22 replies to this topic

[Hythos]

Yes, I'm referring to Targeting Computers.

We know that these will allow direct-fire weapons to strike a desired (the head is not intended to be a desirable spot) location.

This means, that an attacker with any number, of any kind of direct-fire weapon - when linked into a Targeting Computer, will hit the location the pilot has designated. LASERs, PPC's, Gauss Rifles, AutoCannon, all to a specified location without damage-spread.

No limitation on Alpha-heat, "Max Damage per Location per Duration", or "Boating" will affect this.
I shouldn't have to go on about what weapons can be fired, how often, or what happens, because it's more aggressive than we had before.

This is intended as a core, Canon element. Anyone that's not wanting Alpha-strikes, Boating, or continued pin-point damage, should look for another game, or L2P and stop trying to ruin MWO!

[Homeless Bill]

Yeah. Lore is a great reason to pass up balance. You win.

[Trauglodyte]

Hythos, on 25 July 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

Yes, I'm referring to Targeting Computers.

We know that these will allow direct-fire weapons to strike a desired (the head is not intended to be a desirable spot) location.

This means, that an attacker with any number, of any kind of direct-fire weapon - when linked into a Targeting Computer, will hit the location the pilot has designated. LASERs, PPC's, Gauss Rifles, AutoCannon, all to a specified location without damage-spread.

No limitation on Alpha-heat, "Max Damage per Location per Duration", or "Boating" will affect this.
I shouldn't have to go on about what weapons can be fired, how often, or what happens, because it's more aggressive than we had before.

This is intended as a core, Canon element. Anyone that's not wanting Alpha-strikes, Boating, or continued pin-point damage, should look for another game, or L2P and stop trying to ruin MWO!

I want you to hop in your car, drive 100+ KPH, and point a rifle out the window and shoot another driver (also going 100+ kph) in the head with said rifle. Let me know how that works out for you.

[Unbound Inferno]

http://www.sarna.net...geting_Computer

The Targeting Computer was introduced by Clan Mongoose in 2860.[1] Targeting Computers are sophisticated pieces of electronics that, unlike normal targeting systems, physically help MechWarriors target their opponents. Recoil compensators and gyroscopic stabilizers are used to prevent normal weapon drift from factors such as recoil and movement while the computer accounts for atmospheric and other conditions to present an accurate "lead" on the target. This allows for more surgical precision of weapons fire, especially with naturally accurate systems, allowing for the user to hit specific parts on the target vehicle.

The Inner Sphere finally caught up to Clan technology with the Federated Suns' development of their own targeting computer in 3062.

We seem to be a bit ahead of the times.

Also, the targeting computer takes up 1 crit and 1 ton per 4 tons of Direct-Fire weapons for the IS.

We seem to be missing a bit of hardware too.

Edited by Unbound Inferno, 25 July 2013 - 04:47 PM.

[One Medic Army]

Hythos, on 25 July 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

Yes, I'm referring to Targeting Computers.

We know that these will allow direct-fire weapons to strike a desired (the head is not intended to be a desirable spot) location.

This means, that an attacker with any number, of any kind of direct-fire weapon - when linked into a Targeting Computer, will hit the location the pilot has designated. LASERs, PPC's, Gauss Rifles, AutoCannon, all to a specified location without damage-spread.

No limitation on Alpha-heat, "Max Damage per Location per Duration", or "Boating" will affect this.
I shouldn't have to go on about what weapons can be fired, how often, or what happens, because it's more aggressive than we had before.

This is intended as a core, Canon element. Anyone that's not wanting Alpha-strikes, Boating, or continued pin-point damage, should look for another game, or L2P and stop trying to ruin MWO!

As I recall targeting computers have a chance to miss the section and hit the mech, and a chance to miss the mech entirely.
They also cost tonnage and crits.

What we have, right now, are free targeting computers attached to every single weapon on every single mech.

[Zyllos]

You forget that even with a Targeting Computer, your odds of missing are high.

You also forget that a Targeting Computer takes up 1 critical slot and 1 ton per 4 tons of weapons it's tied to. That means to get 3 PPCs to aim, you have to spend 6 tons and 6 critical slots.

I would actually be fine with a system where Targeting Computers will always 100% fire with pin point accuracy, but only those weapons which are tied to the system. But this comes at the cost of 1 critical slot and 1 ton per 4 tons of weapons.

Edited by Zyllos, 25 July 2013 - 04:50 PM.

[Hythos]

Zyllos, on 25 July 2013 - 04:48 PM, said:

You forget that even with a Targeting Computer, your odds of missing are high.

You also forget that a Targeting Computer takes up 1 critical slot and 1 ton per 4 tons of weapons it's tied to. That means to get 3 PPCs to aim, you have to spend 6 tons and 6 critical slots.

I would actually be fine with a system where Targeting Computers will always 100% fire with pin point accuracy, but only those weapons which are tied to the system. But this comes at the cost of 1 critical slot and 1 ton per 4 tons of weapons.

Nope, I certainly don't forget it requires tonnage and crits - I just didn't need to mention it, as it's known. I also wouldn't say the hit-chance is high, just elevated - and if you don't lock, it doesn't have to fire - just like Streaks. As for Pulse-LASERs reducing said hit-penalty - reference the most recent "nerf" to Large Pulse LASERs, and this may give an indication why.

[Zyllos]

Hythos, on 25 July 2013 - 04:55 PM, said:

Nope, I certainly don't forget it requires tonnage and crits - I just didn't need to mention it, as it's known. I also wouldn't say the hit-chance is high, just elevated - and if you don't lock, it doesn't have to fire - just like Streaks. As for Pulse-LASERs reducing said hit-penalty - reference the most recent "nerf" to Large Pulse LASERs, and this may give an indication why.

Well, on a 2d6, adding a +3 To Hit is pretty large. That goes 58.3% to 16.7%.

[Mystere]

Trauglodyte, on 25 July 2013 - 04:46 PM, said:

I want you to hop in your car, drive 100+ KPH, and point a rifle out the window and shoot another driver (also going 100+ kph) in the head with said rifle. Let me know how that works out for you.

Are we allowed to mount a Barrett M-82A1 on a motorized platform equipped with a high-resolution/high-speed camera attached to a laptop loaded with targeting software?

Edited by Mystere, 25 July 2013 - 05:17 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Hythos, on 25 July 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

Yes, I'm referring to Targeting Computers.

We know that these will allow direct-fire weapons to strike a desired (the head is not intended to be a desirable spot) location.

This means, that an attacker with any number, of any kind of direct-fire weapon - when linked into a Targeting Computer, will hit the location the pilot has designated. LASERs, PPC's, Gauss Rifles, AutoCannon, all to a specified location without damage-spread.

No limitation on Alpha-heat, "Max Damage per Location per Duration", or "Boating" will affect this.
I shouldn't have to go on about what weapons can be fired, how often, or what happens, because it's more aggressive than we had before.

This is intended as a core, Canon element. Anyone that's not wanting Alpha-strikes, Boating, or continued pin-point damage, should look for another game, or L2P and stop trying to ruin MWO!

Homeless Bill, on 25 July 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

Yeah. Lore is a great reason to pass up balance. You win.

Not lore Game Mechanics. A Dire Wolf with 5 Large Pulse lasers could call a CT with only a +2 to hit penalty. Then ad in the advanced rule for Weapon Specialization and that +2 became a mere +1.

@Hythos, We can already see what Targeting Computers can do with how Convergence is working right now. I would actually say that IF TCs work as we have been seeing convergence go, "Working as Intended" is an apt response.

[Hammish]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 July 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

Not lore Game Mechanics. A Dire Wolf with 5 Large Pulse lasers could call a CT with only a +2 to hit penalty. Then ad in the advanced rule for Weapon Specialization and that +2 became a mere +1.

@Hythos, We can already see what Targeting Computers can do with how Convergence is working right now. I would actually say that IF TCs work as we have been seeing convergence go, "Working as Intended" is an apt response.

Actually, you're thinking the optional for Gunnery: Laser. That gives a -1. LPL Specialization would actually be -2. Of course, that's assuming that your pilot rates LPL Spec. Without it, at long range, you'd still be looking at 4 (average pilot) + 4 (long range) + whatever the target moved + whatever you moved + 2. So you're still looking at at least 10 on 2d6 plus movement. Still long odds, chief.

[Acid Phase]

Trauglodyte, on 25 July 2013 - 04:46 PM, said:

I want you to hop in your car, drive 100+ KPH, and point a rifle out the window and shoot another driver (also going 100+ kph) in the head with said rifle. Let me know how that works out for you.

Good God man. Tell him you're kidding. I'm sure you wanted to make a point. Anything but this. For f*cks sake.

[Joseph Mallan]

Hammish, on 26 July 2013 - 05:22 AM, said:

Actually, you're thinking the optional for Gunnery: Laser. That gives a -1. LPL Specialization would actually be -2. Of course, that's assuming that your pilot rates LPL Spec. Without it, at long range, you'd still be looking at 4 (average pilot) + 4 (long range) + whatever the target moved + whatever you moved + 2. So you're still looking at at least 10 on 2d6 plus movement. Still long odds, chief.

Gunnery: Laser Is a MechWarrior (RPG not VG) spec All gunnery for BattleTech is the same base number.
Of course I left out Range modes. We all know about those, and they are not really tied to the TComputer penalty.
Long Odds Depending on your Gunner Skill, Buddy. 2 Gunner Long range +4 Called shot +4(10+) Pulse Laser Spec-2 (8+) Then move modes... Not long odds at all unless you are trying to pop something moving over 5-8 hexs a +2 movement mode(10+). However who would call a shot at those odds? You wait till they are in Medium +2(4+) Call the shot +2 (6+) and have 3-4 hexs of movement +1(7+). That's about even odds.

Someone in MWO is capable of achieving that kind of called shot right now as if it was two Mechs standing still at short range without a clan Targeting Computer At long range in a snow storm.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 26 July 2013 - 05:47 AM.

[Xanquil]

There is also the fact that you have to roll for each weapon fired,(like using chain fire) and not just once for all weapons.(like current alpha strike) I wouldn't have an issue with pinpoint weapons with a TC, alpha strike need to be harder to hit with all the weapons though. An alpha strike was always intended to be a "panic button" type of attack, and not a "lets add all our damage together and assign it to one location" attack. And that is the issue we currently have with alpha strikes, one click of the mouse (roll to hit) and everything hits where your crosshairs are at.

[Joseph Mallan]

I agree with you Xan. But for 30 years, I have been building Mechs that can fire 90%+ of their weapons on TT and in Video game. I am of the mind if you can't fire everything you got in range, you built it wrong. So my Warhammers had at least 21 sinks and I can alpha my PPCs and walked all game! Using 3050 tech 17 Doubles Allowed me to fire everything and walk!

[Marmon Rzohr]

While I agree that mechs are sophisticated things and even the basic targeting equipment on them i cool stuff, there is another angle here...
The TT game compensates for variables like recoil, air resistance, imperfect compensation by the mech's targeting systems etc by using dice.

In MWO there are no dice. Just hand-eye coordination. So my humble opinion on how to balace this out is to add recoil etc to weapons. This way we balance boating and alphas with realism instead of contrived penalties that just end up making some weapons bad and others OP.

Why keep adding heat too PPCs to the point they become inefficent ? They're supposed to kick ***.
Add recoil. Add scattering.
It would be hard to make a case for a situation in which discarging 5,6 weapons at the same time has litterally no effect.
The way poptarts were nerfed was briliant. Simple realism.

More of that i say

[Trauglodyte]

Mystere, on 25 July 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

Are we allowed to mount a Barrett M-82A1 on a motorized platform equipped with a high-resolution/high-speed camera attached to a laptop loaded with targeting software?

You can but it has to be mounted on a dune buggy with no stabalization protocols and running at said speed in Baha, California

Acid, the point was that he's wanting to say everything is fine cause of targetting comps when 1) we don't have them yet (still down the line), 2) they don't make all shots guaranteed, and 3) pin poin accuracy by way of aiming was represented in TT by way of a called shot which incurred a -8 dice penalty (iirc).

Joseph Mallan, on 26 July 2013 - 06:04 AM, said:

I agree with you Xan. But for 30 years, I have been building Mechs that can fire 90%+ of their weapons on TT and in Video game. I am of the mind if you can't fire everything you got in range, you built it wrong. So my Warhammers had at least 21 sinks and I can alpha my PPCs and walked all game! Using 3050 tech 17 Doubles Allowed me to fire everything and walk!

It allowed you to do what?

[Taemien]

Have none of you played MechWarrior 3? Targeting Computers gave this functionality:



The yellow circle is the Targeting Computer targeting the arm. In addition the circle moves in relation to how fast the target is moving, ensuring that if you aim and fire in the circle, it leads the shot for you to hit the intended location. ECM also affected the circle by making it fuzzy and jumping around, this was a mechanic inherent to MW3.

So saying our pinpoint targeting in MWO is decades ahead of its time is ridiculous. MW3 had a targeting computer and pin point accuracy (even more so than MWO). But the Targeting Computer would tell you how to lead PPCs and the like.

[GingerBang]

if i'm not mistaken, didn't PPC's also mess up your HUD?

[Marmon Rzohr]

The MW3 comparison stands. But MW:O has been designed as a PvP game from the get-go,
Because competition is the word of the day, the game has to be balanced to keep it fun and alive.

Given these unique concerns previous MW games are not a good frame of reference.

The best example of this is boating. It's easy to adjust mouse sensitivity a bit and practice enough so you rarely miss. It's often hard to miss, Why ? Because you just point and click. Once the crosshair is at the enemy mech (barring fast movement or extreme range) you're gonna hit it.

Essentially this makes MWO Call of Duty if the guns had no recoil and the players a bit more health. Everybody's running around with sniper rifles because if you rarely miss you want the most powerful shot. That's why everything's littered with high alpha sniper mechs.

And that's not balance. It's not realism. It's not fun.

So yeah, targeting computers ftw and all, but for the targeting computer to have a point it has to be hard to hit something first.

Edited by Marmon Rzohr, 26 July 2013 - 10:25 AM.