578 replies to this topic

[Jonny Taco]

giganova, on 26 July 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

There are brackets now?

Would it help you understand what I was referring to if i put "brackets" in quotes?

My original usage of the term may not fit the specific definition commonly associated with Tournament style ladders ect. While there are no hard brackets, as I'm sure you were trying to get at, there most certainly are "soft brackets" created by the current elo system... I did not really think that was overly difficult to grasp but as usual on the internet "Common Sense" is apparently not that common.

Edited by lartfor, 26 July 2013 - 08:47 AM.

[3rdworld]

giganova, on 26 July 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

Which they don't

Really?

The last graph they posted looks like a faily normal bell curve to me.

Edited by 3rdworld, 26 July 2013 - 08:47 AM.

[giganova]

That looks fairly below the average. I don't think you know how to interpret that graph. The "curve" you are relying on is not a belle curve, as it does not represent the average, especially while looking at the ONLY metric the chart denotes. Get your gaussian functions right.

[tenderloving]

giganova, on 26 July 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

That looks fairly below the average. I don't think you know how to interpret that graph. The "curve" you are relying on is not a belle curve, as it does not represent the average, especially while looking at the ONLY metric the chart denotes. Get your gaussian functions right.

I disagree with 3rdworld often, but Jesus man you are really grasping here.

[xDeityx]

Joseph Mallan, on 26 July 2013 - 05:55 AM, said:

As is 2-3 PPCs are fine. Perfect in fact. But to much of a good thing is bad.

No, they aren't. If 1 PPC was balanced then 4 would be. Just like Large Lasers.

[Riptor]

3rdworld, on 26 July 2013 - 06:53 AM, said:

You actually have no idea what you are talking about.

Grats.

What a stunning comeback.. did you came up with that all by yourselfe?

"Competitive" players seek competition... then how come so many of you so called competitive players keep showing up sinc dropping in PuG matches and not using the 8 man drops where.. you know.. there are actually people who do look for this kind of competition?

There is an astonishing lack of team variety among the 8 man drops... wonder how that could be... but meanwhile theres no shortage of sinc droppers...

Nothing?Thought so.

Lets face it.. most of the "competitive" players in MWO do not look for competition.. they look for easy wins. You want comeptitive players? Go look at LoLs tournaments.. THAT is competitive play.

Not this pugs stomping that has been going on from the very beginning. Thats why i cant take anyone serious that is talking about their "skill" when it comes to MWO.

If MWO actually had Team tournaments then it would show who has the real skill and who hasnt and whos actually competitive and whos only out for an easy win.

No.. they are min/maxers.. not competitive players. Big difference. One uses the games numbers to give themselves the biggest advantage mathematically possible, and the other is actually out to test their skill at the game itselfe against an oponent, ideally of equal or better skill. Sure competitive players also min/max but then again they actually seek out players who do so. Min/maxers are just out for a quick win by all means possible.

Edited by Riptor, 26 July 2013 - 09:37 AM.

[Jestun]

Riptor, on 26 July 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

What a stunning comeback.. did you came up with that all by yourselfe?

"Competitive" players seek competition... then how come so many of you so called competitive players keep showing up sinc dropping in PuG matches and not using the 8 man drops where.. you know.. there are actually people who do look for this kind of competition?

Nothing?Thought so.

Lets face it.. most of the "competitive" players in MWO do not look for competition.. they look for easy wins. You want comeptitive players? Go look at LoLs tournaments.. THAT is competitive play.

Not this pugs stomping that has been going on from the very beginning. Thats why i cant take anyone serious that is talking about their "skill" when it comes to MWO.

If MWO actually had Team tournaments then it would show who has the real skill and who hasnt and whos actually competitive and whos only out for an easy win.

No.. they are min/maxers.. not competitive players. Big difference. One uses the games numbers to give themselves the biggest advantage mathematically possible, and the other is actually out to test their skill at the game itselfe against an oponent, ideally of equal or better skill. Sure competitive players also min/max but then again they actually seek out players who do so. Min/maxers are just out for a quick win by all means possible.

Your definition for "competitive players" seems to be "has 7 friends online"...

[Riptor]

In this kind of game? Yes. Cause you know.. its a team game.

Or have you forgotten about all the times the so called competitive crowd yells "l2 team play" at the faces of peoples who are annoyed by getting wasted in PuG games by other teams?

All the tournaments up to this point have been single pilot affairs.. in a team game.

Wich introduces an aspect to the formula that makes ones personal skill mostly null and void.. Luck.

If you drop with a bunch of stock trial mechs... your score is ruined. If the enemy is an 8 man sinc drop, guess what? Your score is ruined.

Also the more time you spend on the game the higher your ranking in the tournament, it doesnt matter how good you are if you can get outgrinded eventually. They have taken some steps to mitigate that a bit but in the end someone who spends 8 hours of play will eventually have a better score then someone whos only able to play for 2 or 3 hours.

So in the end it doesnt boil down to whos the most skilled but who gets the most lucky with his or her teammates and if you actually have a live or not.

And yet here we are discussing "competitive" play even thought the very infrastructure of it isnt either used or not there to begin with in this game.

Edited by Riptor, 26 July 2013 - 09:47 AM.

[Jestun]

Riptor, on 26 July 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

In this kind of game? Yes. Cause you know.. its a team game.

Or have you forgotten about all the times the so called competitive crowd yells "l2 team play" at the faces of peoples who are annoyed by getting wasted in PuG games by other teams?

All the tournaments up to this point have been single pilot affairs.. in a team game.

Wich introduces an aspect to the formula that makes ones personal skill mostly null and void.. Luck.

If you drop with a bunch of stock trial mechs... your score is ruined. If the enemy is an 8 man sinc drop, guess what? Your score is ruined.

Also the more time you spend on the game the higher your ranking in the tournament, it doesnt matter how good you are if you can get outgrinded eventually. They have taken some steps to mitigate that a bit but in the end someone who spends 8 hours of play will eventually have a better score then someone whos only able to play for 2 or 3 hours.

So in the end it doesnt boil down to whos the most skilled but who gets the most lucky with his or her teammates and if you actually have a live or not.

Now it's changed from "has 7 friends online" to "is lucky".




:edit:

The reality is, the competitive players did not choose to limit the options to 1-4 player queue or 8 player queue.

Not all competitive players have 7 people online every time they log in.

Edited by Jestun, 26 July 2013 - 09:47 AM.

[JingleHell]

Riptor, on 26 July 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

So in the end it doesnt boil down to whos the most skilled but who gets the most lucky with his or her teammates and if you actually have a live or not.

Ignoring all the reasonable points before this, I hate when people use this argument. If your reasons for doing worse than the other people are "having a life", you shouldn't actually care about doing worse. At least not in the tournaments. It shouldn't bother you at all, because you have those rewarding moments to look at, doing stuff with your significant other, friends, or family.

I don't play this game "competitively", but I certainly don't get offended by people who are better because they do. Now, if their personality is utter trash, yeah, they might personally **** me off, but that's different. I'm not conceptually offended by it.

[3rdworld]

Riptor, on 26 July 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

What a stunning comeback.. did you came up with that all by yourselfe?

"Competitive" players seek competition... then how come so many of you so called competitive players keep showing up sinc dropping in PuG matches and not using the 8 man drops where.. you know.. there are actually people who do look for this kind of competition?

There is an astonishing lack of team variety among the 8 man drops... wonder how that could be... but meanwhile theres no shortage of sinc droppers...

Nothing?Thought so.

Lets face it.. most of the "competitive" players in MWO do not look for competition.. they look for easy wins. You want comeptitive players? Go look at LoLs tournaments.. THAT is competitive play.

Not this pugs stomping that has been going on from the very beginning. Thats why i cant take anyone serious that is talking about their "skill" when it comes to MWO.

If MWO actually had Team tournaments then it would show who has the real skill and who hasnt and whos actually competitive and whos only out for an easy win.

No.. they are min/maxers.. not competitive players. Big difference. One uses the games numbers to give themselves the biggest advantage mathematically possible, and the other is actually out to test their skill at the game itselfe against an oponent, ideally of equal or better skill. Sure competitive players also min/max but then again they actually seek out players who do so. Min/maxers are just out for a quick win by all means possible.

Comp players have to grind Cbills and Mechs too you know?

It is faster to do that in 4s.

And I know it is a crazy thought. But sometimes, Comp players just wanna play for fun as well. I know it is hard to believe.

so again:

3rdworld, on 26 July 2013 - 06:53 AM, said:

You actually have no idea what you are talking about.

Grats.

[giganova]

I wonder when this topic will achieve Godwin's Rule? It's gotta be getting close...

[Riptor]

Yeah.. your arguments get weaker each time. Not really giving any counter arguments but only "sarcasticaly" repeating what i say.


So you say the tournaments up till now had nothing to do with luck and grind? Are you seriously trying to say that?

No the competitive players did not choose to limit teams that way, it was PGI in an attempt to give the PuGs and the competitive crowd bot sandboxes to play in.. but *gasp* what happened? The "competitive" players are all now playing in the PuG sandbox, using their teamplay to destroy everyones sandcastles and then telling the PuGs how to build better ones.

Maybe.. just maybe.. its because they dont like to play against other players who are just as good as them at building sandcastles?

I mean if you consider yourselfe a competitive player your goal should be to proof yourselfe against other awesome sandcastle builders and not against people who are just there to have "fun" their way.

I also like how youcompletly ignore that there are more people sinc dropping then in the actual 8 man que... the chances of meeting different 8 man groups in the pug que is higher then in the actual friggin 8 man que.

Also to the one above me who picked out my comment about no livers:

Tournaments should all be about skill... not how much time you can waste on a weekend for a computer game. Yes i respect it when someones better at a game then i am.. i do not however respect someone who won simply by grinding hours and then declaring hes better then me because i had something to do that day.

Edited by Riptor, 26 July 2013 - 09:57 AM.

[3rdworld]

Riptor, on 26 July 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

Yeah.. your arguments get weaker each time. Not really giving any counter arguments but only "sarcasticaly" repeating what i say.


So you say the tournaments up till now had nothing to do with luck and grind? Are you seriously trying to say that?

No the competitive players did not choose so, it was PGI in an attempt to give the PuGs and the competitive crowd bot sandboxes to play in.. but *gasp* what happened? The "competitive" players are all now playing in the PuG sandbox, using their teamplay to destroy everyones sandcastles and then telling the PuGs how to build better ones.

Maybe.. just maybe.. its because they dont like to play against other players who are just as good as them at building sandcastles?

I mean if you consider yourselfe a competitive player your goal should be to proof yourselfe against other awesome sandcastle builders and not against people who are just there to have "fun" their way.

I also like how youcompletly ignore that there are more people sinc dropping then in the actual 8 man que... the chances of meeting different 8 man groups in the pug que is higher then in the actual friggin 8 man que

I do. That is why I have participated in RHoD, Marik 1, and now Marik 2.

I don't know any comp team that sync drops 4s. You are actually complaining about trolls, not comp teams.

So ya, You still have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and produce way to much drivel for it to even approach a valid argument worth discussion.

That is why I am sarcastic and dismissive. It is all you deserve,

[Stoicblitzer]

Riptor, on 26 July 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

Yeah.. your arguments get weaker each time. Not really giving any counter arguments but only "sarcasticaly" repeating what i say.


So you say the tournaments up till now had nothing to do with luck and grind? Are you seriously trying to say that?

No the competitive players did not choose to limit teams that way, it was PGI in an attempt to give the PuGs and the competitive crowd bot sandboxes to play in.. but *gasp* what happened? The "competitive" players are all now playing in the PuG sandbox, using their teamplay to destroy everyones sandcastles and then telling the PuGs how to build better ones.

Maybe.. just maybe.. its because they dont like to play against other players who are just as good as them at building sandcastles?

I mean if you consider yourselfe a competitive player your goal should be to proof yourselfe against other awesome sandcastle builders and not against people who are just there to have "fun" their way.

I also like how youcompletly ignore that there are more people sinc dropping then in the actual 8 man que... the chances of meeting different 8 man groups in the pug que is higher then in the actual friggin 8 man que.

Also to the one above me who picked out my comment about no livers:

Tournaments should all be about skill... not how much time you can waste on a weekend for a computer game. Yes i respect it when someones better at a game then i am.. i do not however respect someone who won simply by grinding hours and then declaring hes better then me because i had something to do that day.

your whole argument is based on your opinion that sync dropping two 4mans is common. imo after 4000 matches, it's not common.

[Jonny Taco]

xDeityx, on 26 July 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:

No, they aren't. If 1 PPC was balanced then 4 would be. Just like Large Lasers.

/facepalm

Anyone else want to take this one? I'm getting a bit sick of explaining why this opinion is simply incorrect.

[Riptor]

3rdworld, on 26 July 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:

I do. That is why I have participated in RHoD, Marik 1, and now Marik 2.

I don't know any comp team that sync drops 4s. You are actually complaining about trolls, not comp teams.

So ya, You still have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and produce way to much drivel for it to even approach a valid argument worth discussion.

That is why I am sarcastic and dismissive. It is all you deserve,

3rdworld, on 26 July 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:

I do. That is why I have participated in RHoD, Marik 1, and now Marik 2.

I don't know any comp team that sync drops 4s. You are actually complaining about trolls, not comp teams.

So ya, You still have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and produce way to much drivel for it to even approach a valid argument worth discussion.

That is why I am sarcastic and dismissive. It is all you deserve,

And still the 8 man que is as barren as the tourmaline desert. Kinda weird isnt it? You would think comp teams would actually use the 8 man que to fight other comp teams.. yet here they are spending more time PuG stomping.

You can sugarcoat it asmuch as you want. But if calling yourselfe "competitive" without any actuall competition besides a certain circle of other teams... sure no problem.

Also these privatly held tournaments? Dont really tell that much.. so what, youre the best team out of a circle of chosen teams that knew about that tournament and or where even allowed to take part? Good for you. Im talking official tournaments here where actuall MC prizes ar at stake.

Once more i will refer to the LoL competitive crowd to show what real competitive players look like. Do they play random games? Sure they do, but they actually spend asmuch time training against other comp teams then they do games for fun.

In MWO? Forget about the 8 man que... no one uses that and the few that use it allways have to play against the same team till kingdom come because its the only team that showed up for 8 mans beside your own group.

So my point stands: IF there are so many competitive players... why are is the 8 man que such a snooze fest and why is sinc dropping so common?

Oh and sinc dropping is not common? IT sure as hell is more common then actually meeting 3 different teams in 10 8-man drops

Edited by Riptor, 26 July 2013 - 10:12 AM.

[Tetatae Squawkins]

Quote

why are is the 8 man que such a snooze fest and why is sinc dropping so common?

The answer to this is very simple. At a competitive level the game is not balanced. There is very little variety in gamepay. And more importantly it's not fun. At the end of the day even the most competitive players are still here for fun. If they can still squeeze a little fun out of this game by doing 4 mans or sync dropping.

They will.

It's not some conspiracy to screw the casual player. It's a result of design decisions.

[Vincent Quatermain]

Riptor, on 26 July 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

"Competitive" players seek competition... then how come so many of you so called competitive players keep showing up sinc dropping in PuG matches and not using the 8 man drops where.. you know.. there are actually people who do look for this kind of competition?

Because the meta is so stale that there is ONLY ONE KIND of match in 8P -- SniperWarriorOnline.

It's boring. Really, really, boring.

I drop in 4P queue all the time with people of widely varying skills. Why? Because then I can at least pretend there are other worthwhile mechs besides those carrying 2 ERPPC and a Gauss.

[Jonny Taco]

Sync dropping is exploiting the match maker to intentionally create an 8vpug which the current system is specifically designed around avoiding. While obviously there are issue with the current "Drop" mechanics that have lead to this abuse, you cannot sit there and mislabel an exploit as "squeezing a little fun out of the game"

The proper solution to sync dropping is to find those who are doing it (not very hard) and reset their player stats. Obviously this would be a punishment to those abusing the current matchmaking system but also it would be a way to bring some level of "fairness" to the current stat pool. There are many people who have drastically inflated their stats to a point they would never have been able to achieve via sync dropping. The only problem I see with this is that some players not happy with their current stats may intentionally sync drop in order to get caught and have their stats reset.