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Mechlab, matchmaking, and the economy


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#1 WardenWolf

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 07:42 AM

There have been many threads recently about the aspects of MWO outside of direct gameplay itself, and lots of folks seem to have ideas which are all over the place in terms of how these mechanics should work. Some draw from past MW games, others from BT lore, and still others from various other games released in recent years. I like some of what I've read, dislike other bits, and have had ideas I have not seen expressed anywhere else... so I wanted to write down my thoughts just to get my own head straight. Then I realized it could make good forum fodder, so here you go :)

Mechlab Background: The BT table top game allows for a ton of customization, if you want to go that route. So did past games like MW2 and 3, where customization was nearly unlimited - within only the constraints of critical space and weight. More recent games like MW4 and MC2 limited things much more drastically.

For MWO: I really like most of what I have seen so far in the videos and interviews. We are limited by weight and crit space, which looks to be almost perfectly matched to BT tabletop, and further by hardpoints of various types for weapons. This makes good sense, but I have seen in the videos that some mechs sport hardpoints that are not used by their stock variant... and that makes me worry that the current incarnation may be too lenient. I would be all for hardpoints *only* existing where the specific variant of the mech had weapons, and in the exact same quantity.

Armor and engines have also been indicated to be customizable, and I think that is good. But what I do worry about is that in the past the devs have stated customization will be free: this is something I would argue against. To be at least somewhat realistic, I think there should be moderate to steep costs associated with customization: this will encourage some to stick with stock mechs, at least for a while after getting a new chassis, and it will make for a good economic sink. Here is what I think would work nicely:

- Every time something is removed from or added to a crit space there is a cost. Removal would be half the price of adding something new. In this way, if I wanted to upgrade a weapon, I would have to:

Purchase the new weapon
Pay to remove the old one
Pay to mount the new one
Optionally, sell back the old one at a reduced price

- Armor would work in a similar fashion, with removing armor costing less than adding it. However, I would not have a requirement to purchase armor first: the cost of it would be included in the adding / removing fee.

- Engines would be expensive in their own right, and moving from a normal to a XL engine would also cost a ton because of the affected critical space. Similarly, if Endosteel and Ferrofibrous armor were ever added as options they would cost a good bit as well (not only because of their inherent costs, but because of the 14 crit spaces you'd have to add).

To round out the economic side of things, I think that repairs should be relatively expensive - with costs increasing on larger mechs because there is more armor to repair (assuming it was heavily damaged in battle) and on higher tech level weapons. This would further discourage using the biggest mechs with the best weapons all the time: make it so that such setups would be hard to recoup enough c-bills in to cover your costs. Ammo reloads should also cost a small amount, and if we have the option to flush coolant then refills of that after a match should also be a factor.

With all of that properly balanced, though, I don't think we should ever be able to completely lose a mech or even weapons in battle. Repairs for a completely destroyed weapon might be nearly as high as buying the weapon over again, but I think making players go through the trouble of making sure they repurchase all the right stuff every battle would be too much.

Another neat option for a money sink, if they need more, would be charges for dropship and jumpship travel: the further you are going from your home base (especially in the case of merc corps) the more it could cost, but maybe the rewards for fighting would be higher too? This could actually be a neat way to encourage some folks to sign up with houses: they could get free transport, since a soldier isn't usually charged by his commander to travel to a mission :(

Now, on the matchmaking side, I want a bit of realism myself. I don't want matches that pair up just certain classes or sizes of mechs, and I don't want ones with more than three factions involved: 2 houses + mercs on either side should be the maximum. At any given time I would like to see a couple of planets that are being contested on the border between each house's territory, with members of those house's military able to join those battles as well as mercenaries, and the mercs would be encouraged to go to the side with less real military presence by being offered a larger c-bill contract based on how many folks are in queue on each side.

When enough folks are queued up for a specific planet, matchmaking would be done to try and pair roughly equal teams in terms of either tonnage or some variant of battle value. At first I would not take player records into account in this, but if it was found to be imbalanced over time that could be factored in as well.

I should also note that I would like us to be able to see the basic planetary conditions - climate, gravity, maybe population and a couple of other things - before selecting a mech and signing up for combat. I do *not* think we should be able to do any more than bring a specific mech, with its loadout already set in the mechlab, to take to a planet. We should *not* be able to customize further based on the specific map, or even things like day vs night, weather, etc. That will again make folks more likely to pick a good all-around mech design, rather than something super specialized.

And lastly, I don't know if this is technically feasible or not - but I think it would amazing. I would love to see about 5-10 maps at game launch, covering various types of terrain... but with customizable climate and weather conditions. This way we might know we are going to an ice planet, but it could still be any of the various maps - just with snow, colder temps, and a chance of snow storms during the match. Then those same maps could be on a desert planet, or any other type you can think of. Maybe some maps would be unlikely to show on a certain planet - like a city map may be more or less likely depending on population - but it would allow for a lot more flexibility without having to make as many different maps. Wishful thinking?

#2 Freyar

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 07:45 AM

Why did we need another thread that just re-wrote what the whole community discussed less than three days ago?

#3 WardenWolf

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 07:50 AM

View PostFreyar, on 11 June 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:

Why did we need another thread that just re-wrote what the whole community discussed less than three days ago?


Because I thought some of it was right, some was wrong, and wanted to get some ideas out there that I hadn't seen listed anywhere else - like the specifics of the matchmaker stuff at the end, and having costs in the mechlab be associated with crit spaces being changed. The other threads on this topic are so long already that I didn't want these ideas to be lost in the last pages of an older thread.

However, I am sorry if this bothers you! I meant no offence or disrespect.

#4 Orion Pirate

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 07:57 AM

This really is a repeat of like three different threads.

My key thoughts are:

1. I want to log in.
2. I want to join a queue either solo or with a group of friends.
3. I want to wait a small amount of time or no time at all to join a match.
4. I want to pick my mech and lock it in.
5. I want to enjoy playing for 15 to 40 minutes.
6. While I am playing I want rewarding teamwork with role warfare making a difference.
7. When the game is over I want to review my mech in the mechlab and make changes if I want to.
8. I want to jump back into queue and wait for the next match.

Repeat...

I don't want:

1. Griefing.
2. Timers.
3. If I buy something it is mine, I don't want to lose it.

My only risk should be making a bad choice in combat, and my reward should be fun gameplay.

Edited by Orion Pirate, 11 June 2012 - 08:06 AM.


#5 WardenWolf

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 08:06 AM

View PostOrion Pirate, on 11 June 2012 - 07:57 AM, said:

1. I want to log in.
2. I want to join a queue either solo or with a group of friends.
3. I want to wait a small amount of time or no time at all to join a match.


Do you want to be able to pick where and who you are fighting at all? I ask in genuine curiosity: in WoT (I know, I will get flamed for mentioning this) you don't have any choice - at least in non-clan battles - and it makes for games where you might be fighting other players in tanks from your same nationality. That works okay there, since it isn't actually set in any sort of real universe, but in Mechwarrior I would think that playing with mixed groups against others of your same faction would be strange, at least to me... but I want to hear what others think :)

Also, this gave me an idea. We could have the location-specific queueing I described originally, or the option to just jump in and hit a 'general queue' which would give you entry into the first available battle for your faction. That would allow for folks who don't want to have to put time into picking a planet to fight on, and would allow less popular battle locations to fill up more quickly.

View PostOrion Pirate, on 11 June 2012 - 07:57 AM, said:


5. I want to enjoy playing for 15 to 40 minutes.
6. While I am playing I want rewarding teamwork with role warfare making a difference.
7. When the game is over I want to review my mech in the mechlab and make changes if I want to.


I wholeheartedly agree with these ideas, and I think they are absolutely doable! I do worry a little about lack of in-game voice chat at launch, but I am eager to see the command and communication options the devs are working on - and I have set up my own Teamspeak in case voice chat really is a necessary thing in pickup games :(

View PostOrion Pirate, on 11 June 2012 - 07:57 AM, said:

1. Griefing.
2. Waiting.
3. Timers.
4. If I buy something it is mine, I don't want to lose it.


Again, I absolutely agree! I don't like the idea others have mentioned of having to wait between customizations of mechs: just make it cost enough to dissuade completely trivial changes, and encourage having multiple mechs for different playstyles instead of just changing one around constantly, and leave off anything that is a pure time-sink.

#6 Adridos

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 08:07 AM

View PostWardenWolf, on 11 June 2012 - 07:42 AM, said:

For MWO: I really like most of what I have seen so far in the videos and interviews. We are limited by weight and crit space, which looks to be almost perfectly matched to BT tabletop, and further by hardpoints of various types for weapons. This makes good sense, but I have seen in the videos that some mechs sport hardpoints that are not used by their stock variant... and that makes me worry that the current incarnation may be too lenient. I would be all for hardpoints *only* existing where the specific variant of the mech had weapons, and in the exact same quantity.


I haven't read your whole post, but I can comment on this part.

The part about hardpoints, crtis and tonnage are all right, but when it come to Catapults mounting PPCs, it's the work of a different variant (everyone makes a few remakes of the mech), which is bought separately from the original Catapult. Those are basically two different mechs with different look, specs, etc., just the same general design and tonnage.

The K2 (PPC variant) takes the missile hardpoints and trades them for energy ones, while also leaving out the energy hardpoints of 4 MLs and changing them to balistic ones for 2 machineguns. Also, it changes the ammount of criticals. :)

Edited by Adridos, 11 June 2012 - 08:08 AM.


#7 Orion Pirate

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 08:15 AM

View PostWardenWolf, on 11 June 2012 - 08:06 AM, said:

Do you want to be able to pick where and who you are fighting at all? I ask in genuine curiosity: in WoT (I know, I will get flamed for mentioning this) you don't have any choice - at least in non-clan battles - and it makes for games where you might be fighting other players in tanks from your same nationality. That works okay there, since it isn't actually set in any sort of real universe, but in Mechwarrior I would think that playing with mixed groups against others of your same faction would be strange, at least to me... but I want to hear what others think :)

Also, this gave me an idea. We could have the location-specific queueing I described originally, or the option to just jump in and hit a 'general queue' which would give you entry into the first available battle for your faction. That would allow for folks who don't want to have to put time into picking a planet to fight on, and would allow less popular battle locations to fill up more quickly.



I wholeheartedly agree with these ideas, and I think they are absolutely doable! I do worry a little about lack of in-game voice chat at launch, but I am eager to see the command and communication options the devs are working on - and I have set up my own Teamspeak in case voice chat really is a necessary thing in pickup games :(



Again, I absolutely agree! I don't like the idea others have mentioned of having to wait between customizations of mechs: just make it cost enough to dissuade completely trivial changes, and encourage having multiple mechs for different playstyles instead of just changing one around constantly, and leave off anything that is a pure time-sink.



As far as where I fight, the game has that already with contested planets. But I don't need a bunch of technical stuff, I have imagination. Technical stuff just gets in the way of getting into the match which is where the fun is. As for players, if I have a team of friends, that is great, if not some random games will be worse then others, but fun will be had. As far as factions go, I don't care so much, but I am sure if it is of importance it will be handled in the contested planets.

I don't want to talk about WoT becasue SO MANY PEOPLE compare this game to it, but from everything I read, MWO and WoT are NOTHING AT ALL ALIKE in game mechanics. Comparing the two makes communication so difficult because people thinking of WoT apply a metric to MWO that does not exist.

There are no tiers.
The Role of a light mech will be just as important as an Assualt mech.
There are no pay to win items for sale.

As far as voicechat I am glad it won't be in game, it will be bad enough that I will have to read the word 'noob' then to hear it in the game...

P.S. I really think this game will have no choice but to one day offer a role play server...

Edited by Orion Pirate, 11 June 2012 - 08:17 AM.


#8 WardenWolf

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 08:20 AM

View PostAdridos, on 11 June 2012 - 08:07 AM, said:


I haven't read your whole post, but I can comment on this part.

The part about hardpoints, crtis and tonnage are all right, but when it come to Catapults mounting PPCs, it's the work of a different variant (everyone makes a few remakes of the mech), which is bought separately from the original Catapult. Those are basically two different mechs with different look, specs, etc., just the same general design and tonnage.

The K2 (PPC variant) takes the missile hardpoints and trades them for energy ones, while also leaving out the energy hardpoints of 4 MLs and changing them to balistic ones for 2 machineguns. Also, it changes the ammount of criticals. :(


Yes, I am aware of that - and I should perhaps have been a little more clear. I *love* the idea of multiple variants for a given chassis - that is very much in the BT canon. And the hardpoints changing makes perfect sense there. What I was worried about, for example, is that it looks like a stock variant Hunchback appears to have two energy hardpoints in each arm - when they should only mount one medium laser on each. Having more hardpoints on a given mech variant than its normal loadout is where my concern comes in... but I am absolutely willing to see how it plays out, since the devs are doing such a great job all around :)

#9 Adridos

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 08:24 AM

View PostWardenWolf, on 11 June 2012 - 08:20 AM, said:

What I was worried about, for example, is that it looks like a stock variant Hunchback appears to have two energy hardpoints in each arm - when they should only mount one medium laser on each. Having more hardpoints on a given mech variant than its normal loadout is where my concern comes in... but I am absolutely willing to see how it plays out, since the devs are doing such a great job all around :)


That's entirely cannon and the reason tonnage is in.
It brings options like strapping some armor to give the mech a small laser, for example. :(

#10 WardenWolf

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 08:24 AM

View PostOrion Pirate, on 11 June 2012 - 08:15 AM, said:

I don't want to talk about WoT becasue SO MANY PEOPLE compare this game to it, but from everything I read, MWO and WoT are NOTHING AT ALL ALIKE in game mechanics. Comparing the two makes communication so difficult because people thinking of WoT apply a metric to MWO that does not exist.

There are no tiers.
The Role of a light mech will be just as important as an Assualt mech.
There are no pay to win items for sale.


Alright, this will be the last time I mention WoT in this thread - I promise :)

Just so folks know, though, the reason I (and others) bring it up is because it has many similarities. Sure, there are no tiers in MWO (thank God!) but there are some things that are shared too. Being able to discuss things like how a matchmaker might work, or how you can't select a tank after you see what the map is, or other things - and to use an existing comparison that many folks are familiar with, makes things a bit easier to discuss... at least to me.

#11 Orion Pirate

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 08:26 AM

View PostWardenWolf, on 11 June 2012 - 08:24 AM, said:

Alright, this will be the last time I mention WoT in this thread - I promise :)

Just so folks know, though, the reason I (and others) bring it up is because it has many similarities. Sure, there are no tiers in MWO (thank God!) but there are some things that are shared too. Being able to discuss things like how a matchmaker might work, or how you can't select a tank after you see what the map is, or other things - and to use an existing comparison that many folks are familiar with, makes things a bit easier to discuss... at least to me.



Look at League of Legends. That is a Free to Play game whose model will be similar to MWO. At least the similarities are close enough that metrics can be compared without creating confusion.

#12 WardenWolf

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 08:30 AM

View PostOrion Pirate, on 11 June 2012 - 08:26 AM, said:

Look at League of Legends. That is a Free to Play game whose model will be similar to MWO. At least the similarities are close enough that metrics can be compared without creating confusion.


It would help if my gaming repertoire was more rounded, I guess :) I know lots of folks where I work that play LoL, but I have not. I am interested to know more, though - what aspects of gameplay in that title, especially around matchmaking and customization, do you feel would be similar to what we can expect (or what you want to see) in MWO?

#13 Orion Pirate

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 08:44 AM

View PostWardenWolf, on 11 June 2012 - 08:30 AM, said:


It would help if my gaming repertoire was more rounded, I guess :) I know lots of folks where I work that play LoL, but I have not. I am interested to know more, though - what aspects of gameplay in that title, especially around matchmaking and customization, do you feel would be similar to what we can expect (or what you want to see) in MWO?


Here are some comparisons:

1. Roles. Support, tank, melee, ranged, assassin etc... Team composition is important. (for MWO you will have Scout, Attack, Defense, Command, Support etc...)
2. Tactics and teamplay are HUGE in LoL. Teamplay is key.
3. There are types of damage in the game, magic and normal. (Ballistic, Energy and Missile.)
4. Champions have different play styles. (Mechs will have different playstyles based on their design.)

Taking this into account, in MWO when you get into the 12 vs 12 queue, everyone will have to pick roles to round out their team for the match. Balancing those roles will make for a great team and will come naturally as you progress in levels.

As for customization:

1. LoL has advancement trees, three of them, just like MWO will.
2. LoL has runes which affect your champion, I assume that modules in MWO will do the same thing.
3. LoL has base champions that you can buy with in game earned points, and skins that make them look different with cash, but they have no effect on the stats of the champion, they are only for looks.
4. MWO will have the Mechlab where you can customize your mech. LoL has nothing like this except for runes, but there are so many champions and they all play significantly differently that MWO NEEDS the Mechlab to make mechs more diverse in the game for people who want to play their support role like this vs like that...

Edited by Orion Pirate, 11 June 2012 - 08:45 AM.


#14 CompleteTanker

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 08:46 AM

I don't see the need for money sinks.

If The Devs think that people have too many or too few c-bills they can tweak the amount people earn from battle.

That's all they need to do.

#15 WardenWolf

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 08:54 AM

Thanks for the info, Orion!

You brought up one thing which I hadn't really thought about in this specific way - team roles. Obviously there are the roles you listed in MWO, but I had figured you would have to pick your mech then queue up... and once in-game you would figure out who should take what roles, based on the mechs each person brought. It sounds like in LoL - and correct me if I am wrong - you get assigned to a team and *then* pick your champion? That allows for more precise matching withing your team, so you have a balance of roles... I am just not sure if it fits with the spirit of the Battletech / Mechwarrior universe.

I had been pretty strongly for selecting mechs prior to queuing up, but I could see a case to be made for picking it after based on your description. I will have to give this some more thought, and see what the devs come up with :)

View PostCompleteTanker, on 11 June 2012 - 08:46 AM, said:

I don't see the need for money sinks.

If The Devs think that people have too many or too few c-bills they can tweak the amount people earn from battle.

That's all they need to do.


I think the concern that a lot of people have is that if costs for all mechs are equal then a disproportionate amount of folks will go for assault mechs and the highest-end weapons. What I am arguing for is having those cost more to keep up, so that you either have to be a really good player to make it work or else move around between more and less expensive mechs to avoid going broke (in terms of in-game currency, not real money). That also fits very much with Battletech canon, and just makes sense: bigger and more complex things cost more to fix when they break.

#16 Chacatumbi

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 08:58 AM

money sinks stink. I don't know why people keep wanting them... In a game where your cash is used to unlock mechs and weapons, having more money only allows you to have more customizations and is by no means overpowered such as in a game where you need money to buy better armor or weapons. Repairs after battles and needed money to buy mechs and weapons is all you need. I don't see the point in charging people money for customization inaddition to the parts. Simple matter is, if they go money sink heavy people just wont play the game.

#17 Orion Pirate

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 09:00 AM

View PostWardenWolf, on 11 June 2012 - 08:52 AM, said:

Thanks for the info, Orion!

You brought up one thing which I hadn't really thought about in this specific way - team roles. Obviously there are the roles you listed in MWO, but I had figured you would have to pick your mech then queue up... and once in-game you would figure out who should take what roles, based on the mechs each person brought. It sounds like in LoL - and correct me if I am wrong - you get assigned to a team and *then* pick your champion? That allows for more precise matching withing your team, so you have a balance of roles... I am just not sure if it fits with the spirit of the Battletech / Mechwarrior universe.

I had been pretty strongly for selecting mechs prior to queuing up, but I could see a case to be made for picking it after based on your description. I will have to give this some more thought, and see what the devs come up with :)



You queue up and wait for the matchmaking engine to find (in LoL it is typically 5 vs 5, and there is also 3 vs 3) a group of people to play with and against, and the champion selection begins. So you pick your champion AFTER the players are paired and teams are formed, not before. This makes for the diversity, because you can pick a champion (or mech) that fits in with the current team dynamic.

One thing I left out of my description of LoL is that every week there are ten free champions to play with. They cost nothing at all to use. Those champions are changed every week for new ones. This way you get to try new champions with no risk.

I am going to assume that MWO will be similar with say four free mechs to choose from to learn which ones you like to play with, and then (assuming you are a new player) once you have enough C-bills earned from playing matches with these four free mechs, you buy your first mech that you will then have and own, and begin modifying it in the Mechlab to adapt with your role and playstyle.

Edited by Orion Pirate, 11 June 2012 - 09:02 AM.


#18 WardenWolf

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 09:08 AM

View PostChacatumbi, on 11 June 2012 - 08:58 AM, said:

money sinks stink. I don't know why people keep wanting them... In a game where your cash is used to unlock mechs and weapons, having more money only allows you to have more customizations and is by no means overpowered such as in a game where you need money to buy better armor or weapons. Repairs after battles and needed money to buy mechs and weapons is all you need. I don't see the point in charging people money for customization inaddition to the parts. Simple matter is, if they go money sink heavy people just wont play the game.


I don't want money sinks for the sake of simply having them, or to slow people down, etc. What I think they are needed for is balance. It is hard to restrain from comparisons to other games, but I promised I would, so let me see how I can best do this...

The main reason for playing a specific size or type of mech will be playstyle. Some folks will want to play scouts, and will pick light or maybe medium mechs. Some will want to be fairly quick on their feet, but with punch, and will play medium or heavy. However, from what I have seen in other games - and somewhat on these forums, though most folks here are above this - I am worried that too many will simply want the biggest and baddest mech they see. If games end up being half or two-thirds Assault mechs then it would not be as fun, and it would not fit Battletech canon.

There are two ways to balance this out that I know of:

1) Tonnage limits per team. This will do the trick, but it could also mean long queue times for those who do want to play assault mechs, which might turn some players off.

2) Higher cost for upkeep on bigger mechs. This would naturally encourage people to play less expensive mechs, at least part of the time. It would also reward those who play big mechs really well, in that they might be able to make enough each round to afford to keep playing them without switching out to other mechs to make more money.

Also, no matter the size of the mechs if the best weapons - specifically, clan tech (when it comes out) and lostech - cost no more to repair then everyone will get them on all of their mechs (eventually), and that puts newer players at a severe disadvantage. Make those cost more and people will maybe have a couple per mech, or again alternate between more powerful and less powerful designs to make money.

If others have ideas about how to balance these issues without 'money sinks' (and remember, I am talking in-game currency not real cash) then please share!

#19 Xantars

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 09:12 AM

I strongly doubt we will ever fight our own house. or that stiner will ever fight Davion as we are allies. More then likely we will fight Merc's Laio Marik the FFR or then sneaky Snakes. then much later the Clans

#20 Chacatumbi

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 09:12 AM

Also, stop with the tabletop comparisons it's ridiculously annoying. This is not tabletop battletech, get over it. This is a Free to Play MW with microtransactions. Furthermore, one of the main reasons LoL has been so successful is not b/c of money sinks. Its because anyone can play the game regardless of how many riot points you bought and have the same chance. By the time you hit lvl 21 in that game you have enough for runes (which cannot be bought with real cash) so the only advantage of people with real $ is that they have more champs unlocked.
In this game, the only advantage real cash people should have is the ability to unlock more equipment and more mechs more quickly. Repair costs should be minimal else the people that don't want to use real $ will feel cheated b/c they are forced to play stock mechs for the lower repair costs otherwise they will never unlock any other mechs. Basically, money sinks stink. I don't know how else to say it, in this game money sinks would simply be regarded as devs trying to force you to buy cash. You can't twink out mechs here, such as buying a full set of "purples" on your level 1 warrior or whatever. EVERYONE has access to the same weapons and equipment it is purely based on tonnage and hardpoints. So Mr. Baller with $200 dollars worth of equipment really wont have an advantage over the guy that could only afford 4 upgrades on his mech. Mr Baller however, will have 8 mechs that are customized to HIS liking. Not broken whatsoever especially considering this is a team game.
The real answer is they need to just take a look at how much cbills you make per match and balance it THAT way. That way they can manipulate the economy in the shadows where people can't rage about it b/c they won't see the upfront money sink. Upfront sinks like charging more the more parts you buy, charging for customizing, or charging significantly more for repair costs of custom mechs is NOT it.

Edited by Chacatumbi, 11 June 2012 - 09:15 AM.






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