37 replies to this topic

[HammerSwarm]

The LBX is a shotgun; it is a gun that fires shot as opposed to a slug. Accept that.

Good, we're past that.

Okay shotguns have changed over time but in the 1930's the Germans developed the definitive method of testing a shotgun. Basically it mapped the spread pattern of shotguns under different conditions at different ranges leading to great data that allowed them to make charts like these.

From those images you can see the effects of choke vs. an open bore, and the cigar shaped "Kill zone" created there in.

So what does that mean for us? We need to make the LBX have a maximum effective kill zone at the weapons maximum effective range and then trail off into the area where you can not rely on them.

There are factors you can use to determine the spread of projectiles. and where they spread to.

Choke: a physical insert into the barrel of a shotgun that narrows the opening to change the spread pattern. This shrinks the spread and offers us a longer narrower kill zone.

Velocity: speeding up a payload increases the range and stretches the cigar shape out: Our spread remains more intact over a greater distance as it covers more ground before spreading.

My favored answer is to increase projectile velocity, this would get shots on target quicker, making shooting things easier and lead distance shorter, and it would have the real world effect of shrinking the spread and wouldn't require any additional coding if your current code is based on physics instead of some work around.

That's the problem as I see it, I see a mech, and I tee them up but my spread seems to great to do any damage to a mech. I am fine with 10 damage spreading to an area like, torso, arms, legs. if I score the perfect center hit, and then doing only part damage if my accuracy suffers. At close range this weapon would be as deadly as an AC 10 as it would have a longer narrower cigar that more closely mimicked a slug.

The other problem with the LB10X is that it sucks as an idea.

What is a shotgun used for? hitting a target with a bullet that will kill or disable it, but because that target is moving too fast to accurately hit with a single small bullet.



A shell loaded with a 9 shot can kill a Quail, it's a small bird. A shell loaded with a full load of 000 can kill a deer, a much larger animal. A mech would presumably be damaged by something that is many inches in diameter. Do you follow?

But the normal bullets fired by an AC 10 don't kill a mech? even if I drop an AC 10 into your cockpit you keep walking. So there is no way that if I shoot an LB-10X into your cockpit it is going to do even less.

A shotgun shell takes more energy to kill a bird than a BB gun. I can kill a quail with a pellet gun if it sits still. It doesn't take much energy to shoot a single BB at a velocity that will kill a small bird. I can use a bunch of gunpowder, a much larger gun, and waste a whole lot more energy to put a crap ton of shot into the air hoping to move a large number of shots into the path of that same bird.

But if I shoot a deer with my pellet gun it might get pissed, and then if I shoot it with number 9 shot it will certainly be pissed. It might even be hurt a little bit but you can watch when animals attack to see if I can kill it in the length of time between when I shoot first and when it attacks me.

So is the shotgun anymore effective than the BB gun in that scenario? no. Now extrapolate that to a mech, I can melt the front armor on a dragon in probably 6 AC-10 shots. (6 x 10=60) would need to do in the aggregate 10 damage to be on par, that includes the projectiles that miss.

This is where the current LB-10X falls apart
It does 10 damage per shot, that's 1 damage each of the 10 pellets. To be of similar effectiveness I need to make the perfect shot before the shot spreads out. If the shot spreads out I am getting into that drastically under powered territory of shooting the deer with the number 9 shot again.

Solutions?
I really don't know. I mean it's a half finished weapon. It should fire slugs which go further because the gun is bigger and offers more powder for the slug, or cluster which are more limited in range but do more damage per pellet to do the same damage per shot figuring in some shots will miss.

The current gun does both but neither well at the moment and they have tried to make up for it by doing math in the form of crit seeking, but this pretty much nerfs it because no one likes being limited to dice roles in a game based on player skill.

To fix this you have to fix it.
Fix the LB-10X give it slug ammunition, and cluster ammunition, and include BOTH in the game. Make both behave as they would intuitively in real life. This would balance the AC-10 and the LB-10X, The AC would weigh less and have more ammo per ton the LB-10X would weight more have less ammo per ton, but have more versatility, and a greater range for slugs.

that is how it works

[General Taskeen]

No.

Its a Autocannon flak gun. Accept that. Both cluster and slugs have the same range. Accept that. The LB-X is not comparable to a hand-held shot gun. Accept that.

K?

Giving slug to LB-X is not a solution, as it simply supercedes an AC/10 in that case. I don't think you thought this out thouroughly by examining and testing previous LB-X guns in other Mech Warrior games.

So the solution needs a versatile and aggressive balance approach by the following:

- LB-X cluster type munitions needs to have the damage per pellet increased (Anywhere from 1.2 to 1.5 for testing) PLUS spread reduced to a point where all cluster pellets are hitting a target for its "effective range" (this would still have the affect of spreading out the pellets, and not pin-point except at close range)

But wait? Doesn't this make an LB-X gun more powerful than a regular AC? Yes, it does, and the balance solution is simple.

- Logically if the LB-X cluster round is doing more potential damage, then this equates to longer cool downs. AC's = Fast DPS, LB-X = Slow Fire, High Burst at Close/Long Range

- By examining other Mech Warrior we can see where better balance was achieved by making the LB-X calibers effective and competitive.

Edited by General Taskeen, 25 July 2013 - 07:34 AM.

[PanzerMagier]

Again, I'd love to see this implemented but I doubt PGI will let it be coded or possible even can code it in.

[SixBottles]

great post.

i completly agree with the first part of the post, u nailed the topic 2 times:

here:

Quote

The LBX is a shotgun; it is a gun that fires shot as opposed to a slug. Accept that.

and here:

Quote

I am fine with 10 damage spreading to an area like, torso, arms, legs. if I score the perfect center hit, and then doing only part damage if my accuracy suffers. At close range this weapon would be as deadly as an AC 10 as it would have a longer narrower cigar that more closely mimicked a slug.

also i like the idea of increasing the speed to tighten the spread

the problem today is, the LBX doesnt do enough damage. beside beeing smaller and being a ton lighter there are only major disadvantages campared to an AC10

if we up the pellet damage to somewhere to lets say 1,5... u would have the advantage of (theoreticly) beeing able to do 50% more damage than an AC10.

but u would have to be close...REALLY CLOSE...

also now u can hit fast moving targets with more power. instead of 5 pellets landing a hit on a light (5dmg) u will do (7,5)
this would still be less than an ac10 hit, but u have a greater chance of actually hit something

General Taskeen, on 25 July 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

No.

Its a Autocannon flak gun. Accept that. Both cluster and slugs have the same range. Accept that. The LB-X is not comparable to a hand-held shot gun. Accept that.

K?

NO, ITS NOT. it is an shotgun. dont believe me? go ingame, equip an LBX and fire away... does it still seem like a flak gun to you?

Edited by SixBottles, 25 July 2013 - 07:36 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

Well, real world experience doesn't always help when trying to balance MWO. However, there are many other games we can learn from. For example, there are a lot of space sims out there, where each ship has two kinds of 'health'. There's the shield and then there's the actual structural integrity of the ship. In these games, there are often three kinds of weapons. There's the laser (or equivalent) that first takes down the shield, then destroys the hull. There's the ion cannon (or equivalent) that only takes down the shield, doing little damage to the hull. And there's the mass driver (or equivalent) that does very little against a shield, but does great damage to the hull.

The same principle can be used in MWO. The only problem is that the weapons intended to be used against the internal structure of a mech are actually not much better at their primary function than other weapons, and they're often worse. In other words, they do so little extra damage that you're better off just using a normal weapon.

It doesn't have to be this way. They could change the values so that the MG and flamer are nearly useless against armor, but super effective against unarmored targets. Same for the LBX. They could even make certain weapons super effective against armour, but less effective against internal structure, which would give the game some much needed variety and perhaps stop the boating trend.

HammerSwarm, on 25 July 2013 - 07:11 AM, said:

A shell loaded with a 9 shot can kill a Quail, it's a small bird.

The LBX is useful for killing birds in this game too.

Spoiler

[James The Fox Dixon]

General Taskeen, on 25 July 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

No.

Its a Autocannon flak gun. Accept that. Both cluster and slugs have the same range. Accept that. The LB-X is not comparable to a hand-held shot gun. Accept that.

K?

Actually, the OP is correct that it is an AC shotgun. From Sarna, "Introduced in 2595 by the Terran Hegemony^[4]. The LB 10-X Autocannon is essentially a 'Mech-mounted shotgun, capable of firing special "cluster rounds" that split apart after being fired, allowing the weapon to either spread damage out or focus damage on a small area, depending on the range. LB-X Autocannons are able to use either the special cluster rounds or standard autocannon rounds. The LB 10-X Autocannon, having a higher caliber, causes higher damage than lower-caliber autocannons, though it is limited to medium ranges."

[Vassago Rain]

Actually, it's a high-tech (for 80s nerds, anyway) flak cannon, that has a lighter, extended range barrel, and can fire a variety of different projectiles over a long range.

You not only get the shotgun shell, but solid slugs, fin-stabilized sabot rounds, and really advanced detonater canisters that impact like a solid shot, but can be set to air-burst, or to not detonate at all.

So, basically, the LBX in this game is all wrong.

[Tezcatli]

Increased velocity is the only thing I would favor to change on the LBX. Since it's straight forward and simple.

The thing I question. Is it not possible to pack in more pellets? Would it have to be 10 pellets to equal the 10 damage of an AC10? Couldn't you pack more pellets then that?

If anything. Give it more pellets. Increase the scatter a bit. So that it if you're skilled enough to get a dead on shot. It does more damage then an AC10. And you still have to deal with the short range of the weapon, so it's not overly strong, except in short range where it should excel.

[Roland]

Quote

- LB-X cluster type munitions needs to have the damage per pellet increased (Anywhere from 1.2 to 1.5 for testing) PLUS spread reduced to a point where all cluster pellets are hitting a target for its "effective range" (this would still have the affect of spreading out the pellets, and not pin-point except at close range)


But wait? Doesn't this make an LB-X gun more powerful than a regular AC? Yes, it does, and the balance solution is simple.

1) This is definitely the solution. Infinitely better than any of the ridiculously complex nonsense ideas put forth by many folks.

2) The implication that it is more powerful than the AC is only true in specific situations. That's what makes this balanced. It's better up close, and worse at range.

[Josef Nader]

The cluster shot for the LB 10-X is, indeed, a shotgun-style weapon. However, like a shotgun, the LBX can take slugs that handle exactly like regular autocannon rounds. We need both for the LB10X to be worthwhile.

[Zyllos]

General Taskeen, on 25 July 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

No.

Its a Autocannon flak gun. Accept that. Both cluster and slugs have the same range. Accept that. The LB-X is not comparable to a hand-held shot gun. Accept that.

This is actually incorrect, also.

It's suppose to shoot a flak canister which explodes close to a target.

And this is a very simple way of doing it. Take the range finder code, which is next to your redicule, and calculate it on each update of the server. If it reads <=50m, explode, releasing the flak shot.

This will allow the LBX to utilize the full optimal range without making it better than the AC/10 at close range. It also allows PGI to balance the weapon by controlling the size of the average spray by increasing/decreasing the distance at which it explodes.

This will make it act exactly how it is suppose to be in canon.

James The Fox Dixon, on 25 July 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

Actually, the OP is correct that it is an AC shotgun. From Sarna, "Introduced in 2595 by the Terran Hegemony^[4]. The LB 10-X Autocannon is essentially a 'Mech-mounted shotgun, capable of firing special "cluster rounds" that split apart after being fired, allowing the weapon to either spread damage out or focus damage on a small area, depending on the range. LB-X Autocannons are able to use either the special cluster rounds or standard autocannon rounds. The LB 10-X Autocannon, having a higher caliber, causes higher damage than lower-caliber autocannons, though it is limited to medium ranges."

Sarna saying "mech-mounted shotgun" is a misnomer. They say that because it's easier to the average reader than saying a "mech-mounted flak cannon" as not many immediately know what a flak cannon is.

Edited by Zyllos, 25 July 2013 - 09:15 AM.

[Nehkrosis]

to whoever said that LB does not fire both types of Ammo type,YOUR WRONG!!!!

[color=#000000]Introduced in [/color]2595[color=#000000] by the [/color]Terran Hegemony^[4][color=#000000]. The [/color]LB 10-X Autocannon[color=#000000] is essentially a 'Mech-mounted shotgun, capable of firing special "cluster rounds" that split apart after being fired, allowing the weapon to either spread damage out or focus damage on a small area, depending on the range. LB-X Autocannons are able to use either the special cluster rounds or standard autocannon rounds. The LB 10-X Autocannon, having a higher caliber, causes higher damage than lower-caliber autocannons, though it is limited to medium ranges.[/color]

Sarna, you mother.

lol, i didnt even bother to read the entire thread, i just saw the 2nd post and went straight to Sarna!

[James The Fox Dixon]

Zyllos, on 25 July 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

Sarna saying "mech-mounted shotgun" is a misnomer. They say that because it's easier to the average reader than saying a "mech-mounted flak cannon" as not many immediately know what a flak cannon is.

Sorry, but the Battletech Tech Manual says basically the same thing. The LB-10X is designed for anti-vehicle and anti-infantry work not for taking out air targets.

[Zyllos]

James The Fox Dixon, on 25 July 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

Sorry, but the Battletech Tech Manual says basically the same thing. The LB-10X is designed for anti-vehicle and anti-infantry work not for taking out air targets.

"Flak" is not regulated to AA only. Flak just means submunitions.

[HammerSwarm]

General Taskeen, on 25 July 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

No.

Its a Auto cannon flak gun. Accept that. Both cluster and slugs have the same range. Accept that. The LB-X is not comparable to a hand-held shot gun. Accept that.

K?

Giving slug to LB-X is not a solution, as it simply supercedes an AC/10 in that case. I don't think you thought this out thouroughly by examining and testing previous LB-X guns in other Mech Warrior games.

So the solution needs a versatile and aggressive balance approach by the following:

- LB-X cluster type munitions needs to have the damage per pellet increased (Anywhere from 1.2 to 1.5 for testing) PLUS spread reduced to a point where all cluster pellets are hitting a target for its "effective range" (this would still have the affect of spreading out the pellets, and not pin-point except at close range)

But wait? Doesn't this make an LB-X gun more powerful than a regular AC? Yes, it does, and the balance solution is simple.

- Logically if the LB-X cluster round is doing more potential damage, then this equates to longer cool downs. AC's = Fast DPS, LB-X = Slow Fire, High Burst at Close/Long Range

- By examining other Mech Warrior we can see where better balance was achieved by making the LB-X calibers effective and competitive.

Wow, okay, Quoting sarna here, "The LB-X's flak-like 'shotgun' effect" I think we can split the difference So your solution and please correct me if I am wrong is to have the LB-10X to shoot slower? like a third tier of auto cannon? Ultra AC, Normal AC and LB-10X AC? where as now the UAC fires faster and does more damage with the draw back of jamming and the LB10X fires slower with the drawback of spread fire? But the LBX has a longer range?

You blasted me on not knowing how it works while ignoring that the LB-10X is indeed a superior weapon but that it comes at the cost of increased weight and space? It is bigger why not also better? Your solution also does nothing to address the spread, nor does it do much of anything other than increasing pellet damage and nerfing fire rate.

Logically you would also factor building materials and technology into reloading times and cool downs. LB-X are a more advanced technology using more advanced materials allowing for greater heat dissipation and better constructions. Look into it, the heat for an AC-10 is 3, but for an LB-10X is 2.

Thanks for crapping on my thread in a thread crapping way though. I'll try to take you passion as a sign that this is a real issue for the player base.

[Voivode]

I use both the AC10 and LB10X. AC10 paired with longer range weapons if I'm fighting at range, LB10X with brawling weapons if I'm fighting at short range. The crits are nice for brawling, if you get in close you really do tear weapons and limbs from mechs. They are different weapons for different situations. An LB10X is the wrong choice if you aren't going to get as close to the enemy as fast as you can.

[MeiSooHaityu]

The tricky thing about making the LBX put out more damage to make up for the fragmenting effect is that it outputs more damage than a Standard A/C10 and is a heck of a light lighter to boot. That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me.

Also, tightening the spread too much also makes it like a standard A/C10 at much of it's range and still is lighter.

You can see the theme here. I suppose you could make the two above changes, but if PGI did, they would have to balance the gun out by making it as heavy or heavier than the standard A/C10 to off set the advantages. I actually like the LBX between the tonnage of an A/C10 and an A/C5.

If they did make it more powerful, and came the same weight, the only other thing they could reduce is cycle time, but I don't think I would want that either.

Maybe they could reduce the cycle time to help make the LBX more appealing (and slightly more ammo per ton). Leave things like spread and damage alone. Really a LBX shouldn't do more damage than 10pts and the spread gives the gun it's characteristic. A faster cycle rate though might be just a small enough change to make it more viable for most people. Just don't make the thing like an auto shotgun LOL.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 25 July 2013 - 09:58 AM.

[Jman5]

Everyone always underestimates critical hits.

[Roland]

Jman5, on 25 July 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

Everyone always underestimates critical hits.

Currently, critical hits do essentially nothing, so it's impossible to underestimate them.

[Belorion]

I think one of the ammo types that the LBX is supposed to be able to fire is normal AC ammo. That would go a long way toward balancing it.

Roland, on 25 July 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:

Currently, critical hits do essentially nothing, so it's impossible to underestimate them.

Crits knock out weapons, and cause ammo to blow up.