47 replies to this topic

[GODzillaGSPB]

So it is pretty much obvious that the majority of mechs in a team are currently assault mechs, followed by heavies. Sometimes there is one up to a few mediums or lights, but I've seen games without them, too.

"Will PGI do something about it?" I was wondering for the past week. And it just dawned on me that they have nothing to gain by doing so!


1.) If they force a certain class setup on the matches, they're practically going against the will of their players. Obviously most of the players WANT to play assault.

2.) Assaults are the most expensive mechs. The chance that players purchase MC when they'd normally have to grind for something between 10 and 20 million cbills is much higher in comparison to a medium or light mech.

3.) The technical implementation will be difficult and if successfull holds the risk of hurting the player numbers. How would players react when the game tells them there is no free slot for their assault? Will they rage and leave? Could happen.


Now while this is pretty much sarcastic as hell because I'm basically saying PGI will probably do NOTHING, there is at least a grasp of positiveness in the conclusion:

IT IS UP TO US!

If you want more variance in the matches and you have an medium or light mech, grab it and play. Just do it.

[Waking One]

I'm just thinking that the return of random skill level matchups and 1:1 class balancing might actually be an improvement to the horrible system we have now.

[Ralgas]

Waking One, on 24 July 2013 - 01:03 AM, said:

I'm just thinking that the return of random skill level matchups and 1:1 class balancing might actually be an improvement to the horrible system we have now.

Maybe, but any system like this, bv or tonnage restrictions is going to blow out queue times. PGI needs to get a lil less scared of having 5min or so as the average 1st

[Elizander]

Ralgas, on 24 July 2013 - 01:22 AM, said:

Maybe, but any system like this, bv or tonnage restrictions is going to blow out queue times. PGI needs to get a lil less scared of having 5min or so as the average 1st

5 minutes is fine in DOTA since I'm playing a 30 minute~ 1 hour game but 5 minutes wait time for a 5 minute match is just wrong.

They can add a tick box for those willing stating "Willing to wait longer for a more balanced match up?"

Edited by Elizander, 24 July 2013 - 01:29 AM.

[xRatas]

Not that hard to do. Make balanced lances fight other balanced lances. Stuff the extra assaults all in same game. So if you play assaults, you'll mostly see other assaults. Should be fine for everyone. Well exept those assault players, that want to stomp smaller mechs in every game. Those are a rare breed though...

[PEEFsmash]

Waking One, on 24 July 2013 - 01:03 AM, said:

I'm just thinking that the return of random skill level matchups and 1:1 class balancing might actually be an improvement to the horrible system we have now.

Sounds great, I'll be averaging 6 kills 800 damage in my Jenner beating up on steeringwheel-Elo bads every. single. game. There will literally be balance discussion threads about how a billion things are overpowered, but the fact is THEY GOT MATCHED AGAINST SOMEONE WHO WAS GOOD. That's what we need.

My point is, myself and other top players in this game average a 3:1 or 4:1 win rate when SOLO PUGGING with ELO ACTIVE. That is the influence of just one single top player getting matched against your typical "High-Elo" not-that-great group of players. With no Elo active, you will lose 90+ percent of the games that you happen to get matched up against a top player. You will lose 99% of games you are matched up against a top 4man. How fun will that be for you? It would be boring to tears for me to win 99% of my games instead of my Elo-Active 85%, but that will bring the masses to tears for a different reason.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 24 July 2013 - 01:31 AM.

[Magicbullet141]

When the weapons are finally balanced and the pheonix package comes you, we will see the Shadow Hawk lead Mediums back into the spotlight.

[PEEFsmash]

Magicbullet141, on 24 July 2013 - 01:30 AM, said:

When the weapons are finally balanced and the pheonix package comes you, we will see the Shadow Hawk lead Mediums back into the spotlight.

The Shadow Hawk won't lead jack sh*t anywhere. If anything, it would be the "when the weapons are finally balanced" part, not a single chassis. But even weapon balance can't stop mediums from being bad versions of Heavies, and Heavies from being bad versions of Assaults. Engines need to propel Mediums and lights much faster than they currently do, and Assaults much slower.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 24 July 2013 - 01:36 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

I don't know, if no one buys Assaults because the game is unfun, they can't make any money out of it, either.

But it points out a problem with M:WO - if all mechs classes and weights are supposed to be balanced, viable and necessary for a good game, then shouldn't they at least be equally expensive from an MC point of view? (You could rule that MC bought items cannot be sold for C-Bills to avoid people buying an XL Engine Atlas for MC, and then sell it for the C-Bills to get two Commandos. Or have that C-Bills sales price be fixed for MC bought items and just have a "Buy C-Bills for MC" exchange rate for people that actually use their MC to get more C-Bills.)

[jtyotJOTJIPAEFVJ]

Who says weight classes aren't balanced? Balance is not the problem, the problem is that everyone wants to be the biggest and meanest robot on the field, so they pick an assault. That has nothing to do with how efficient weight classes are. It's just kids wanting to appear cool and powerful. If people were willing to put some time and effort to learn to play the different classes instead of lumbering around in their Stalker or Highlander full of PPCs like idiots, we wouldn't have this problem. But I guess people these days are just too lazy to use their brains for some tactics. To prove that with skillful piloting all classes can work equally well, I shall post my stats below.


Furthermore, a Jenner can be just as expensive as an Atlas is, or at least pretty close. While the Atlas costs 13 millions to buy in the first place, it doesn't need much modification apart from DHS. The Jenner however needs an XL 300, DHS, Endo Steel and some guns to work properly. Final price for both will be in the 13-15 million range.

[Waking One]

PEEFsmash, on 24 July 2013 - 01:28 AM, said:

Sounds great, I'll be averaging 6 kills 800 damage in my Jenner beating up on steeringwheel-Elo bads every. single. game. There will literally be balance discussion threads about how a billion things are overpowered, but the fact is THEY GOT MATCHED AGAINST SOMEONE WHO WAS GOOD. That's what we need.

My point is, myself and other top players in this game average a 3:1 or 4:1 win rate when SOLO PUGGING with ELO ACTIVE. That is the influence of just one single top player getting matched against your typical "High-Elo" not-that-great group of players. With no Elo active, you will lose 90+ percent of the games that you happen to get matched up against a top player. You will lose 99% of games you are matched up against a top 4man. How fun will that be for you? It would be boring to tears for me to win 99% of my games instead of my Elo-Active 85%, but that will bring the masses to tears for a different reason.

Sure you do. Reading these forums, almost everybody is a top player it seems. *golfclap*

ELO hardly works, you already get wildly varied skill levels matched together for god knows what reason.

Piipu, on 24 July 2013 - 02:30 AM, said:

Who says weight classes aren't balanced? Balance is not the problem, the problem is that everyone wants to be the biggest and meanest robot on the field, so they pick an assault. That has nothing to do with how efficient weight classes are. It's just kids wanting to appear cool and powerful. If people were willing to put some time and effort to learn to play the different classes instead of lumbering around in their Stalker or Highlander full of PPCs like idiots, we wouldn't have this problem. But I guess people these days are just too lazy to use their brains for some tactics. To prove that with skillful piloting all classes can work equally well, I shall post my stats below.


Furthermore, a Jenner can be just as expensive as an Atlas is, or at least pretty close. While the Atlas costs 13 millions to buy in the first place, it doesn't need much modification apart from DHS. The Jenner however needs an XL 300, DHS, Endo Steel and some guns to work properly. Final price for both will be in the 13-15 million range.

You barely played any games in those mechs. Hard to take your point seriously. Smurf i assume, which would mean running against mostly complete newbies, or even better always in a 4man.

Edited by Waking One, 24 July 2013 - 03:25 AM.

[jtyotJOTJIPAEFVJ]

I don't have 600 matches played on a single variant because I don't use the same mech all the time. It's also irrelevant because ELO is weight class based, not variant based. I have 1600 matches played total so I can't say the account is fresh. Nice try, but you should get your facts straight before calling me a newbie.

[Acid Phase]

GODzillaGSPB, on 24 July 2013 - 12:57 AM, said:

How would players react when the game tells them there is no free slot for their assault? Will they rage and leave? Could happen.

OP, I'll tell you what did happen. Matchmaking imbalance drove away many players because there has been many drops of 4-6 assaults on one team that lead to roflstomps to the opposition. New players are exposed to this type of imbalance as well. And one thing is for sure, new players will not stick around if they have to fall victims to repeated roflstomps. How do these players react when the game tells them they have no fighting chance? Did they rage and leave? They sure did.

That is not how PGI should keep the playerbase in their game. So it benefits PGI to fix matchmaking and keep their playerbase satisfied enough to stay and buy into MWO. And I'm not talking about hand holding either. I'm not talking about having these players win every match. It's just as you might already know, these matches ending in 8-0, 8-1, 8-2 and ending in 3 to 5 minutes out of 15 minutes gets tedious and boring. I don't have fun rolling the opposition. I don't have fun being rolled. So MWO needs to be a game of fun and having these matches end in very close, down to the wire, grueling battles ending in 8-6 or 8-7. That I will agree ends in a gg.

Edited by Acid Phase, 24 July 2013 - 06:00 AM.

[Chrithu]

Elizander, on 24 July 2013 - 01:25 AM, said:

5 minutes is fine in DOTA since I'm playing a 30 minute~ 1 hour game but 5 minutes wait time for a 5 minute match is just wrong.

They can add a tick box for those willing stating "Willing to wait longer for a more balanced match up?"

Well this could be solved by finally upping Mech Armor Values in order to accomodate for the increased damage outputs since HSR has hit. Also upping internal and component HP as someone else in another thread suggested in order to have mechs running around a longer time with destroyed parts.

Edited by Jason Parker, 24 July 2013 - 04:32 AM.

[Waking One]

Piipu, on 24 July 2013 - 03:59 AM, said:

I don't have 600 matches played on a single variant because I don't use the same mech all the time. It's also irrelevant because ELO is weight class based, not variant based. I have 1600 matches played total so I can't say the account is fresh. Nice try, but you should get your facts straight before calling me a newbie.

It was your choice to show those games.

[Ph30nix]

people also dont seem to realize Assaults are not the be all end all mechs. They have weaknesses that are only offered by lighter mechs.

[Yankee77]

Keep in mind, there is class weight matching. It just gets relaxed if the queue time is too long. If it doesn't seem to work often (and quite frankly I think it matches quite frequently), the issue might be more a question of player preference (if most people play assaults, then obviously mediums get less proper matches).

Also, keep in mind the devs have repeatedly stated they will be implementing tonnage limits. I imagine that has at least to wait for UI 2.0 (for lobbies and the likes).

[Aym]

GODzillaGSPB, on 24 July 2013 - 12:57 AM, said:

So it is pretty much obvious that the majority of mechs in a team are currently assault mechs, followed by heavies. Sometimes there is one up to a few mediums or lights, but I've seen games without them, too.

"Will PGI do something about it?" I was wondering for the past week. And it just dawned on me that they have nothing to gain by doing so!


1.) If they force a certain class setup on the matches, they're practically going against the will of their players. Obviously most of the players WANT to play assault.

2.) Assaults are the most expensive mechs. The chance that players purchase MC when they'd normally have to grind for something between 10 and 20 million cbills is much higher in comparison to a medium or light mech.

3.) The technical implementation will be difficult and if successfull holds the risk of hurting the player numbers. How would players react when the game tells them there is no free slot for their assault? Will they rage and leave? Could happen.


Now while this is pretty much sarcastic as hell because I'm basically saying PGI will probably do NOTHING, there is at least a grasp of positiveness in the conclusion:

IT IS UP TO US!

If you want more variance in the matches and you have an medium or light mech, grab it and play. Just do it.

I forget the fancy term for how ridiculously false your argument is on it's face, but I'll lay it out for you in plain english.
Your claim that most players are in assaults because they really really want to be. That's simply not true, most mechs in the games are heavy and assault because there IS NO TONNAGE BASED MATCHMAKER! With the current balance in game, Medium mechs have no real advantage over lights or heavies, so no one takes them, so there's that too. Except people do continue to take medium mechs because they love them and don't mind playing with the disadvantage.
Lastly your claim that having a longer queue for Assault pilots would cause players to abanon the game is pretty bad. The most popular subscription game of all time had RIDICULOUS queues for DPS, we're talking 30+ minutes, while tanks and healers had near instant queues. Did it drop below 11 million subscribers when that was the case? No. Some people dealt with it by changing to those roles, others dealt with the queue time. But even that won't be nearly as bad here because I can tell you all 4 weight classes are fun to play in this game, and the queue will balance itself out nicely.

[Mechteric]

Of course they stand to gain, because if they don't correct the matchmaking then people will leave sooner rather than later. Leaving = less money.

[GODzillaGSPB]

Aym, on 24 July 2013 - 05:12 AM, said:

I forget the fancy term for how ridiculously false your argument is on it's face, but I'll lay it out for you in plain english.

Please be aware for future posts: When someone reads something like this he is really really looking forward to read on. Like not. At all. Leave it out, please. Because...

Aym, on 24 July 2013 - 05:12 AM, said:

Your claim that most players are in assaults because they really really want to be. That's simply not true, most mechs in the games are heavy and assault because there IS NO TONNAGE BASED MATCHMAKER! With the current balance in game, Medium mechs have no real advantage over lights or heavies, so no one takes them, so there's that too. Except people do continue to take medium mechs because they love them and don't mind playing with the disadvantage.
Lastly your claim that having a longer queue for Assault pilots would cause players to abanon the game is pretty bad. The most popular subscription game of all time had RIDICULOUS queues for DPS, we're talking 30+ minutes, while tanks and healers had near instant queues. Did it drop below 11 million subscribers when that was the case? No. Some people dealt with it by changing to those roles, others dealt with the queue time. But even that won't be nearly as bad here because I can tell you all 4 weight classes are fun to play in this game, and the queue will balance itself out nicely.

...your second part is actually much better. And just so you understand: I'm actually glad other people think otherwise. If there are logical counter-arguments to my admitedly very pessimistic ideas, that's really good news. Now let's hope this rings througgh to PGI. Because I actually WANT them to do something about it.

So yeah...I think you misinterpreted my intentions a bit. Do I want this game to stay like this? Hell no. I'm just a pessimist. ^^

CapperDeluxe, on 24 July 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:

Of course they stand to gain, because if they don't correct the matchmaking then people will leave sooner rather than later. Leaving = less money.

It's just...when my team is getting fracked by another assault avalanche I've never seen the opposing team taking to the chat, writing: "Ohhhh, that was soo bad, it felt so wrong to win this!!!"

Edited by GODzillaGSPB, 24 July 2013 - 05:49 AM.