48 replies to this topic

[GODzillaGSPB]

Mystere, on 23 July 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

Unless you get capped. Then the insults start to fly.

Or is it the whining?

I always think "serves them right". And when it's my team I think the same. At least one little penalty for bringing in the big mechs, nothing to whine or rant about imho. ^^

[BP Raven]

I ran my blackjack BJ-1 tonight to elite it up and had a lot of fun in the process, far more satisfying that running an Awesome (not that i count that as an assault...). Hard to argue with an AC20 that can fly and run at 93kph

[WarMonkey14]

personally i blame this on the game modes we have and the number of mechs in the game. we need a major influx of lights and especially mediums. we have little options with the mediums right now.

that and we need some more REAL objective maps. not just stand in this spot crap. that's not an objective, that's what i expect out of games that give me multiple lives and low health. with one life, you have to make the objectives fun and complex enough they outweigh just killing the enemy team.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Assault mechs are fun that is for sure but they aren't necessarily the best mech in the game. I can usually easily perform or even outperform Assaults on my Cataphract or Quickdraws.

[Sir Wulfrick]

I had a great game the other night. I was the last person standing on our team in my AS7-RS(C). The enemy team had a highlander, I think a victor and a jenner left. Though there were bits hanging off my mech all over the place, I took down the enemy victor and the highlander. The enemy jenner killed me - some of the best light mech piloting I've ever seen.

I can't remember the name of that jenner pilot but if it was you - I salute you Sir. Exceptional performance.

The point of the story? Firstly, it's not all about maximum weight. Secondly, some of us pilot assault mechs because that's what we enjoy and are good at, not necessarily just becasuse they're the current FOTM chassis type under the present meta. I hope PGI remembers this if they implement some sort of weight balance. We should ALL be allowed to pilot what we want to.

[Zerberoff]

If you drop into a match where noone mention about tactics its all about the weight...
dare you to drop into matches where your foe knows about
Teamplay and how to seperate single Mechs (yeah capturing is a tactic and it works perfectly)
then it doesnt matter if you have 300 tons difference.

I tell you, it is ALL about teamplay and nothing about weight.

[Gaan Cathal]

Sir Wulfrick, on 23 July 2013 - 05:00 PM, said:

The point of the story? Firstly, it's not all about maximum weight. Secondly, some of us pilot assault mechs because that's what we enjoy and are good at, not necessarily just becasuse they're the current FOTM chassis type under the present meta. I hope PGI remembers this if they implement some sort of weight balance. We should ALL be allowed to pilot what we want to.

As a (chiefly) light mech pilot this is why I don't like the idea of tonnage limits. Whether or not this game is 8v8 or 12v12 or 10v12 Clan vs IS the limiting factor is pilots. If heavier = better then you are, basically, gimping your team every time you drop in less than 100 tons.

Now there's two ways to solve that, the ****** useless way where you impose tonnage caps and you gimp your team if you don't bring whatever the 'tonnage optimal' mechs are (go 95 tons not 100 on your assault so your light is in a 35 tonner, not 30, etc). The other way is the smart way - make all the mechs worth bringing. Now, back when I started playing this was the case, because Assaults ate Heavies ate Mediums ate Lights ate Assaults. Nowadays, partly because of HSR (no I'm not saying get rid of HSR), that's no longer the case. Mediums are more or less trash, light Heavies are suboptimal at best and Lights are just about coping off capping and wolfpacking idiots that wander off alone - although it should be significant that they are very much "150kph or go home".

What we need to do is bring back the foodchain. I'm not really sure how, since HSR was a big part of it. Possibly slowing the torso/arm movement of heavier mechs some, to make fast Mediums and Lights genuinely difficult to track. Removing the speed cap may help a little too, but we know that's in the works. Won't really help the poor Hunchie though.

[One Medic Army]

Gaan Cathal, on 23 July 2013 - 11:48 PM, said:

What we need to do is bring back the foodchain. I'm not really sure how, since HSR was a big part of it. Possibly slowing the torso/arm movement of heavier mechs some, to make fast Mediums and Lights genuinely difficult to track. Removing the speed cap may help a little too, but we know that's in the works. Won't really help the poor Hunchie though.

Well, since we're using TT build rules, more or less, we're always going to have the following situation:
Comparing a medium at 70kph to a heavy at 70kph, the heavy gets more armor and weapons. What we can do is give a tonnage based boost to turn/twist/arm/accel/decel so that the lighter you are at a given speed the more maneuverable you are. Thus the 70kph medium actually gets an advantage to offset the extra armor/weaponry the heavy gets to bring.

Oh, and if we actually lowered the base rates for turn/twist/arm/accel/decel it might actually make lights (not protected by lagshield) non-suicidal to pilot against high-alpha assault pilots that can actually aim.

Edited by One Medic Army, 24 July 2013 - 12:00 AM.

[GODzillaGSPB]

BP Raven, on 23 July 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

I ran my blackjack BJ-1 tonight to elite it up and had a lot of fun in the process, far more satisfying that running an Awesome (not that i count that as an assault...). Hard to argue with an AC20 that can fly and run at 93kph

That's my whole point. I ran my first and only assault yesterday and it was frustrating most of the time, especially when the enemy simply had more assaults which is often the case. It's strengt against strengst, you often fight in a blob and then trash it out.

I have 6 mediums and 2 heavies, one of them a fast Dragon and it is often much more enjoyable to run them. When you encounter the inevitable enemy assault formation of doom...you can still get away, flank them, harass them, fight the few lights or even more rare medium or go cap. Yes, I do get just squashed between hammer and anvil more then I'd like, but at least I have OPTIONS!

Assault feels like: Go with the team, slug it out. If you're among enough biggies you'll win. If not you'll lose. There was a time when this was not the case. When the one, two, maybe three assaults were the center of your team, the heavy core and everyone else swarmed around them. Lights intercepted lights, mediums engaged heavies and protected the assaults. And so on...

I miss these times. And while there are still matches like this, they're pretty rare. Just look at this match:



There is ONE medium and ONE light in the entire match. This is so sad. I remember when people declared the "medium is dead" and I laughed and continued playing my 6 mediums and seeing many more in the matches. But this time it feels different. It seems they're really going away.

[MustrumRidcully]

The thing to always remember is: The match-maker only tries to give you a balanced match. It will try to even out the Elo scores (it doesn't create a virtual high Elo league and a virtual low Elo league,it happily mixes them all. It will try to balance weight classes.

But it will only try. If it can't find the right type of players (or queued up teams) to satisfy the constraints, it will loosen them up.

I believe it loosens up weight restrictions before it loosens up the Elo restrictions, so that's why you can get very bad weight matching.

This might not be the best way to do it, but it means you can't really judge well how well the match-maker actually does it job, because you don't know what else was queued. You only know the match you got, and you can conclude from poorly balanced teams that the people queued up for a game could not satisfy the full constraints.

[Gaan Cathal]

One Medic Army, on 23 July 2013 - 11:57 PM, said:

Well, since we're using TT build rules, more or less, we're always going to have the following situation:
Comparing a medium at 70kph to a heavy at 70kph, the heavy gets more armor and weapons. What we can do is give a tonnage based boost to turn/twist/arm/accel/decel so that the lighter you are at a given speed the more maneuverable you are. Thus the 70kph medium actually gets an advantage to offset the extra armor/weaponry the heavy gets to bring.

Oh, and if we actually lowered the base rates for turn/twist/arm/accel/decel it might actually make lights (not protected by lagshield) non-suicidal to pilot against high-alpha assault pilots that can actually aim.

That's exactly what I'm after. When I said 'won't help the poor Hunchie' I was referring to the lift of the speed cap. I firmly believe that there should be an inherent, non-engine related advantage in mobility both in terms of acceleration, deceleration, turning circle and especially torso twist and arm movement speed for lighter weight classes. All classes of mechs need to be viable in their own right for this sort of game, and going a little faster just doesn't cut it when you look at the reduced payload Lights and Mediums are saddled with.

[Bagheera]

Mother of God! Who was in that Trebbie? Hell of a match in any TBT, nevermind as the only medium in the whole thing.

Edited by Bagheera, 24 July 2013 - 12:54 AM.

[GODzillaGSPB]

MustrumRidcully, on 24 July 2013 - 12:45 AM, said:

The thing to always remember is: The match-maker only tries to give you a balanced match. It will try to even out the Elo scores (it doesn't create a virtual high Elo league and a virtual low Elo league,it happily mixes them all. It will try to balance weight classes.

[...]

Again, just to be clear on the matter: It is not the weight-BALANCING I don't like. It's the overall tonnage! If their team has 5 and our team has 5 assaults...that's just stupid!

Bagheera, on 24 July 2013 - 12:54 AM, said:

Mother of God! Who was in that Trebbie? Hell of a match in any TBT, nevermind as the only medium in the whole thing.

Brixx. I teamed up with him. And yes he's good. Admitedly though, since I too ran mediums only before (currently) leveling my Victor, I find it rather easy to operate my medium among many assaults. They have no choice than to concentrate on the much bigger threat that is the enemy assaults, so I'm free to roam and make damage most of the time.

It still often succeeds or fails with the assaults. When the enemy assault force wipes out our assault force I'm a very dead medium. Last man standing and everyone shoots me dead lol. ^^

Edited by GODzillaGSPB, 24 July 2013 - 01:03 AM.

[Ph30nix]

GODzillaGSPB, on 23 July 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

...the best and most fun to play!

If you're in a team that has the most asaults, you stomp the enemy team. Mediums are practically non-existent, lights become an annoyance.

...the worst and most frustrating to play!

If you're in a team that has less assaults then the enemy, you get stomped. There are no mediums to cover your flanks and lights get eaten too fast.

NO, you're both wrong and I was an ***** to start with my first assault mech today. Should've waited until PGI figures out something to make the matches more diverse!

i honestly hate assault mechs. Too Slow, with current heat all their firepower isn't even useable even with a fairly balanced build and your usually the main target of any focus fire the second your visible.

I prefer lights and other fast mechs so im not just a walking target.

[Yankee77]

Darvaza, on 23 July 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

I have been in many matches with 6 assaults on one team and 1 - 2 on the other. Weight is not factored in or is very minor.

It is factored, and not in a small way. It just gets relaxed after 3 minutes, just like Elo rating does. In extreme cases if may lead to what you're seeing.

But quite frankly I think there's a lot of confirmation bias going on in the community. Whenever I bother looking, thinking we were outclassed, I usually find that the weight balance was actually not so bad (like they might have had 1 assault more, but a medium instead of one of our heavies).

Thank you.

[Galenit]

One Medic Army, on 23 July 2013 - 11:57 PM, said:

Comparing a medium at 70kph to a heavy at 70kph, the heavy gets more armor and weapons. .

You miss the 85kph victor ...
It brings more speed, weapons and armor then your medium or heavy.

Edited by Galenit, 24 July 2013 - 05:32 AM.

[Carnesy]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 July 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

That would be false Zilla. I was on a team today that had 4 Atlas, 2 Victors(one was mine) and we lost to a Heavy/Medium unit that used Terrain beautifully! The match was as frustrating as it was enlightening.

I saw this happen last night on Tourmaline Conquest. I was running with my guildmates and pugs with almost all medium and heavy mechs (we did have 2 victors) while the opposing team had 1 light, 4 atlases, a victor, a firebrand and a few other heavy mechs. We caught the three heavies and one of the atlases when they had each isolated themselves and chewed them apart (thank god for the xl engine firebrand) then confronted the atlases around theta. We focus fired down two of the atlases while we closed range and then we drove the remaining atlas off the edge into the pit. Once he was down there a couple of our heavies dropped down to keep him pinned in there and the rest of us stayed up top and fired down on him. We never did see the light after the initial skirmish. All in all I think we lost one guy and won by cap points (more c-bills).

Edited by Carnesy, 24 July 2013 - 05:34 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Yea, I have to disagree strongly with the OP. I have tried Assaults and I hate them with a passion. Too slow and too clumsy. I prefer Heavy mechs (and Medium to some extent) far more. Heavies aren't the quickest either, but they seem a good blend of manuverability and firepower.

I figured I would try the Misery for the heck of it, and I haven't used it in ages. I can't do well in it. I jokingly called it "Buyersremorse" and I can say it has lived up to that.

I think the Victor might be the only Assault I might be descent at only because it plays more like a Heavy from what I have heard.

Some may say I am playing the Assault wrong, and I totally agree. Thing is, I don't want to play it right, because I wouldn't have fun doing so. I will just stick to the mech classes I like better.

Point is, don't make a blanket statement about what is the best in the game for everyone...because you are wrong LOL.

[GODzillaGSPB]

...I wonder if some of the answers would be different if I'd put the negative argument first instead of the positive lol. Should've known people read the first few lines and click "reply to this topic". ^^

And then I guess it is even more difficult to understand that the contradictionary opinions are kinda a metaphor on their own. Assaults are the best, assaults are the worst. Makes no sense. What remains is the fact that they are currently very, very numerous.

Edited by GODzillaGSPB, 24 July 2013 - 06:09 AM.

[Master Q]

It seems to be a circular issue.

Assault mechs are too numerous.

Therefore, other pilots in lighter chassis have an increased chance of turning a corner and coming face to face with a full lance of Assault mechs and being vaporized before they can blink, especially if it's a group of Highlanders and Stalkers loaded for bear with ERPPCs.

Therefore, the pilots who would run Heavys or Mediums (especially Mediums, since they are just kind of half-useless except for the Blackjack currently) decide to either:

• spec a speedy little Spider to avoid taking damage
  
• Load up an assault of their own, meaning they add +1 assault mech to every drop they're in.

Lather, rinse, repeat. The game is becoming more and more assaults because it's no fun to turn the corner in a Medium and be instantly vaporized. Lights can currently avoid it due to the fact that HSR and Hitboxes are bugged. Mediums are S.O.L., and most of the Heavys have been made obsolete by game balance changes and the current Meta (about all I see otherwise these days of the Heavy line is Jagermechs, and I'm not at all surprised since that chassis has both the ride-high weapon slots and ability to sport the currently meta-boosted weapons thanks to PGI's failure to fix the convergence issue).

There are a few hardy souls still desperately trying to run in Cataphracts, those poor, poor low-riding chassis. Most of the time, they just get PPC-sniped before their guns even crest the hill.