419 replies to this topic

[Jaguar Prime]

Im sorry but if your team sets up somewhere and I have a clear line to the cap? I'm gonna cap. If your team takes some crazy route trying to get the jump on my team. I'm gonna cap. Capping is a legitimate win condition. Imo its there to keep one pilot from hiding at the end of a match and causing a draw. (had that happen a lot when we had R&R) They removed the rewards from capping because people refused to fight and engaged in cap races. I will say it like it was said to me when I complained about it on the closed beta forums. "learn to defend your base"

[Mystere]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 21 July 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

The supreme art of video games is to create fun and engaging mechanics - Me

It is very fun to see the vast flowing rivers of male nerd rage tears that capping generates. - Mystere

Nicholas Carlyle, on 21 July 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

The whole game will become who can be more patient for 15 minutes.

A large chunk of the player base seems to lack in patience. If that is indeed correct, they will be easy to manipulate during matches for the win. - Mystere

Edited by Mystere, 21 July 2013 - 08:46 AM.

[soarra]

Jaguar Prime, on 21 July 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

Im sorry but if your team sets up somewhere and I have a clear line to the cap? I'm gonna cap. If your team takes some crazy route trying to get the jump on my team. I'm gonna cap. Capping is a legitimate win condition. Imo its there to keep one pilot from hiding at the end of a match and causing a draw. (had that happen a lot when we had R&R) They removed the rewards from capping because people refused to fight and engaged in cap races. I will say it like it was said to me when I complained about it on the closed beta forums. "learn to defend your base"

the way capping is now is just bad, sitting in a square 2 lights with cap module can take all fun away from this game.
i understand defending base but with MM being all screwy, i have seen teams with 3-4 lights and none of other team

[East Indy]

How a team responds to a cap warning is critical. When I run my lights I'm not interested in a cap victory anyway — I just want to see if I can draw enough opponents away from the middle to give my team the upper hand.

[CravenMadness]

Don't have to be in light mechs to win by cap. Hell, just last night running in eights, our team composition was fast mediums/heavies ... We landed in river city vs the Enemy. Enemy went all one way, but were obviously fat on the assault side, so we decided to teach a lesson and all eight of us landed on their point at once. Sure, there were zeroes across the board, but it was worth a chuckle on our end and I'm sure the Enemy learned a little about being too heavy/not watching multiple directions.

As far as capping in lights... Yea.. When you get hit by anything over ten points of damage and you're suddenly missing armor on two quarters of your chassis, you're going to look for a safer way to be benefit to your team, and are going to cap. If you're a light, you literally have to force yourself to wait about five minutes every map for brawling or whatever to begin and folks to have picked targets, otherwise you get out on the front lines and just put down by whatever happens to catch sight of you first. Unless you're lucky enough to run into the opposition's light mechs somewhere in the out-field and can have yourself a little brawl.

[Zerberus]

^^ very good point. If I can get a cap win in a freaking Atlas, much less my D which barely runs 53 downhill witth a tailwind, then the problem is obviously not the mechanic or "my" winning > everything else mindset, it`s the enemy team being completely out of position and not caring when Bitchin` Betty screams at them repeatedly that they`re about to lose.

[Coralld]

Why do people cap FTW? Simple... At least for me.

1: First and for most, W/L is more important then KDR.
2: If you are on a lighter team going against a big fat one, your response is probably along the lines of "Screw that!!"
3: Has the potential to draw enemies away from the front lines and thus makes it a bit easier for them to deal with the enemy.
4: The rage and tears from faty teams are delicious and make great mech fuel, on top of that, bathing in tears of Heavy and Assault rage is near orgasmic.

Edited by Coralld, 21 July 2013 - 09:51 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

IceSerpent, on 20 July 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

Aeten, your main mistake is that you apprently think that people care about c-bill/xp rewards. Only new players do and only for a few weeks. Everybody who has been playing longer than that is practically swimming in those "rewards", so the only thing that matters is win/loss.

So what....everyone just cares about win rate? How about damage per match? How about K/D? How about the satisfaction of having a good fun match?

What the Frak does Win rate mean....ZERO. Oh yeah wait, it means you can pilot your mech very fast across the map....hurrah for you!!!

This is especially so since ELO is designed to keep you at a 50/50 win ratio so Winning means NOTHING!!!

[Taemien]

Viktor Drake, on 21 July 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

So what....everyone just cares about win rate? How about damage per match? How about K/D? How about the satisfaction of having a good fun match?

What the Frak does Win rate mean....ZERO. Oh yeah wait, it means you can pilot your mech very fast across the map....hurrah for you!!!

This is especially so since ELO is designed to keep you at a 50/50 win ratio so Winning means NOTHING!!!

You don't understand the intricacies to actually winning by cap. Yeah there are a select few that go for the quick win. But others' like myself have a mindset of the bigger picture. The assault game mode has two win conditions. Going into every match I already know I have two routes to victory. Which one will be the better route? It might be a cap, it might be a slugfest. I won't know until a later part of the match.

HOWEVER. The enemy team has the same conundrum, and I am taking this into account as well. Not only do they have two ways to win, but two ways to lose as well. I'm watching what they do to see which is exposed. If they expose their base, I exploit that weakness. In addition I am being mindful to which route they are trying to take as well.

To people like you, K/D ratio, kills, damage, ect are all important, as well as cbill/xp gain. To others a good fight is preferable to all else. For me, I could care less about stats or grinding cbills. To me what is important is outfighting and outsmarting my opponent. So having multiple win conditions for me is a great thing.

Now lets look at the flipside. Alot of people are saying that cappers don't want to fight. This is very very false. Most cappers are looking for a fight, and a base is a good way to force the initiative against the other team. Many people have a spot on the map that they know they can dominate from and they move to it. A base being capped forces them from such a dugin position. They don't like losing this advantage which is one of the reasons they don't like people capping them.

Its always amusing to hear someone in a death config'd stalker sitting behind a hill in a dip in the perfect sniping position, that has only one real way to get to, trying to tell me, in a Raven or Jenner to come fight him head. F- You buddy, I'm taking your base. Now give me stronger Arty strikes that are placeable on the map screen and I'll consider it.

And now I'll leave you all with this. I go for a cap, or for a fight, depending on what I'm running or what is going on. I don't tell you all to stop sniping each other with your boats. So why tell me to stop capping? Play how you want, don't worry about how other's play.

Stay in your lane.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Taemien, on 21 July 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

You don't understand the intricacies to actually winning by cap. Yeah there are a select few that go for the quick win. But others' like myself have a mindset of the bigger picture. The assault game mode has two win conditions. Going into every match I already know I have two routes to victory. Which one will be the better route? It might be a cap, it might be a slugfest. I won't know until a later part of the match.

HOWEVER. The enemy team has the same conundrum, and I am taking this into account as well. Not only do they have two ways to win, but two ways to lose as well. I'm watching what they do to see which is exposed. If they expose their base, I exploit that weakness. In addition I am being mindful to which route they are trying to take as well.

To people like you, K/D ratio, kills, damage, ect are all important, as well as cbill/xp gain. To others a good fight is preferable to all else. For me, I could care less about stats or grinding cbills. To me what is important is outfighting and outsmarting my opponent. So having multiple win conditions for me is a great thing.

Now lets look at the flipside. Alot of people are saying that cappers don't want to fight. This is very very false. Most cappers are looking for a fight, and a base is a good way to force the initiative against the other team. Many people have a spot on the map that they know they can dominate from and they move to it. A base being capped forces them from such a dugin position. They don't like losing this advantage which is one of the reasons they don't like people capping them.

Its always amusing to hear someone in a death config'd stalker sitting behind a hill in a dip in the perfect sniping position, that has only one real way to get to, trying to tell me, in a Raven or Jenner to come fight him head. F- You buddy, I'm taking your base. Now give me stronger Arty strikes that are placeable on the map screen and I'll consider it.

And now I'll leave you all with this. I go for a cap, or for a fight, depending on what I'm running or what is going on. I don't tell you all to stop sniping each other with your boats. So why tell me to stop capping? Play how you want, don't worry about how other's play.

Stay in your lane.

Here is the thing. A base rush is not outsmarting your enemy. It is about who gets to the base fastest, no more, no less. Additionally a base cap happens so fast, especially if there are more than one mech sitting on the base that even if a team wants to, it can't make it back to the base to defend it. Additionally, leaving people to defend the base is not an option because if you happen to run into the entire enemy team, your toast in a 4 vs 8 or 6 vs 8 situaton.

So what are you suppose to do. You manuver and hope that the enemy OR EVEN YOUR OWN DAMN TEAM doesn't rush to base to cap.

Also I am not saying that base capping is a bad thing or needs to be removed but by god it needs to be a hell of alot more difficult to do than it is now. It should be hard to capture a base and take a team, not just one or two light mechs base rushing early in the match. There needs to be time for a team to send people back to base to defend.

In the end every match should be a slugfest even if one team wins by capping, I mean that is what we are all here for, to engage in a game centered on mech COMBAT right?

[Archon Adam Steiner]

Capping is a viable strategy, particularly in pick-up groups, but also in competitive matches (when neccessary).

Hitting an enemy's cap forces them to defend it (if they are not doing so already). This is an excellent tactical weapon, as it will force a commander to split his forces (even if just one 'mech) in order to prevent a via cap. Funny enough (particularly for those who prize victory for the team over personal kill-stat padding), winning the game is seen as a priority by many, and it doesn't matter how that win occurs. The goal is not just (or even at all) about C-Bills or how many of the other team gets wiped out.

I would suggest that those games that end in caps within one minute with no attempt at all at engagement are a bit disappointing, yes, but when applied as a tactical tool (i.e. the enemy is camping somewhere and you aren't in a position to dig them out), then capping is a viable tactic. Think of PuG matches, too; your team has been decimated, and let us say that your team has three guys left, and the other team still has eight... do you want to march out there and die, or do you want to at least get a win?

It's not like it's hard to re-drop thirty seconds later; capping is something that adds tactical complexity and helps to separate this game from the yawn-fest 'death match' that most other FPS games are.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Arrachtas, on 21 July 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

Capping is a viable strategy, particularly in pick-up groups, but also in competitive matches (when neccessary).

Hitting an enemy's cap forces them to defend it (if they are not doing so already). This is an excellent tactical weapon, as it will force a commander to split his forces (even if just one 'mech) in order to prevent a via cap. Funny enough (particularly for those who prize victory for the team over personal kill-stat padding), winning the game is seen as a priority by many, and it doesn't matter how that win occurs. The goal is not just (or even at all) about C-Bills or how many of the other team gets wiped out.

I would suggest that those games that end in caps within one minute with no attempt at all at engagement are a bit disappointing, yes, but when applied as a tactical tool (i.e. the enemy is camping somewhere and you aren't in a position to dig them out), then capping is a viable tactic. Think of PuG matches, too; your team has been decimated, and let us say that your team has three guys left, and the other team still has eight... do you want to march out there and die, or do you want to at least get a win?

It's not like it's hard to re-drop thirty seconds later; capping is something that adds tactical complexity and helps to separate this game from the yawn-fest 'death match' that most other FPS games are.

Again I wil add that capping is too easy and that is the issue, not the concept behind capping.

Also to address your last paragraph.

First, you have the time it takes to que into a match. This can be a couple minutes. The you have the wait time for the match to begin. This can take another minute. Then you move around the map for 2-3 minutes before the cap. Then you have the delay to display stats and then the time for your mech to return to the mech bay. In total you have wasted probabaly 5-7 mins for a reward of 40k if you win and 25k if you lose so it is not 30 seconds you wasted.

Second, I like stats. I like tracking my K/D, W/L and almost more importantly to me, my average damage per match. This helps me see how good one build is verses another or which variants I want to keep or sell. Whenever I have a zero damage match because of a stupid base rush, my stats get screwed up.

Lastly, it isn't even fun.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

The problem with capping is, if you read all of the people advocating it here, they are doing it for the wrong reasons.

It's not because they enjoy the deep game play from capping.

They do it because the matchmaker can't put together proper opposing teams. Or because they like to troll. Or both teams are so scared of the other capping they just sit at their bases.

What the hell does winning do for you? Absolutely nothing.

In fact stats are going to be wiped. So it's even more worthless right now. We should be playing to enjoy ourselves. Not worrying about stats.

But like we've been reading, the reason people like to cap are all the wrong ones.

[Archon Adam Steiner]

Capping is only easy against a disorganized team. Capping is very challenging against a team that actually plays defense - as a team should (either passively or actively). Capping is going to be a more-rewarded part of the game, in future, and practicing it as a strategy is worthwhile; figuring out how to position the enemy to gain an advantage and to apply pressure to them by making them think that you will take their base is an intelligent thing to do that transcends the base FPS mentality of "SHOOT ALL THE THINGS". This is an important game mode going forward; it needs to be embraced.

Now, as to your reasons that you list for not like capping - they're very personal:

1. Time it takes to queue
2. C-Bills missed out on (lost?)
3. My stats
4. It isn't fun

Those are all personal reasons. I don't see a minute or two between games as a problem; I do not need to be constantly killing things every waking second to enjoy the game. I also don't see C-Bills as the only thing that matters - I have plenty, and if I am low, can earn more very easily. Regarding stats, just because not every game is an out-right slug-fest does not mean that I cannot test my builds or build an impressive K/D/R. The amount of 'downtime' between games is minimal. Regarding your last point, fun is very subjective; I would posit that it's pretty fun to snatch a victory from the jaws of defeat, regardless of how one achieved it.

Personally, we can agree to disagree. I'm not saying you're wrong in your preferences, but they're YOUR preferences - not everybody's. Most importantly, capping, regardless of whether you or I like it, is still tactically valid and many teams would like to have that option rather than not have it.

Edited by Arrachtas, 21 July 2013 - 11:26 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Arrachtas, on 21 July 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

Capping is only easy against a disorganized team. Capping is very challenging against a team that actually plays defense - as a team should (either passively or actively). Capping is going to be a more-rewarded part of the game, in future, and practicing it as a strategy is worthwhile.

So can you outline how you practice capping and what skill goes into it? Since the game lacks anything dynamic and most of the time people follow pre-determined map paths (even more so with the new movement changes); what exactly is there to practice?

[Archon Adam Steiner]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 21 July 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

So can you outline how you practice capping and what skill goes into it? Since the game lacks anything dynamic and most of the time people follow pre-determined map paths (even more so with the new movement changes); what exactly is there to practice?

Most people do follow pre-determined map paths, which makes them very (very) predictable.

Let us say, though, that your opposing team has far, far more tonnage than you do. Let us also say that they have far more long-range weapons, and the drop commander makes the reasonable assumption that your force would likely either be obliterated, or at best, lose a close match in a direct engagement. The option then exists to send one (or two) of your fastest 'mechs, preferably with ECM coverage and out-of-sight, to an enemy base. The cap meter starts ticking. The enemy commander, not wanting to lose, sends some of his forces back to stop the cap. This greatly improves the odds of your forces for destroying the opponent. You have now, in a way, 'levelled the field'. You can now elect to either kill the other team in engagement, or cap them out.

This is, of course, just one example out of many scenarios that are possible.

Like I said - capping tactical tool. Personally,my team does not do this every map (or even most), but if I run into some ridiculous all-Highlander team pop-tarting like crazy because they don't know how to do anything else, I'm glad to see them punished for that choice. Let us also be clear, in many leagues that exist for this game already, and in the meta-game to come, it is the *win* that matters. It doesn't matter if that means the other team is a smoking ruin or if their cap is taken - a win is a win.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Ok but you really don't need to "practice" what you talked about. I do it all the time, even in PUGs. No ECM required, though it helps.

Why would you ever practice that?

Arrachtas, on 21 July 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

Let us also be clear, in many leagues that exist for this game already, and in the meta-game to come, it is the *win* that matters. It doesn't matter if that means the other team is a smoking ruin or if their cap is taken - a win is a win.

Also this part here. That is the makings of a bad game.

If the best way to win (which is capping) is the least dynamic and most boring part of the game. And everyone does it, not because it's enjoyable, but because you HAVE to do it to win.

It's bad for the game.

Maybe if there were random base spawns, and dynamic mechanics so actual scouting was required. But in the current game? It's boring drivel.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 21 July 2013 - 11:38 AM.

[Archon Adam Steiner]

You practice it because different maps have different approaches, and different opponents defend differently... come now, we might as well stop practicing gunnery or trying different load-outs, then? If you've ever played sports, you know cannot afford to neglect any part of your game. Again, it also comes back to the win; do you want to throw yourself against an entrenched opponent that you are virtually guaranteed to lose against because they out-tonnage your team or out-long-range you? Really? I don't think so.

This is a highly personal issue. What you see as bad for the game, I laud; YES, some people do stupid things like trying to instantly cap. I'm not advocating that usesage of the tool, though, and I've never seen the tool used that way in competitive drops - not ever.

Most FPS are really, really (did I say really?) boring. They are basically death matches and nothing else. Now I like (prefer, actually) a highly tactical engagement that ends with one team or the other dismantled on the field, but I also like to have the option to win by another method if necessary. Capping (or partially capping to get an opponent to move) is such a method, and can be used as a tool to exploit another team's weakness and to gain an advantage. It's a tool that many other FPS games don't have, and that makes it useful. If you don't like it, that's fine, but I don't hear any ranting from my team or the other if somebody loses in a competitive 8-man drop by cap - there appears to be the understanding that it is indeed the win that matters. I hear whining about capping all the time in pick-up groups, though; even if there's eight guys alive on one team and only one guy alive on the other, if that last remaining guy deigns to cap, people scream... unbelievable.

Edited by Arrachtas, 21 July 2013 - 11:57 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Basic non-answer. And you still haven't really outlined how you practice it, just talked in very high level generalities.

Assault is completely and utterly static, having a capping mechanic was put in SOLEY to stop a light from running around and extending the game to the full 15 minute mark.

Give us real dynamic drops, with dynamic drop points and dynamic base spawns with defenses. Then I'll believe what you are saying about capping being fun and exciting.

[Ningyo]

The problem isn't that you can cap, the problem is the present capping system is very very bad.

Problems with present system:
--- on larger maps you CANNOT get to base in time to save it in a medium speed mech, even if only a single mech without a cap accelerator is sitting on it. If 2 or more mechs are on it even the fastest light mechs probably can't reach it in time.
--- on even small maps if the enemy gets 4+ light mechs with cap accelerator on your base it will be taken before you can get close.
--- on most maps the bases are in very non defendable locations so the attackers have the advantage. This means even if you want to defend you have to leave a significant portion of your team behind which means you will probably lose badly if they don't try to cap.
--- a player capping a base does not have to stay in the square constantly if there are defenders, it can move in and out freely. A player defending has to stay in the square constantly seriously restricting its mobility and therefore putting it at a major tactical disadvantage.
--- Base design has legs that are above the height most lights shoot at which allows a good light pilot to shoot a larger mech without it being able to return fire at all.

____________________________________________________________________________________

How to fix capping and make it work well:

--- change to having a capture accelerator, this module makes it count as though there is an addition mech capturing

--- capturing a base requires at least 2 mechs (remember capture accelerator counts as one)
this was a bad idea, in cases where both teams only have 1 mech left and one is in bad enough shape it would be suicide to engage, you could be at a standoff.

--- reduce speed of capture in following ways
for each additional mech the capture rate increases by 2/3s as much as the previous, this still gives an advantage to having more capturing at once, but prevents it from becoming near instant.
(1 mechs = 1 || 2 = 1.66 || 3 = 2.1 || 4 = 2.4 || 5 = 2.6 || 6 = 2.7 || 7 = 2.8 times as fast)

make the capture speed dependent on map size (maybe other factors too) so it will take significantly longer to capture a base on alpine or tourmaline than on river city or canyons.

--- modify bases / base locations so they are easier to defend than to attack

--- make it so capping does not start till you have been inside the base perimeter for over 3-5 seconds. (this means a defending player can move in and out of the base zone, but the attacking player has to stay on it instead of the reverse)

_________________________________________________________________________________________

After these changes you will still be able to use base capping as an alternate victory condition, and it can still be used as a tactic to separate the enemy forces or get them to leave a strong defensive location. But you will no longer have the huge problems with a group getting on a cap and it just being game over with no chance to stop them.

Edited by Ningyo, 21 July 2013 - 12:00 PM.