44 replies to this topic

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Teralitha, on 22 July 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

This Coming from a player whos team was continually dominated by my team in MW4 leagues... THAT.... is rich.

I think your memory is fuzzy, you took some B teams planets, and we came and played at your times, and removed you.

You and your team were nothing then, not even a blip on NBT's radar of good teams.

Edited by DV McKenna, 22 July 2013 - 10:48 AM.

[Homeless Bill]

This thread had no point to begin with and has now devolved into an insulting discussion of DHS. Time for the K-Town countdown.

[Teralitha]

DV McKenna, on 22 July 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:

I think your memory is fuzzy, you took some B teams planets, and we came and played at your times, and removed you.

You and your team were nothing then, not even a blip on NBT's radar of good teams.

What a comedian.... you came, and got plastered, and then again. Then you begged for another clan to come help you because you couldnt win. Stop with the... 'we played at your times' crutch. Your team sucked, plain and simple. What clan would want to remember getting beat down by pirates in their own backyard... Im sure it must have been humilating, but you shouldnt lie about it. We owned a clan homeworld's planet long enough to fully industrialize it, and fully garrison with 500 captured clan mechs from every failed attempt at taking the planet from us with the excess clan tech loaded onto our raiding fleet ships. not to mention the billions in c-bills we made just from selling the exras we had no room for.

Now lets get back on topic.

Edited by Teralitha, 22 July 2013 - 11:36 AM.

[Teralitha]

Homeless Bill, on 22 July 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

This thread had no point to begin with and has now devolved into an insulting discussion of DHS. Time for the K-Town countdown.

I wanted PGI to see which balance changes were the most wanted by the community. Of course... they have seen topics about these issues before.. supposedly, since they "listen". Its high time they acted based on what WE want.

Edited by Teralitha, 22 July 2013 - 11:21 AM.

[Homeless Bill]

Teralitha, on 22 July 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

I wanted PGI to see which balance changes were the most wanted by the community. Of course... they have seen topics about these issues before.. supposedly, since they "listen". Its high time they acted based on what WE want.

All I have to say about them listening to polls is "3PV."

[zorak ramone]

Teralitha, on 22 July 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

I remember noobs crying about them. But It didnt dominate. If it was so dominating, why isnt it dominating now? The build still exists and its more efficient than a PPC boat.

Seriously... just stop posting about K2 Guass being overpowered, if you thought it was overpowered, you were a skilless noob. Sorry if truth hurts...

The fact that you don't know why the GR K2 doesn't dominate now speaks volumes.

The reason is that the PPC and ERPPC used to completely suck. This was due to the lack of DHS, their heat, and their projectile speed. Once those things were fixed, the PPC could compete on the same level as the GR. The GR is still superior overall, but we still see PPCs because of engine DHS and because there isn't an assault that can carry 2xGR.

Once we get an assault that can pack 2xGR and at least 1xPPC, its going to make the 4xPPC Stalker and every other PPC/GR sniper look little baby mechs.

As for the skilless noob comment ... that deserves no further comment than whats been already posted.

This on the other hand:

Teralitha, on 22 July 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

This Coming from a player whos team was continually dominated by my team in MW4 leagues... THAT.... is rich. Typical clan mentality...

CSR was easily one of the top five NBT-mercs teams.

House Jurai, on the other hand, I remember only for anime avatars/sigs and for being space ninjas or something.

[AlmightyAeng]

Teralitha, on 22 July 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

What a comedian.... you came, and got plastered, and then again. Then you begged for another clan to come help you because you couldnt win. Stop with the... 'we played at your times' crutch. Your team sucked, plain and simple. What clan would want to remember getting beat down by pirates in their own backyard... Im sure it must have been humilating, but you shouldnt lie about it. We owned a clan homeworld's planet long enough to fully industrialize it, and fully garrison with 500 captured clan mechs from every failed attempt at taking the planet from us with the excess clan tech loaded onto our raiding fleet ships. not to mention the billions in c-bills we made just from selling the exras we had no room for.

Now lets get back on topic.

I find the petty argument you two are having amusing.

That said, the game you're describing sounds way more fun than the one we're playing. When do we get a game that has EFFECTS on the world that come from matches?

[ExAstris]

The most useful part of this thread is showing what issues a fair number of regular forum-goers think are actually problems with MWO, not merely what the threadstarters and 10 people who respond to everything think.

In order of the most agreed upon suggestions (as of 51 voters):




Matchmaker needs tonnage limits: This one is fairly obvious imo, and is one that PGI has near the end of their development pipeline and is something we will see by the years end (probably sooner).

Knockdowns need to be brough back: We miss them, but they days of the invulnerable lights have gone with the netcode improvements, so I don't see this as much of a balancing imperative anymore, just a lost bit of simulation realism that made truely great light pilots shine as they weaved between mechs intead of rubberbanding around them and buildings. Also in the PGI pipeline.

Assault Mode needs real bases: I haven't played assault mode since conquest came out. I'm not sure what should be done to make it better, but aparently there are alot of players who want it to be something other than what it is, but simultaneously not be a conquest clone. Seems understandable. No idea if PGi is working on this or not.

New User experience is horrible: Gotta say I dont know much about this. I started EVE when its tutorial was "Here's how you warp, here's how you shoot, here's how you mine. Good luck!" So I can't judge its quality or the need to improve it.

There should be a solo queue only option: This or something like it is a must. The number one factor in who wins a match is which team got the most premades. (with the next most important factors being if a team has any disconnects, then thirdly who has the most tonnage, and fourthly who brought the most ecm). And even if there aren't enough players to garuntee a solo vs solo only queue, we can at least make the matchmaker only drop premades against other premades, so that if there is a premade of 4 on one side, then there is a premade of 4 or a premade of 2 and a premade of 3 on the other side.




Then there is one other one that is close to having more support than dissent, but I think its due to the wording.


ECM should be removed or reworked: But not because its too complex as the original wording suggests, it should be removed or reworked because it still isn't balanced. Granted, it isn't as bad as it was when there was no BAP to counter it at 150m, and when the netcode made ravens nearly unhittable, etc. But just because it isn't "WTF are you guys doing!" bad to the point that you couldn't not notice it, doesn't mean that ECM isn't still "Common guys, this needs to be toned down quite a bit to be balanced."

I would still like to see its stealth effect removed entirely (seriously, that kind of information warfare advantage in a slow paced tactical shooter is just insane. Hell, just consider the UAV, which has a limited range, limited duration, can only be used once per match, and costs you 40k c-bills every time you want to use it. It provides your team with a vastly smaller advantage in information warfare than ECM, but actually has a balanced cost to taking it).

But, even barring that, it would be nice if BAP would counter the stealth field at all ranges and allow you to gain target lock (though it wouldn't invalidate ECM's other advantages of lock-time increases, negation of missile spread reduction, etc. i.e. it still wouldn't straight out cancel ECM unless it was the closest one within 150m). This would give BAP serious scouting/spotting use, as well as being a proper counter to ECM's most powerful attribute, the total denial of basic sensor information at almost all normal combat ranges.

[Teralitha]

zorak ramone, on 22 July 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

The fact that you don't know why the GR K2 doesn't dominate now speaks volumes.

The reason is that the PPC and ERPPC used to completely suck. This was due to the lack of DHS, their heat, and their projectile speed. Once those things were fixed, the PPC could compete on the same level as the GR. The GR is still superior overall, but we still see PPCs because of engine DHS and because there isn't an assault that can carry 2xGR.

I disagree with the view on PPC's pre DHS, I used them regularly to great effect. They had their buggy quirks of course, but they were by no means a useless weapon. They were just not a favorite of the casual player, and were really only used to great effect by the more skilled players. But now... anyone can use them to great effect in their current state. And its obviously not good for the game balance, is it?

Quote

CSR was easily one of the top five NBT-mercs teams.

I wont dispute that your team was skilled, but I take exception when you belittle a team that consistantly beat your team. Sure we were animae space ninjas's lol... but we were easily in the top 5 also. I would even say, that since it took the #1 team in the league to remove us from the clan homeworld we enjoyed for about 6 months(and your team was unable to do so), that it makes us the #2 team. You can be #3 if you want.

Anyway... removing DHS cold turkey would certainly cripple hot energy weapon boaters. However, if you notice, I also said that single heat sinks should be buffed slightly to compensate. As an FPS game, we do not need to have 2 types of heat sinks. 1 type is all we need with set values that all the weapon systems can be balanced around. Wouldnt this make more sense?

ExAstris, on 22 July 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

The most useful part of this thread is showing what issues a fair number of regular forum-goers think are actually problems with MWO, not merely what the threadstarters and 10 people who respond to everything think.

In order of the most agreed upon suggestions (as of 51 voters):




Matchmaker needs tonnage limits: This one is fairly obvious imo, and is one that PGI has near the end of their development pipeline and is something we will see by the years end (probably sooner).

Knockdowns need to be brough back: We miss them, but they days of the invulnerable lights have gone with the netcode improvements, so I don't see this as much of a balancing imperative anymore, just a lost bit of simulation realism that made truely great light pilots shine as they weaved between mechs intead of rubberbanding around them and buildings. Also in the PGI pipeline.

Assault Mode needs real bases: I haven't played assault mode since conquest came out. I'm not sure what should be done to make it better, but aparently there are alot of players who want it to be something other than what it is, but simultaneously not be a conquest clone. Seems understandable. No idea if PGi is working on this or not.

New User experience is horrible: Gotta say I dont know much about this. I started EVE when its tutorial was "Here's how you warp, here's how you shoot, here's how you mine. Good luck!" So I can't judge its quality or the need to improve it.

There should be a solo queue only option: This or something like it is a must. The number one factor in who wins a match is which team got the most premades. (with the next most important factors being if a team has any disconnects, then thirdly who has the most tonnage, and fourthly who brought the most ecm). And even if there aren't enough players to garuntee a solo vs solo only queue, we can at least make the matchmaker only drop premades against other premades, so that if there is a premade of 4 on one side, then there is a premade of 4 or a premade of 2 and a premade of 3 on the other side.




Then there is one other one that is close to having more support than dissent, but I think its due to the wording.


ECM should be removed or reworked: But not because its too complex as the original wording suggests, it should be removed or reworked because it still isn't balanced. Granted, it isn't as bad as it was when there was no BAP to counter it at 150m, and when the netcode made ravens nearly unhittable, etc. But just because it isn't "WTF are you guys doing!" bad to the point that you couldn't not notice it, doesn't mean that ECM isn't still "Common guys, this needs to be toned down quite a bit to be balanced."

I would still like to see its stealth effect removed entirely (seriously, that kind of information warfare advantage in a slow paced tactical shooter is just insane. Hell, just consider the UAV, which has a limited range, limited duration, can only be used once per match, and costs you 40k c-bills every time you want to use it. It provides your team with a vastly smaller advantage in information warfare than ECM, but actually has a balanced cost to taking it).

But, even barring that, it would be nice if BAP would counter the stealth field at all ranges and allow you to gain target lock (though it wouldn't invalidate ECM's other advantages of lock-time increases, negation of missile spread reduction, etc. i.e. it still wouldn't straight out cancel ECM unless it was the closest one within 150m). This would give BAP serious scouting/spotting use, as well as being a proper counter to ECM's most powerful attribute, the total denial of basic sensor information at almost all normal combat ranges.

Knockdowns doesnt only affect light mechs. Its a skill for all pilots to avoid collision and knockdown no matter what you pilot.

[Lefty Lucy]

Roland, on 22 July 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

Only one team should have a base.

One team assaults, one team defends. That's how that game mode really SHOULD work.

Sure, that's viable, but you would also have to give the team that originally attacks a chance to defend, which doesn't work at all with the current "drop, rinse, repeat" matches we have. It means that the two teams have to persist through several rounds, which generally only works with a lobby. We need a lobby bad.

[Teralitha]

Ghost Badger, on 22 July 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:

I find the petty argument you two are having amusing.

That said, the game you're describing sounds way more fun than the one we're playing. When do we get a game that has EFFECTS on the world that come from matches?

We are talking about mechwarrior 4 , NBT-mercs planetary leagues. Yes it was way more fun, and as you can see... highly competitive.

Lefty Lucy, on 22 July 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

Sure, that's viable, but you would also have to give the team that originally attacks a chance to defend, which doesn't work at all with the current "drop, rinse, repeat" matches we have. It means that the two teams have to persist through several rounds, which generally only works with a lobby. We need a lobby bad.

ye we do, but i wont add it to the poll since we are allegedly getting a lobby with UI2.0

Edited by Teralitha, 22 July 2013 - 12:02 PM.

[PropagandaWar]

jakucha, on 22 July 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

We're also already getting tonnage limits.

Yep I only had one scewed match over the weekend with 7 assaults 1 light vs 1 assault, meds and heavies. All the other ones even if it didn't match mech for mech had tonnage seem rather close.

[Xie Belvoule]

No one cares, PGI isn't going to listen....go play something else, MWO is dead.....

[jakucha]

Xie Belvoule, on 22 July 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

No one cares, PGI isn't going to listen....go play something else, MWO is dead.....

Tell us how you really feel.

[Xie Belvoule]

jakucha, on 22 July 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

Tell us how you really feel.

That PGI are lazy, arrogant, and way in over their heads. I just read the forums for the QQ.

The tears of Founders are particularly delicious...

Edited by Xie Belvoule, 22 July 2013 - 12:36 PM.

[jakucha]

Xie Belvoule, on 22 July 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

That PGI are lazy, arrogant. I just read the forums for the QQ.

The tears of Founders are particularly delicious...

Are you sure you aren't talking about yourself?

[zorak ramone]

Teralitha, on 22 July 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

I disagree with the view on PPC's pre DHS, I used them regularly to great effect. They had their buggy quirks of course, but they were by no means a useless weapon. They were just not a favorite of the casual player, and were really only used to great effect by the more skilled players. But now... anyone can use them to great effect in their current state. And its obviously not good for the game balance, is it?

I also used PPCs before DHS, and I did just fine using them. But there are two caveats. One, I always used them in the context of a GR (GR/2xPPC Atlas). Secondly, I did so knowing I was using an, overall, inferior config. When I switched up to a 2xGR/2xML K2, it was like I turned on easy mode.

I agree that the game balance isn't in a good state right now. We disagree on why it is. First of all, as I've posted before, the main problem with game balance right now is the lack of limitations on how much alpha you can put down in a single trigger pull. Secondly, even if you accept the big-unrestricted-alpha model, the game still needs some tweaking, although I'd argue that whats more important is boosting other weapons. I'd start with the following:
-Drop ML and SL heat back to 3 and 1
-Drop AC20 and AC10 heat to 3 and 1.5
-Drop AC2 heat to 0.5
-Match AC5 recycle time to UAC5 recycle time

Other weapons need alot of work (LRMs, pulse lasers), but I think alot of good could be done with slight tweaks.

Quote

I wont dispute that your team was skilled, but I take exception when you belittle a team that consistantly beat your team. Sure we were animae space ninjas's lol... but we were easily in the top 5 also. I would even say, that since it took the #1 team in the league to remove us from the clan homeworld we enjoyed for about 6 months(and your team was unable to do so), that it makes us the #2 team. You can be #3 if you want.

I wasn't in CSR. I was in the US HRR which, at various times, ran Burrock and GDL in NBT-Mercs. I don't recall ever fighting House Jurai in anything more than a raid or two, which we won. Also, that's not how you define "best team" or second best team. You determine these things by consisten levels of performance over time. The Chicago Bulls of the '90s were obviously the best NBA team at the time, period, but that doesn't mean they didn't loose games.

#1 was obviously IHx. The rest of the top five easily included ourselves (GDL/CB), CSR, CDS, and possibly CSA. The only person who thinks HJ was #2 is you.

Quote

Anyway... removing DHS cold turkey would certainly cripple hot energy weapon boaters. However, if you notice, I also said that single heat sinks should be buffed slightly to compensate. As an FPS game, we do not need to have 2 types of heat sinks. 1 type is all we need with set values that all the weapon systems can be balanced around. Wouldnt this make more sense?

And again, if you nerf DHS, then "GAUSS RIFLES!!!" happens. Every top tier build will require GRs, suddenly. What will you do next? Raise GR heat to 8 or something?

EDIT: what I would do to make SHS worthwhile would be to allow mixing DHS and SHS on mechs. Yes, I know it breaks CBT build rules, but if we stick to CBT build rules, SHS will be worthless anyway. This would allow mechs to fill those few remaining slots with more HS if they want. Other possibilities would be to give engines with SHS some kind of critical hit durability bonus once engine crits are implemented.

Edited by zorak ramone, 22 July 2013 - 12:45 PM.

[Xie Belvoule]

jakucha, on 22 July 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

Are you sure you aren't talking about yourself?

Nah, I just keep running my PPC/Gauss Highlander, nothing PGI does nerfs it anyway.

Edited by Xie Belvoule, 22 July 2013 - 12:44 PM.

[jakucha]

Xie Belvoule, on 22 July 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

Nah, I just keep running my PPC/Gauss Highlander, nothing PGI does nerfs it anyway.

So you are talking about yourself. It's alright, admitting it is the first step.

[Trauglodyte]

xDeityx, on 22 July 2013 - 08:48 AM, said:

Finally, the post that will fix everything. Why didn't you put this poll up earlier?

<rim shot>