just trying to get whatever kills you can instead of retreating back to your base. you get more money that way.

[Khobai]

Quote

HOLDING strategic points wins wars.

No it doesnt. Destroying the enemys capacity to fight back wins you wars. Holding a strategic point has rarely won anyone a war except for Russia because *Russian Winter*.

From an actual military standpoint, the primary objective of Assault should be to neutralize all enemy mechs in the area. Capturing the base should be a secondary objective, and it should only exist as a means to prevent having to chase light mechs around at the end of a match.

It is currently WAY too easy to cap in Assault and there needs to be a 5 minute timer before you can start capping.

Edited by Khobai, 20 July 2013 - 10:37 PM.

[Taemien]

Vince Lombardi said:

Winning is not a sometime thing. You don't win once in a while. You don't do things right once in a while. You do them right all the time.

In other words, be prepared to always defend your base. Don't run up to the middle of the map to trade blows with your boated assaults all the time. Organize a defense. If no one stays back and you have the firepower to handle it, stay back and pop those little mechs that come in.

Best get in the practice now. When CW hits, capping will increase probably exponentially as winning becomes more important than grinding cbills.

Also never rely on the PUG to perform an action or objective that is imperative to your teams victory. Make sure you can accomplish it yourself. A PUG will let you down 9 times out of 10. But that's not their fault. They are ignorant. They are learning. They are ill equipped. They are focusing on having just fun. They are the PUG.

[GODzillaGSPB]

Capping the enemy team full of players who decided to join the current "all assault" meta feels soooooooooooooooooo good.

[One Medic Army]

Play conquest.
Assault you need someone on the team willing and able to go back to base and delay long enough for others to get back, or your team to cap the enemy.
Of course, mechs that can do this on alpine are few and far between, since no help will ever get there in time, and a light staying in the square is a dead light when faced with anything other than a single enemy.

Edited by One Medic Army, 21 July 2013 - 01:58 AM.

[Shadey99]

One Medic Army, on 21 July 2013 - 01:58 AM, said:

Play conquest.
Assault you need someone on the team willing and able to go back to base and delay long enough for others to get back, or your team to cap the enemy.
Of course, mechs that can do this on alpine are few and far between, since no help will ever get there in time, and a light staying in the square is a dead light when faced with anything other than a single enemy.

This is why a good scout is so important. Last night I had a streak of games where the other force when the southern route to base, rather then engage up top. Since I was playing with my spiders I had climbed the big central mountain and could see which way they were going.

1st team were idiots and ignored my warning, leaving me to harass 6 enemy mechs going for our Cap. Since a Spider by itself is not taking on 2 Heavies & 4 Assaults... We lost.

The 2nd team returned to base, defended, and crushed the team that thought they would get the drop on us.

As for the other comments... No, capping is not just there to 'finish' a game with a hiding light. If the models and such were in place for it you'd return from your 'curb stomp' to see your rations destroyed, your repair bays totaled, your ammo ruined, and your comfy bed in little pieces. That is what it means to lose your base in assault. I'd prefer if it was not a 'mining extractor' from conquest and instead were real buildings to shoot up, but we don't have that at the moment.

[soarra]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 20 July 2013 - 10:11 PM, said:

yeah but it counts as a win.

in any war, winning is what matters. capturing strategic points wins wars.

pay could be better though

because during war standing in a magical square should win it for you, they need to give the base defenses or something. If they do that then i'm fine with better rewards.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

soarra, on 21 July 2013 - 06:50 AM, said:

because during war standing in a magical square should win it for you, they need to give the base defenses or something. If they do that then i'm fine with better rewards.

I mean seriously read some of these posts... "Training for CW"; "Winning is all that matters"...lets stop and think about that.

First off, if winning is all that matters and the way to win is really not fun and counter to the point of the game, is that a good thing? We all spend our time and money buying and equipping our mechs to do battle after all.

Training for CW...hmm lets see...so if winning becomes the utmost important thing...and capping is the fastest way to win...and you now basically have to worry about getting capped every time you dropped (which isn't as big of a deal currently)...literally every match will be both teams standing on or near their base waiting for the other team.

That sounds amazing.

Now of course the caveat to this is that PGI is supposedly releasing an asymmetrical game type, and I have an odd feeling it will be the only mode that works for earning CW wins. But I guess we'll see.

[soarra]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 21 July 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

I mean seriously read some of these posts... "Training for CW"; "Winning is all that matters"...lets stop and think about that.

First off, if winning is all that matters and the way to win is really not fun and counter to the point of the game, is that a good thing? We all spend our time and money buying and equipping our mechs to do battle after all.

Training for CW...hmm lets see...so if winning becomes the utmost important thing...and capping is the fastest way to win...and you now basically have to worry about getting capped every time you dropped (which isn't as big of a deal currently)...literally every match will be both teams standing on or near their base waiting for the other team.

That sounds amazing.

Now of course the caveat to this is that PGI is supposedly releasing an asymmetrical game type, and I have an odd feeling it will be the only mode that works for earning CW wins. But I guess we'll see.

yeah this will be fun, base camping and base rushing.

[dalee2]

The only point is to troll assaults. From a gameplay perspective, it's not fun for anyone. But imagining some neckbeard in a stalker banging his keyboard after walking around on a big map for 5 minutes only to end in a cap can be worth it.

Edited by dalee2, 21 July 2013 - 07:39 AM.

[Zerberus]

Yay, it`s this 15 year old fresh and exciting discussion.. again.

Do you complain in CS because the terrorists setr the bomb and it went off? Or because you were runing around the marketplace and teh CTs rescued the hostaged from under your nose?

Or do you actively try to stop them from doing so?

Learn what your objectives are, and think about how to accomplish them. Always assume that the enemy team is trying to WIN, not play hulk smash robots /quake with mechs, and act accordingly.

Until the that starts happening on a widespread scale, EVERY cap loss is well deserved and entirely the losing team`s own fault regardless of how much they whine about it and flame light pilots, and the resulting qq tears of lumbering "battleships on legs" will continue to be delicious to every troll or light pilot in the Inner Sphere.


"The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting" - Sun Tzu

Edited by Zerberus, 21 July 2013 - 07:54 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Zerberus, on 21 July 2013 - 07:53 AM, said:

"The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting" - Sun Tzu

The supreme art of video games is to create fun and engaging mechanics - Me

Quoting Sun Tzu and applying it to MW:O is stupid. The devs are OBVIOUSLY not nearly as smart as Sun Tzu was.

Going with what we have now...and not what may or may not be planned for the future...

CW has two options; Assault and Conquest.

I'm going to limit this to Assault since that is what this thread is discussing.

The goal of CW is to win. Winning will earn your house whatever it is that you get from winning, it sounds like it will be in the form of discounts and buffs to the members of the house.

Individual stats, while important to whatever achievement meta they may have, will be less important than the win.

With the way assault plays, CW is going to end up being both teams standing within a stones throw of their base.

Does anyone actually think that is fun when it happens in 8-mans?

The whole game will become who can be more patient for 15 minutes.