88 replies to this topic

[Alaskan Nobody]

Kjudoon, on 13 April 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:

Be interesting to see if lights couldn't mount weapons bigger than 3 tons per Hardpoint, now wouldn't it?

Panther and Urbanmech (plus a few others who escape my immediate memory) would like to argue against that - but they could also be given bigger limits - so it would all depend on implementation.

[Adiuvo]

Kjudoon, on 13 April 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:

Lights should not be able to take assaults. Basically the game has them to robust. You would never EVER take on an Atlas with a light in TT let alone in most of the video games. Why? Because you up and die... quickly. Here? Pfffft... Assault spiders and Jenners abound.

At least the notion of hardpoint weight limits is coming so those ERLLs and PPCs on lights will potentially be going away soon. Be interesting to see if lights couldn't mount weapons bigger than 3 tons per Hardpoint, now wouldn't it?

This isn't a single player game. Assaults need to be vulnerable just as other classes are.

[PhoenixFire55]

Kjudoon, on 13 April 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:

Lights should not be able to take assaults. Basically the game has them to robust. You would never EVER take on an Atlas with a light in TT let alone in most of the video games. Why? Because you up and die... quickly. Here? Pfffft... Assault spiders and Jenners abound.

At least the notion of hardpoint weight limits is coming so those ERLLs and PPCs on lights will potentially be going away soon. Be interesting to see if lights couldn't mount weapons bigger than 3 tons per Hardpoint, now wouldn't it?

Sounds like a butthurt LRM boat...

My TT KitFox A with a Gauss rifle will take on any of your Atlases any day. I'd love you to try and make me "die quickly". And it is a canon 30 ton TT build with a 15 ton weapon onboard. I'm sure you are aware that Ubranmechs come with AC10s and AC20s on stock builds as well. Not even bringing up all the canon TT builds with LLs and LPLs onboard.

There is no notion whatsoever about hardpoint weight limits. And if you are bringing TT into the discussion then stick to it instead of going totally against it in the very next sentence.

[Modo44]

When hit detection works, and you take basic defensive steps+aim, dealing with lights requires about two alphas -- one per leg. If you have bad aim, or do not know to walk back and counter the light's movements, that is on you, not the game. The game itself is a problem only if HSR decides to not register your shots (cheers to all the Gauss-immune lights I met recently).

[Kjudoon]

Of course, the other solution is to expand the number of variants and make them uncustomizable.

[Koniving]

EyeDie I, on 24 July 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:

either i drop in alpine with all heavies and assaults and we can barely cap or drop with lights that never cap.whats up?why choose conquest and not cap?

I suspect it has to do with this.

Capping does not pay.
Doing so prevents the player from making any money.

Capping takes upwards of 30 seconds to 1 minute, depending on the level of 'capture' on said point.

Aside from time consuming, it is boring.

More than 80% of conquest matches are NOT won by capture but by annihilation.

It's always the team that focuses on capturing bases that gets wiped out.

Need more? o.O;

I personally think the time to capture should be no longer than 20 seconds for a single mech. Captures should be quick and move on so that the fight is always relocating. This gives assaults a reason to stay behind (to defend them) instead of running the death train.

And captures should pay.

Of course, increase the points to result in said capture victory. Say 1,500 instead of 750? Maybe 1,000? But only on the larger maps.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

EyeDie I, on 24 July 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:

either i drop in alpine with all heavies and assaults and we can barely cap or drop with lights that never cap.whats up?why choose conquest and not cap?

http://mwomercs.com/...ap-in-conquest/

Just sayin'...

[Vincian]

If Lights filled the role you described, they wouldnt be fun to play. So I am glad, we dont play TT. All of my lights never used a weapon which weighted more than 2 tons per HP (MPLAS).

Kjudoon, on 13 April 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:

Lights should not be able to take assaults. Basically the game has them to robust. You would never EVER take on an Atlas with a light in TT let alone in most of the video games. Why? Because you up and die... quickly. Here? Pfffft... Assault spiders and Jenners abound.

At least the notion of hardpoint weight limits is coming so those ERLLs and PPCs on lights will potentially be going away soon. Be interesting to see if lights couldn't mount weapons bigger than 3 tons per Hardpoint, now wouldn't it?

[Felio]

When I was a new player (my first mech was the SDR-5V, unfortunately), I ran and capped almost exclusively. If my team died, I figured, that was their responsibility -- I was doing my job. A lot of times I pulled off a sole survivor win with capture points.

But a light's job is a little more complicated than that. Because kills tend to snowball as one team outnumbers the other, the early game is very important. The team will do fine for a little while if you start out with two bases. And if you can squeeze it, taking three or even four can put pressure on the enemy team to split up. It takes experience to learn to make that judgment call.

It is a light's job, however, to make sure the team does not lose on points. You can win on kills, lose on kills, or win on points. But if your team loses on points, it's because you let them down.

[InspectorG]

Kjudoon, on 13 April 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:

Lights should not be able to take assaults. Basically the game has them to robust. You would never EVER take on an Atlas with a light in TT let alone in most of the video games. Why? Because you up and die... quickly. Here? Pfffft... Assault spiders and Jenners abound.

At least the notion of hardpoint weight limits is coming so those ERLLs and PPCs on lights will potentially be going away soon. Be interesting to see if lights couldn't mount weapons bigger than 3 tons per Hardpoint, now wouldn't it?

Assaults strike fear into mediums and heavies. Lights strike fear into assaults. More than one light should definitely ruin an assault's plans.
If assaults should just be able to kill lights with one half powered strike then why play anything other than assault?

As far as i remember, lights in TT OUT MANEUVER assaults rewarding them with back shots, quicker access to cover, tougher gunnery modifiers.

Plus you re not really placing your view of lights being OP in any context of scenario/mission/campaign settings.
In a big flat open terrain with no cover and the light starting very far away, yes the assault will likely have the advantage due to likely having more long range weapons and a clear field of vision.
On the other hand, if the scenario has a tight time limit, limited visibility, generous terrain, the light can take advantage IF THE SKILL IS THERE.

How does an Assault beat a sneaky light? Very carefully. He can either have teammates help. Or if he is solo, which is the price for going solo, he will have to stop what he is doing and address the light. IF he can get 2-3 alphas at the light's legs he has a good chance to kill the light. But, a good light will try to not let that happen. So it becomes a match of skill.

And if you think lights are overpowerd with their light armor and usually light weapons, you should prolly train more on how to fight lights. No nerf bat needed.

As far as capping:

It seems to be a juggling act that doesnt seem to reward as much as it should. Conquest should reward cap more, kills less, and have quicker cap times.
The 'meta' for conquest seems: get 3 caps early, brawl early, evade mid game and steal/nullify caps if you are winning by cap and the other team is more interested in cap.
If the other team came to fight and you are lighter, cap. Weight being similar, brawl.
If you are losing it seems brawling and nullifying are the way to go, but i admit im no pro so others maybe able to give better advice on teh matter

[Bigbacon]

as I light only player, I do tend to cap but unless you have help to do so, which doesn't happen often, you end up being out of the fight for many minutes. In that time, things can go well or poorly and often end up being the lone mech still alive and the loss is inevitable because they'll either cap or kill.

light packs on the other hand can be OP in conquest. just 2 or 3 together can command capping the map while others brawl.

[ShinVector]

InspectorG, on 26 May 2014 - 07:18 PM, said:

And if you think lights are overpowerd with their light armor and usually light weapons, you should prolly train more on how to fight lights. No nerf bat needed.

Dude... I think you missed the point... The dude is an LRM defender, see the problem ?

[Tesunie]

ShinVector, on 27 May 2014 - 05:24 PM, said:

Dude... I think you missed the point... The dude is an LRM defender, see the problem ?

In the post you quoted and the quoted post that was quoted (now try saying that ten times fast!), I saw no mention of LRMs. So, I must ask... what does being an "LRM defender" have to do with anything here?


Also, I wanted to congratulate you on getting 3rd place in the tournament for Liao. I saw you were in first place for that faction for a while there. Impressive scoring on your end.
(I could have played more matches, but I always have to work on the days the events happen... Probably wouldn't have made any real difference in my rank/score, as I was still in 326 rank, with a score of 1,505 in the end. Still consider myself an average to above average mechwarrior. Nothing special to see here.)

[1453 R]

Playing Conquest acceptably involves doing your best to ensure that your team is always up on caps and never neglecting the match score.

Playing Conquest well involves knowing when you’re more valuable to your team in the thick of the fight pressuring the enemy than off in Lalaland standing on a point while your allies crumble in the main fight.

There are (many) times when it’s better to pursue a decisive numbers advantage than to try and force several early caps. If you’re up 3/2 in the first few minutes, no need to keep going. If you’re tied at 2/2 and the last point is being firmly debated, then no, do not run off to the enemy spawn and try to decap their start point. It takes forever, and in the meantime your team is more likely to lose that center-point debate.

Knowing where the line between ‘time to cap’ and ‘time to fight’ is takes time and experience, but it’s an important distinction to be able to make. And frankly I expect it to stay that way even if/when they do update Conquest to make capping more important/viable. After all, dead ‘Mechs cap no points.

[Xoxim SC]

If there were 3 capture points, each spread out a good distance between one another, and each lance spawned near one it would be a very interesting dynamic. Having two lances equally duking it out over control of a control point would be a fun experience I think. This of course would only work with proper weight limits within lances.

The current iteration of Conquest in my opinion is relatively boring, and gets drug out at times. It's like sitting there during Skirmish waiting for that last damned Raven 3L, or Spider, to die, but they won't because they're too busy trying to rack up damage against 6+ people they have no chance at killing.

Edited by Todd Lightbringer, 27 May 2014 - 05:52 PM.

[Tesunie]

Todd Lightbringer, on 27 May 2014 - 05:52 PM, said:

...but they won't because they're too busy trying to rack up damage against 6+ people they have no chance at killing.

I have seen more than one "last Spider" (or any other last mech) who did the hide and hit trick, and they almost killed the last people remaining on the enemy team before they pinned him in and killed him. So, I wouldn't exclude them... They can sometimes be the VIP of the match and end up winning the game because the rest of the team damaged the enemy so much in the fight. (I was one of those lights once. I can recall a match with my Cicada a long while ago, where I was legged and was certain I was going to die. Last man standing. The remaining 4 enemy mechs trickled into me, and died within one or two alphas from me... and I killed them all. That was an "Oh my gosh... what just happened" kinda match.)

[ShinVector]

Tesunie, on 27 May 2014 - 05:38 PM, said:

In the post you quoted and the quoted post that was quoted (now try saying that ten times fast!), I saw no mention of LRMs. So, I must ask... what does being an "LRM defender" have to do with anything here?


Also, I wanted to congratulate you on getting 3rd place in the tournament for Liao. I saw you were in first place for that faction for a while there. Impressive scoring on your end.
(I could have played more matches, but I always have to work on the days the events happen... Probably wouldn't have made any real difference in my rank/score, as I was still in 326 rank, with a score of 1,505 in the end. Still consider myself an average to above average mechwarrior. Nothing special to see here.)

Just putting a few pieces of information together the dude likes LRM alot (to the point that he doesn't care what you say just don't touch his LRMs), apparently drives assaults too but hates lights.
Assault LRM Super boats... Yes those things quite often and I see how light mechs spoils their LRM storming fun.

--

Thanks dude... It was a tough fight... I wish I could have done better though, I know I can..
Bad time slot by PGI, asian lag, ELO banding, Slow MM,...
Not much of an excuse because I know Eglar deals with the same problems if not worst.. (But he is more meta than I am )
Anyway I see my score is not far off from Edmister... Looks about right for the light pilots on the leader board. Mostly Raven 3L this time around... I didn't realise till this tourny that getting 1K damage is far more important on a good average score than kills... Kills and assists will turn the average score to great score..

[Tesunie]

ShinVector, on 27 May 2014 - 06:21 PM, said:

Just putting a few pieces of information together the dude likes LRM alot (to the point that he doesn't care what you say just don't touch his LRMs), apparently drives assaults too but hates lights.
Assault LRM Super boats... Yes those things quite often and I see how light mechs spoils their LRM storming fun.

--

Thanks dude... It was a tough fight... I wish I could have done better though, I know I can..
Bad time slot by PGI, asian lag, ELO banding, Slow MM,...
Not much of an excuse because I know Eglar deals with the same problems if not worst.. (But he is more meta than I am )
Anyway I see my score is not far off from Edmister... Looks about right for the light pilots on the leader board. Mostly Raven 3L this time around... I didn't realise till this tourny that getting 1K damage is far more important on a good average score than kills... Kills and assists will turn the average score to great score..

(You realize some people could say the same for me, but I'm willing to have changes, just normally not the changes people are asking/demanding for... But that is a topic for a different thread, and I think we already been there, haven't we?)

I was trying to use my typical mechs, though I did well in my Dragon. I had mixed results with LRMs, as ECM was extremely thick in a lot of my matches. Good thing I bring in a good mix. I even played my old Quickdraw for a while too. It was fun to play my older mechs again. (I didn't bring out my Stalker, as I knew ECM would probably eat it alive. AKA: My LRMs would be useless, and my SSRMs would be too if they came in a swarm, which they always seemed to... (I'm sure you've also seen my Stalker build...) I probably should have ran it anyway, just to see how well it could do under the least favorable conditions for it. But... it's the only mech in my entire roster that I actually care about it's stats!

I wished I could have gotten a higher score, but I did only a little less actual score wise compared to the last tournament. And I did that last one solely in my Griffin too I believe. I consider myself a strategist. Not such a great warrior personally. It was still nice to see a familiar name on the leaderboards though, so I wanted to make sure I congratulated you on your performance when next we met.

(And this whole post is off topic. Typical for me I guess... )

[Kjudoon]

ShinVector, on 27 May 2014 - 05:24 PM, said:

Dude... I think you missed the point... The dude is an LRM defender, see the problem ?

Duh.... And I don't have a problem gunning down Lights with LRMs as much as I get disgusted with how lights get so many game mechanic breaks while Assaults get nerfed left right and sideways. BTW, I play only Victors who've been screwed to the deck by Paul making them just about worthless. Why it is forced to maneuver as slow as an atlas is beyond stupid. But that's PGIbalance for you. It's not like they're going to ever make them as fragile as they should be but offset that with the secondary roles they should have. That'd require storylines, bigger maps, deeper content and a direction beyond deathmatch which is all every map is currently. Lights get screwed in the gameplay design so they get buffed to make them worth something, distorting what they are and making a messed up meta because of it. I'd play a light more if there was something to actually do with it that was more lore and role specific.

I guess that's too much to ask, though.


Oh, and Shin, before you make another dozen wrong assumptions about what I drive and play, you can see what mechs I used in the tourney over on the build thread. You'll also notice how few LRMs I use. I seem to recall you only once in my elo bracket... must have been the time differential, but I saw Proton, Elgar, Twinkie Overlord and other similar guys most matches. So good on you for getting your 3rd place finish. I was only a lowly 49th in Marik. Therefore I must not have any valid points.

:::genuflects and scrapes leaving the royal presence:::

Edited by Kjudoon, 27 May 2014 - 07:01 PM.

[ShinVector]

Kjudoon, on 27 May 2014 - 06:53 PM, said:

.....

Damn... I missed you then... Would have thrown the match to go after you.. Hahah....
Strangely I almost never come across you guys.. Probably the timing issue.

Victors are one of the best if not the best mech for getting high scores in the tourny dude.

Edited by ShinVector, 27 May 2014 - 07:55 PM.