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Pro Training Wheels: Abusing Arm Lock


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#41 kuangmk11

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 07:24 PM

I was one of those that said I would NEVER use it. I use it almost all the time. The times I don't use it are few; When I am tracking a circling light, When I need to fire above or below max torso pitch, When I have only lrms in my torsos. Arm Lock forces exact convergence and convergence is king. If you don't use it you are not maximizing your damage output to a single location. It is an obvious advantage.

As far as the "instant snapping" is concerned, who cares. This game is not that much of a twitch shooter and aiming in it is easy. Thankfully one shots are rare and difficult.

#42 Shifty Eyes

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 10:01 PM

I'm still not convinced the "instant snapping" is actually a thing. I messed around with it a ton after reading this thread. The only snapping that is happening is the camera, which is far ahead of both the torso and arms when you turn quickly without arm lock on. I can't see how that can be abused.

EDIT:
Also I'd consider free arm movement to be the feature, not the other way around. Independent arm movement allows you to track faster and fire at wider angles with arm-mounted weapons. Most mechwarrior games only allow arm-lock, so talking about abusing arm-lock just doesn't make sense to me.

Edited by Shifty Eyes, 15 August 2013 - 10:05 PM.


#43 Philadelphia Collins

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 10:15 PM

I remapped arm lock key to "f" so that I can press it with my index finger and still control my mech using asdw with my pinky on "a"

#44 Fire and Salt

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 08:03 AM

View PostFire and Salt, on 26 July 2013 - 05:49 PM, said:


It seems to me that the arms rush over to the torso, not the other way around.

Furthermore, having just tested it, it appears that the arms DO in fact move at a speed that they are capable of normally - they do not move "instantly" in any way. They appear to obey the maximum arm velocity normally achievable with the arms when moving them separately. They also "decelerate" near the center rather than instantly changing from max angular velocity to 0 angular velocity.




View PostVictor Morson, on 14 August 2013 - 11:38 PM, said:


Go. Try. It.

Literally nobody is arguing this is how they work.






Wut?










Also, removing arm lock won't do anything to counter pin point damage and make the game more diverse.

With the heat penalty, 2ppc and 1 gauss is the premier pinpoint load out.

So by removing arm lock you prevent me from using the CTF-3D.

... Whatever - I can still have my pinpoint fun by using a firebrand or victor, which can do the same exact build but with all weapons in the arms, hence no arm lock needed.

...let's reduce mech diversity by making players only use mech whose hard points aren't spread across arms/torso... Lol

Edited by Fire and Salt, 16 August 2013 - 08:07 AM.


#45 Fire and Salt

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 08:15 AM

View PostKoniving, on 15 August 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:


1 reason not to when stationary? None.

1 reason not to when moving in any way? Here we go, watch these arms.



LOL are you talking about the walking animation?

Arms shouldn't be able to follow the torsos + reticle?
Yea well by that logic they shouldn't be able to follow the arms o reticle either...


So you want cone of fire for all weapons while moving? Or you just want me to use a victor instead of a ctf-3d?

#46 Koniving

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 10:06 AM

View PostFire and Salt, on 16 August 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:


The walking animation is very similar on all the mechs, the arms bounce with every step. What I want is a head bob to reflect the fact that the mech is moving.

On the Atlas.

There's no way you'd get pinpoint on a specific area while moving.

Then you can armlock all you please, because your aim moves with the entire body of the mech and not some magical gliding crosshair.


You still get your pinpoint. But it's fired where the crosshairs are which are moving because you are. Keeps it skill based, as you can decide to fire when on target. No stationary crosshairs that never move even as you're going 300 kph. Cone of accuracies are never skill based. However a moving crosshair is that stays at the middle of the screen and tracks your character's head as you move around in the mech is skill-based, even if your head bobs as it would in any car, in any boat, in any helicopter or jet or even a battlemech.

That, and next time you have armlock turned off, use Left CTRL, aim as far left or right as you can. Press shift. It's instant. As in Less than 0.025 seconds.

Can you move your arm and calibrate your aim that fast? Not even the sharp shooters in the movies can.

Edited by Koniving, 16 August 2013 - 11:09 AM.


#47 Victor Morson

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 02:09 PM

Those are some really cool videos man. I never even really thought about how much better things would be if the camera was allowed some movement along with the cockpit, really. But yeah, I think it's a great idea and I'd love to see that one day.

#48 Shifty Eyes

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 02:22 PM

I do like the idea of camera bounce as you move. That way you'll have to choose between accuracy and speed, making yourself the most vulnerable when you are precision sniping.

#49 Koniving

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 02:49 PM

The idea came from a mechwarrior 4 intro video. Which, compare that with any other 'live action', and any mech videos depicting them after mechwarrior 2. They are some rocky and very unsteady rides. Even in MWO we can see they bounce all over the place both by watching others and by watching the cockpit move. Meanwhile we just magically glide as if we're hovering ghosts inside of it, completely un-phased by anything.

So that kind of got to me, and left me wondering.. "Why didn't they just throw it in?" I mean seriously. Even Crysis has a headbob. Granted you can turn it on and off, but it's there, and it'd affect your aim without giving you a cone of accuracy.

#50 Fire and Salt

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 03:37 PM

View PostKoniving, on 16 August 2013 - 10:06 AM, said:

Can you move your arm and calibrate your aim that fast? Not even the sharp shooters in the movies can.



The MECH can move its arms that fast, and since it presumably has a decent CPU it knows where the torso weapons are facing.

#51 Fire and Salt

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 03:45 PM

Also, it WOULD be awesome if the reticle bounced around when you ran and jumped, yet the weapons still went exactly where you pointed....


I wish the JJ reticle was accurate and bounced, but apparently the devs prefer random cone of fire...

And even if the reticle isnt going to be accurate itself, why the hell cant i aim my weapons via the assist of a tag mounted in the same arm when jump jetting? The two are swaying in the arm together... yet the lasers randomly fire off in a different direction...?


So.... are you asking for 2 separate circles, one for each arm? How will you tell which is which? Surely the arms won't both be facing the EXACT same direction as each other....



I would think that is sweet. I always wished the AC20 highlanders and Victors had 2 separate arm reticles instead of a Half-Way Limited movement compromise. Also, I want a 2nd layer of arm lock for said mechs that disables the side to side movement of the arm with the lower arm actuator.... But if i had the game the way I wanted it would be so complicated PGI wouldnt make any money...

#52 TB Azrael

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 04:34 PM

View PostFire and Salt, on 26 July 2013 - 05:57 AM, said:

I disagree with the word 'abusing'

Give me 1 logical reason where my super high tech walking robot cannot be made to point its arms in the same direction as its torso.

Because doing it this way completely takes the torso rotation speed out of the equation, and is therefore really an exploit. That a good enough one for you?

#53 Ertur

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 11:59 PM

As a Jenner pilot I am wondering just what in the world are you people nattering about.

#54 Victor Morson

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 06:04 AM

View PostErtur, on 17 August 2013 - 11:59 PM, said:

As a Jenner pilot I am wondering just what in the world are you people nattering about.


You know how sometimes you're running along, and a Cataphract pops over a hill for a tenth of a second, and then you don't have a leg anymore?

Compliments of Arm Lock.

#55 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 06:27 AM

View PostDarwins Dog, on 26 July 2013 - 01:23 PM, said:

I didn't realize it was giving instant convergence. That does not seem right at all. If anything it should bring your arms to your torso reticule (and at the same speed they normally move).

As I understand it:
1) Weapon Convergence is pretty much instant. Only lag or HSR issues cause weapons not to coverge - and leading weapons, of course, though technically, they converge, just not on the spot you were actually intending to hit.
2) Arm and Torso reticule do not converge instantly, but slowly, except arm lock instantly moves your torso crosshair to your arm crosshair - faster than it would normally do.

I don't know if it's an exploit, abuse, or whatever. I think it's a bit of a questionable design -why have differently fast moving reticules at all if a button press is all it takes to negate it?

#56 Koniving

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 07:01 AM

View PostFire and Salt, on 16 August 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

Also, it WOULD be awesome if the reticle bounced around when you ran and jumped, yet the weapons still went exactly where you pointed....


I wish the JJ reticle was accurate and bounced, but apparently the devs prefer random cone of fire...

And even if the reticle isnt going to be accurate itself, why the hell cant i aim my weapons via the assist of a tag mounted in the same arm when jump jetting? The two are swaying in the arm together... yet the lasers randomly fire off in a different direction...?


So.... are you asking for 2 separate circles, one for each arm? How will you tell which is which? Surely the arms won't both be facing the EXACT same direction as each other....



I would think that is sweet. I always wished the AC20 highlanders and Victors had 2 separate arm reticles instead of a Half-Way Limited movement compromise. Also, I want a 2nd layer of arm lock for said mechs that disables the side to side movement of the arm with the lower arm actuator.... But if i had the game the way I wanted it would be so complicated PGI wouldnt make any money...


The separate arm crosshairs would be a great thing, but controlling them would be rather difficult. Especially when it comes to mechs with abilities that depend on them like the Crab and King Crab -- who can fire one arm 90 degrees left, and the other 90 degrees right, and do it at the same time to make up for their lack of torso twist.

It would be ideal to have them, too, as you can then lock the arms with no lower arm actuators to something in the middle or off to the left / right. Jagers would then become support mechs instead of brawlers. But that's asking a bit much.

(You're right. For example on Cataphracts the arms never line up. Ever. When you're close to them they spread out like a "V" going outward).

Though honestly the same concept could be done with just one crosshair for the arms.

Also I could believe the arms can travel there at 0.5 seconds, maybe even 0.25 seconds though that's a bit of a stretch. But they move faster than that and align pinpoint with instant convergence. In closed beta it used to take between 0.5 seconds and 1 for your weapons to adjust for a range.

So for me it's just a tad bit much. But it used to be worse. So much worse when armlock first came out. You could for example be torso twisted 90 degrees left. Without lower arms mind you. And turn your head right which turns faster than your torso can, and hit "Armlock." Boom. Pinpoint instant torso twist without having to wait for the torso to twist, as it'd literally "teleport" and snap to lock where your eyes point. Back when people frequently claimed aimbot? That's what really happened. They'd "snap" their torso onto a target by pressing shift. But again that exploit is fixed.

Edited by Koniving, 18 August 2013 - 07:13 AM.


#57 Shifty Eyes

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 08:36 AM

View PostTB Azrael, on 17 August 2013 - 04:34 PM, said:

Because doing it this way completely takes the torso rotation speed out of the equation, and is therefore really an exploit. That a good enough one for you?


Seriously, I honestly don't get it. When you're arm-locked, aren't you limited by your torso twist speed?

And I am really not noticing anything strange when I arm-lock with my arms aimed way off to the side. The "instant snap" seems to be the camera snapping to the torso. The arms also seem to insta-snap, but the arms move very fast anyway, and the "snap" doesn't seem to be faster than centering the arms manually (albeit much more accurate).

Guys, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just confused about this whole thread. I've done a lot of arm-lock snap tests after reading this thread, and I'm just not seeing the same thing that some of you guys are.

#58 Fire and Salt

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 09:57 AM

View PostTB Azrael, on 17 August 2013 - 04:34 PM, said:

Because doing it this way completely takes the torso rotation speed out of the equation, and is therefore really an exploit. That a good enough one for you?




Except that it doesn't.... because the arms snap to the torso at their normal max speed...


(Unless you are getting some bug that I'm not.)

#59 Harkonis

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 01:15 PM

I do wish the head bob was there, that would go a long way to balancing speed vs accuracy. Keep in mind that the gyroscopic aiming should probably keep the reticle dead center on whatever you are aiming at though, and aim shouldn't bounce, just view.

#60 Nick Makiaveli

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 02:46 PM

Thanks for the headsup. Several times lately I have had problems aiming high or low enough on some of these new maps. This will definitely come in handy!!





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