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Unfun Mechwarrior Second Attempt


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#1 Sable

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 12:36 AM

PPCs.... they really can't be the only optimal choice of weapon. I haven't played for a week because i got sick of PPCs and when i come back the one game i played there were quickdraws with ppcs.. jenners with ppcs, a freakin commando with a ppc. I used to think hey, thats just a funny little gimmic mech but when everyone is using them for everything all the time in the game it just isn't fun anymore.

Since my last thread was jettisoned (great way to make your community feel listened took if you want more specifics give me a chance to respond next time) Here is a more specific post with why i don't feel like playing MWO currently.

In my own personal experience with all the previous mechwarrior titles and gaming in general, I feel like the best approach to dealing with the PPC "issue" is to slow down the projectile speed. They just move too fast with the amount of damage they do and the range they have. When firing a weapon of equal damage such as the AC/10 there is nowhere near the same amount of accuracy above 500m as the PPC. Even with Gauss rifles you have to lead your target and time your shots.

In the previous mechwarrior games that we all loved, PPCs were slow"er" traveling balls of energy than what we see in the current game. Sure they had extreme range but you would only be hit with them at 1000m if you were standing still or weren't paying attention. I thought they were fine in closed beta and the heat change was nice back then. But when you sped them up the problem slowly began to take form.

Before the Heat scale was introduced i used to run a dual AC/20 jagermech and although it was deadly at close range, hitting moving targets greater than 450m was quite challenging. I still find it unusual that 1 weapon with very managable heat has such a huge penalty for firing a second. I understand it was meant to address the high alpha issue but logically it doesn't make sense at why an additional shell being fire from a separate gun in a separate location would incure such a huge buildup of heat. But i'm getting off topic here.

In the current game at 1000m i can step out from cover and instantly get tagged by ppc after ppc. Its like bopping a dog on the nose with a newspaper. So freakin anoying with little chance of them missing. If PPCs were more difficult to hit with i truely believe their popularity would shift into a different role, from a super awesome sniper weapon thats paired with Gauss rifles to a medium range brawling weapon. ER Large lasers would become useful as its easier to hit with a beam than a timed projectile. The PPC would not be appealing on light mechs for the same reason autocannons aren't appealing on them. Its much harder to fight off other fast and light mechs with weapons that require timing to land your hits.

As for the heat scale, I constantly have to go back and read the command chair post and look at all the pictures and graphs to tell what kind of penalty i would get for certain weapon max alphas. And i literally can't figure it out without those charts. There's nothing in the mechlab to tell me or warn me or provide any kind of insight as to the limits of the weapon systems. I know you guys put a lot of work into developing it but i think it causes more problems than it will solve. I'm thinking about future mechs that have variants that blow this heat scale way out of proportion. And those are stock variants that will have problems. Even the hunchback with the 8 medium lasers will throw the new guys under the bus because they won't understand why their heat is so out of control.

If you do come back and read this i hope this gives you some insight.

Edit: Since we have a handy dandy Test scheduled on thursday would you consider adjusting PPCs speed and let the community have at it? I understand your testing is currently for the 12v12 stability but weapon testing seems like it could reveal some interesting results. Even if those changes never came to be, adjusting them in all sorts of ways would provide valuable data.

Edited by Sable, 24 July 2013 - 12:42 AM.


#2 Lefteye Falconeer

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 12:43 AM

We are repeating ourselves over and over and over. The thing is, it is still true. PPCs are still THE most efficient all-around weapon, even more so now that people are just coupling it with AC20s and Gauss Rifles.

The game is definitely improving with every patch but until they make long range weapons very situational, instead of flat out better and dominant, we won't have the Mechwarrior experience we deserve, and MWO won't be the game it deserves to be.

#3 Xie Belvoule

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 12:52 AM

View PostSable, on 24 July 2013 - 12:36 AM, said:

Since my last thread was jettisoned (great way to make your community feel listened took if you want more specifics give me a chance to respond next time) Here is a more specific post with why i don't feel like playing MWO currently.


I agree, the meta is stale.....

Posted Image

Edited by Xie Belvoule, 24 July 2013 - 12:54 AM.


#4 Waking One

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 01:04 AM

Funny how masses of players first asked for the PPC buffs back when you couldn't hit properly with them.

They need to be brought back to their old values: slowed down and heat increased.

#5 stjobe

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 01:41 AM

View PostWaking One, on 24 July 2013 - 01:04 AM, said:

Funny how masses of players first asked for the PPC buffs back when you couldn't hit properly with them.

What's funny about it? The PPC was useless with low projectile speed, 10 heat, and no HSR.

Problem was that PGI first upped the projectile speed and lowered the heat, and then also introduced HSR. One of those would have been enough buff to make the PPC viable, both made it the over-used weapon it is today.

View PostWaking One, on 24 July 2013 - 01:04 AM, said:

They need to be brought back to their old values: slowed down and heat increased.

Yep, those were only increased (and lowered) because that was the only way PGI had to increase the PPC's accuracy. When HSR came into the picture, the first thing that should have been done was to lower the PPC projectile speed and increase it's heat.

It doesn't need that double-buff any more.

#6 Elizander

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 01:47 AM

View PostWaking One, on 24 July 2013 - 01:04 AM, said:

Funny how masses of players first asked for the PPC buffs back when you couldn't hit properly with them.

They need to be brought back to their old values: slowed down and heat increased.


I wasn't expecting them to overshoot with balance regarding PPC projectile speed and heat but the old PPCs certainly needed some help. Hopefully the next weapon balance pass will fix them up soon. Once PGI is done with 12v12 testing they can set a series of balance tests on the public test server for various weapon values.

#7 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 02:02 AM

I still think the biggest buff to the PPC was HSR. It was obviously a needed buff. Coupled with speed increase and heat decrease, it might have been too much. Well, and DHS were a buff, of course, but that wasn't enough. (It was, however, a good nerf to the Gauss Rifle, suddenly the gap between ballistics and energy weapons became closer.)

But the biggest advantage to all high-damage ballistics is the precise application of damage. Without HSR, this didn't really happen as much, meaning you likely needed more shots for the same effect, which meant you would make more heat.
But with HSR, the effective damage output of PPCs is finally high enough that it can operate well within the high heat capacity, where before, you simply needed 1, 2 or more shots extra and would have already overheated with the PPC but not with other weapons (even if they suffered the same lack-of-HSR problem.)

#8 MonkeyCheese

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 02:14 AM

View PostSable, on 24 July 2013 - 12:36 AM, said:

Since my last thread was jettisoned (great way to make your community feel listened took if you want more specifics give me a chance to respond next time)

THIS

View PostSable, on 24 July 2013 - 12:36 AM, said:

As for the heat scale, I constantly have to go back and read the command chair post and look at all the pictures and graphs to tell what kind of penalty i would get for certain weapon max alphas. And i literally can't figure it out without those charts.

AND THIS



that is all.

#9 JokerVictor

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 04:33 AM

Posted Image

#10 General Taskeen

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 04:56 AM

OP I agreed with your original thread and it every right to be in the balance thread. The past Mech Warrior games simply had better underlying mechanics for weapons and equipment that was balanced. The only thing in common with MW3/4, or before those, is that MWO is also plagued with the issue of 'full customization.'

#11 El Bandito

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 05:25 AM

Poptarting Quickdraws are one prime example of what is wrong with this game. Quickdraws are not suppose to be that kind of mech, at all.

Edited by El Bandito, 24 July 2013 - 05:27 AM.


#12 Mechteric

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 05:26 AM

I think they may be considering raising base PPC heat back where it was earlier this year, that could help some. Also they have said they might possibly consider making the PPC do splash damage, so the damage is spreat out rather than all in one spot (MWLL also does this and it works rather well)

#13 El Bandito

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 05:27 AM

View PostCapperDeluxe, on 24 July 2013 - 05:26 AM, said:

I think they may be considering raising base PPC heat back where it was earlier this year, that could help some. Also they have said they might possibly consider making the PPC do splash damage, so the damage is spreat out rather than all in one spot (MWLL also does this and it works rather well)


Revert its speed back to 1200, heck even to 1000 since it doesn't consume ammo. Add some "skill" to it.

#14 Mechteric

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 05:34 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 24 July 2013 - 05:27 AM, said:


Revert its speed back to 1200, heck even to 1000 since it doesn't consume ammo. Add some "skill" to it.


not a bad idea as well. Not sure if they should do all of these nerfs at once, but hopefully they'll consider them all.

#15 Voivode

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 05:37 AM

I think the speed is fine, just take the heat back to where it was before they dropped it. Leave the PPC as the most accurate ranged weapon but make it have the kind of severe heat that limits how often you can fire it and makes boating it harder. But that was when PGI was balancing things with a sledgehammer approach. I think they've kind of gotten the idea that small, incremental changes tend to be better. They have mentioned that they were considering bringing PPC heat values up in the next few patches.

View PostEl Bandito, on 24 July 2013 - 05:25 AM, said:

Poptarting Quickdraws are one prime example of what is wrong with this game. Quickdraws are not suppose to be that kind of mech, at all.


Pop tarting is pretty rare these days. It takes a pretty large amount of skill to actually hit something, the JJs add to your heat, and the process has a slower firing rate than regular sniping. Every once in a while you will see someone do it, but it isn't like the days when Highlanders and Cataphract 3Ds ruled the game.

#16 Voivode

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 05:41 AM

View PostElizander, on 24 July 2013 - 01:47 AM, said:


I wasn't expecting them to overshoot with balance regarding PPC projectile speed and heat but the old PPCs certainly needed some help. Hopefully the next weapon balance pass will fix them up soon. Once PGI is done with 12v12 testing they can set a series of balance tests on the public test server for various weapon values.


Totally what I mean by they used to balance with a sledgehammer. I think they've learned their lesson....I HOPE they've learned their lesson lol

#17 Zypher

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 05:50 AM

I think changing the projectile speed is the wrong approach. PPCs are designed to be a high heat long range energy weapon, but the more you mess with the speed the more unlikely the PPC is going to hit anything at range unless a target is sitting completely still.

What you would see is no one using the PPCs with a change like this unless the change was so small it was almost impossible to tell the difference.

It would make more sense to have the PPC do splash damage or increase the heat to where it is supposed to be. But again, PPCs are the not problem as much as convergence, take out the PPCs and people will focus on gauss builds. ATM there isn't a assault that can support a similar ppc layout with gauss, but that time will come and you will be back at square one.

#18 Voivode

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 05:57 AM

Another problem is map design. Drop in a mech with SRMs/AC20/ML combo of some kind and you risk getting Alpine where your build is VERY suboptimal for the situation. There isn't a map where dropping with PPC/GAUSS combo of some kind is suboptimal. A dense, truly urban map is long overdue for this game. I mean, River City is a good map and all, but it I'm talking nothing but short sight lines and a huge numbers of avenues of approach where the current meta of "make it heavy and load it with PPCs" will be a liability. A close range, medium and light mech playground.

#19 Master Q

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 05:58 AM

View PostVoivode, on 24 July 2013 - 05:37 AM, said:

Pop tarting is pretty rare these days. It takes a pretty large amount of skill to actually hit something, the JJs add to your heat, and the process has a slower firing rate than regular sniping. Every once in a while you will see someone do it, but it isn't like the days when Highlanders and Cataphract 3Ds ruled the game.


I can poptart just fine in a Victor, and I have no problem hitting - you just have to hit apex and let go of the jets and then your aim will settle back to fire.

That being said, it is and should be a situational thing. Use it to take a potshot or two at advancing mechs from behind cover; use it to take some shots when your buddies are in the way and you don't want to shoot them in the back but a slow fire rate is better than an effectively zero fire rate. Using it as a primary tactic is, yes, not the brightest idea and shouldn't really be effective if not for the pinpoint convergence problem.

Edited by Master Q, 24 July 2013 - 05:59 AM.


#20 DaZur

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 07:30 AM

PPC / EPPC (and Gauss) are apex ranged weapons... As they conically should be.

The problem is not that the PPC is overpowered... It's because it lacks a soft balance mechanism (heat / cycle-time) and they are equally useful inside brawl-range. This creates the scenario where the remaining weapons are bypassed in favor of the PPC because their is little incentification to utilize them in favor of the PPC.

The PPCs don't need nerfing... They just need soft counters in place to re-position them as a "situational" weapon and not the one-size-fits-all weapon it presently represents.





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