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New Module Category: Armor


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Poll: Do you like this idea? (53 member(s) have cast votes)

Do you like the idea of Armor modules as presented?

  1. Yep. Ship it. (22 votes [41.51%])

    Percentage of vote: 41.51%

  2. No. (31 votes [58.49%])

    Percentage of vote: 58.49%

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#21 Mr Vimes

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 04:03 PM

Nice Idea and great that you explained/showed it so clearly but my issue is this:

By doing this you introduce a separation between a mech's weight/size/speed/firepower and its armor. It's my opinion that if you want to be tougher - you are also going to have to go slower or have less firepower, etc.

I agree however, that something needs to be done about armor in this game. The only reasons I can see for NOT maxing out your armor is if you have an arm with no equipment on it or you are not too worried about being 'legged'.

Personally I would like to be able to drop some significant firepower on my atlas just to make it commensurately tougher.

A quick fix may be to simply raise the armor cap. Particularly on heavies and assaults.

Thanks for reading and posting about this awesome game B)

#22 Bhael Fire

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 04:37 PM

View PostMr Vimes, on 29 July 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

By doing this you introduce a separation between a mech's weight/size/speed/firepower and its armor. It's my opinion that if you want to be tougher - you are also going to have to go slower or have less firepower, etc.


The Heavy Armor module slows the mech down by 10% — I suppose the other armor modules could do the same (originally they did in my first draft). Since you can only have either a Reactive, Reflective, or Hardened Armor module equipped at a time plus a Heavy Armor module, that would be a 20% speed reduction.

That and the fact they would take up two module slots, I think that's an equitable trade-off.


View Post19cico96, on 29 July 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

You have mastered atlas ddc put all that on 2/2 and suddenly you are immortal
No good, armor we already have is fine!


20% less damage from only one type of damage would not make an Atlas "immortal" by any stretch of the imagination. Especially considering that they'd have to sacrifice a module slot to get that 20% reduction.

Edited by Bhael Fire, 29 July 2013 - 04:45 PM.


#23 FerrolupisXIII

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 05:27 PM

im in agreement with most of the others. disregarding the chatter about timeline, all of these armors became available to units, not just as rare test equipment but as regular armor.

i'd much rather see them implemented in mech lab (particularly hardened armor, seeing as it is even in timeline. half as many points per ton, but you may still equip the same number of points. so i can effectively double the weight of my armor for double the hit points, as well as a slightly slower mech. take a stalker with all mediums and say SRM-4's and be the tip of the spear.

again, not bad ideas but if they already have detailed stats for these items why change them so substantial?

#24 Khobai

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 05:43 PM

This idea is terrible. The reason its terrible is because theres no reason not to use the armor modules in the current state of the game. All youre doing is trying to bandaid the ******** damage in the game by adding modules that you have to take.

A better solution is just to fix the damn damage so you dont need armor modules in the first place.

#25 Bhael Fire

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 06:23 PM

View PostKhobai, on 29 July 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

This idea is terrible. The reason its terrible is because theres no reason not to use the armor modules in the current state of the game.


10%-20% speed reduction, plus 1-2 module slots used up isn't a good enough reason to contemplate not using these modules? Really?

View PostFerrolupisXIII, on 29 July 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

again, not bad ideas but if they already have detailed stats for these items why change them so substantial?


This is probably one of the strongest arguments against this suggestion so far...and one that I have considered for a while now. However, although these advanced armors were featured in the TT rules with stats and everything, it's important to point out that other items like the UAVs, seismic sensors, coolant (pods), etc. were too — And they have changed their implementation considerably to fit in with the context of MWO and its overall design as modules instead of standard equipment.

That's why I mentioned that at first glance, it seems like these things belong in the mechlab as standard equipment or upgrades...but within the context of how MWO is designed, it makes more sense as part the module system. This allows it to be more of an integral part of the endgame "high level" experience.

Edited by Bhael Fire, 29 July 2013 - 06:27 PM.


#26 Typhoon Storm 2142

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 04:33 AM

Great stuff. OP found a way to actually implement different armor types, consistent with the lore. Make them modules!

#27 James The Fox Dixon

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 07:15 AM

View PostBhael Fire, on 29 July 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:


10%-20% speed reduction, plus 1-2 module slots used up isn't a good enough reason to contemplate not using these modules? Really?



This is probably one of the strongest arguments against this suggestion so far...and one that I have considered for a while now. However, although these advanced armors were featured in the TT rules with stats and everything, it's important to point out that other items like the UAVs, seismic sensors, coolant (pods), etc. were too — And they have changed their implementation considerably to fit in with the context of MWO and its overall design as modules instead of standard equipment.

That's why I mentioned that at first glance, it seems like these things belong in the mechlab as standard equipment or upgrades...but within the context of how MWO is designed, it makes more sense as part the module system. This allows it to be more of an integral part of the endgame "high level" experience.


Actually, it doesn't make sense since they are to be replacements for standard armor like ferro-fibrous is. It should follow the standard set by ferro-fibrous.

#28 Bhael Fire

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 07:29 AM

View PostJames The Fox Dixon, on 30 July 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

Actually, it doesn't make sense since they are to be replacements for standard armor like ferro-fibrous is. It should follow the standard set by ferro-fibrous.


What about things like cooling pods and seismic sensors? The fact is, in MWO some equipment is better suited for the module system. Not everything translates well 1:1 from TT.

#29 Lord of All

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 07:41 AM

View PostBhael Fire, on 30 July 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:


What about things like cooling pods and seismic sensors? The fact is, in MWO some equipment is better suited for the module system. Not everything translates well 1:1 from TT.


It can be argued you have to train for those. Anyone can don armor without training.

Your suggestion is akin to making a double armor module available as in a more experienced pilot can fit more armor. Which actually is a better argument for a module than needing experience and training to use a different armor.

#30 James The Fox Dixon

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 07:45 AM

View PostBhael Fire, on 30 July 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:


What about things like cooling pods and seismic sensors? The fact is, in MWO some equipment is better suited for the module system. Not everything translates well 1:1 from TT.


Cooling pods and seismic are implemented wrong to begin with. I can understand that PGI needs to make money when it comes to the cooling pods. Seismic sensors should have required the use of Active Probe, C3 Master Computer, Improved C3 Computer, Command Console, and Communications gear that takes a minimum of 1 critical slot and weigh 1 ton. Seismic Sensors are blinded by the mech's own movement and ECM counters it. The sensor is not deployed in the mech, but in the ground in the form of sensor bouys that can be destroyed by mechs. The sensor only receives a wireless transmission from a base station that collects the seismic readings and transmits them wirelessly between the bouys to the base station then to the mech receiving the feed.

Claiming that not everything translates well and proving it are two completely different things. If they had spent the time to implement them properly then balance would have been preserved.

As it stands, the armor types you've mentioned as modules are in fact upgrades to standard armor. It makes about as much sense as having Rotary ACs and MRMs being modules instead of weapon upgrades.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 30 July 2013 - 07:46 AM.


#31 Ph30nix

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 07:50 AM

as said by other rather not be a module.

Something extra to give more pro's and cons to current mech load outs would be great.

Have to make it so for Beam weapons it gave a larger reduction to PPC's as opposed to Lasers to get it to the point where you would actually do more damage with the lasers vs the reflective armor.

Similar situation with the anti ballistic armor, dont want to nerf Machine Guns when you want to try and get people away from ac/20's and Gauss.

and of course keep it as one type at a time, People would actually have to plan their builds around the possibility of it not being very effective.

#32 Bhael Fire

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 07:57 AM

View PostJames The Fox Dixon, on 30 July 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

It makes about as much sense as having Rotary ACs and MRMs being modules instead of weapon upgrades.


Actually, now that you mention it, I have a draft for a weapon module category that provides buffs to weapons as well.

The argument comes down to this; some people feel that upgrades and advanced/rare/prototype equipment should be standard equipment, and others see an opportunity to use the module system for what it was designed for — to provide high level endgame content for players.

#33 James The Fox Dixon

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 08:01 AM

View PostBhael Fire, on 30 July 2013 - 07:57 AM, said:


Actually, now that you mention it, I have a draft for a weapon module category that provides buffs to weapons as well.

The argument comes down to this; some people feel that upgrades and advanced/rare/prototype equipment should be standard equipment, and others see an opportunity to use the module system for what it was designed for — to provide high level endgame content for players.


You're confusing a tactical and strategic wargame with an MMO. There is no high level endgame in MW or Battletech. There is only war between the various factions for control over planets and those planets change hands monthly.

Those people that you are referring too want to have cheese builds that aren't balanced in any way. At least the way TT handles advanced armors and equipment is the requirement for critical slots and tonnage as a trade off for having them. Your system has no balance or trade offs.

#34 Bhael Fire

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 08:01 AM

I love the TT game as much as any true fan of the BattleTech universe. But I also recognize the reality of the situation; this game was never meant to be a 1:1 simulation of the TT game. It has always been stated that it draws inspiration from it, but is not a slave to it.

#35 James The Fox Dixon

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 08:02 AM

View PostBhael Fire, on 30 July 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

I love the TT game as much as any true fan of the BattleTech universe. But I also recognize the reality of the situation; this game was never meant to be a 1:1 simulation of the TT game. It has always been stated that it draws inspiration from it, but is not a slave to it.


The developers have stated that they will follow the TT rules as much as they can. Since advanced armors require tonnage and critical slots then you will see them take critical and tonnage slots.

#36 Bhael Fire

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 08:02 AM

View PostJames The Fox Dixon, on 30 July 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

Your system has no balance or trade offs.


Then you have not read it completely.

#37 James The Fox Dixon

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 08:07 AM

View PostBhael Fire, on 30 July 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:


Then you have not read it completely.


I did and it contradicts the rules of TT. It is an upgrade to standard armor with trade offs for critical slots and points per ton. Not all of the advanced armor grants the same amount of protection. Then you run into a situation like Hardened Armor that slows a mech's speed down and provides less points per ton as a trade off for each point of armor absorbing twice as much damage. Your system doesn't have that. You also obviously didn't read what I posted regarding the TT rules for said armor either.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 30 July 2013 - 08:07 AM.


#38 Bhael Fire

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 08:14 AM

View PostJames The Fox Dixon, on 30 July 2013 - 08:07 AM, said:

You also obviously didn't read what I posted regarding the TT rules for said armor either.


I'm completely familiar with how it worked in the TT game. I took liberties to make it more streamlined and easier to implement, much like they did with UAVs, coolant pods, seismic sensors and other advanced equipment from the TT game.

I understand that you (and apparently a lot of other people) don't want it as a module. That's fine. I get it.

#39 Strum Wealh

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 02:27 PM

View PostJames The Fox Dixon, on 30 July 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

Cooling pods and seismic are implemented wrong to begin with. I can understand that PGI needs to make money when it comes to the cooling pods. Seismic sensors should have required the use of Active Probe, C3 Master Computer, Improved C3 Computer, Command Console, and Communications gear that takes a minimum of 1 critical slot and weigh 1 ton. Seismic Sensors are blinded by the mech's own movement and ECM counters it. The sensor is not deployed in the mech, but in the ground in the form of sensor bouys that can be destroyed by mechs. The sensor only receives a wireless transmission from a base station that collects the seismic readings and transmits them wirelessly between the bouys to the base station then to the mech receiving the feed.

Claiming that not everything translates well and proving it are two completely different things. If they had spent the time to implement them properly then balance would have been preserved.

As it stands, the armor types you've mentioned as modules are in fact upgrades to standard armor. It makes about as much sense as having Rotary ACs and MRMs being modules instead of weapon upgrades.

As it happens, seismic sensors are actually a common supplementary sensor type available to BattleMechs.
"Thermal imaging, light amplification, radar and magnetic anomaly sensors are all among the primary sensors used by BattleMechs, supplemented by seismic sensors, motion detectors, chemical analyzers and a multitude of others."
(TechManual, pg. 39)
We already have radar, thermal imaging, and light-amplification as the built-in sensor modes (though, we're still missing MAD, which was mentioned in Dev Blog 02).
Seismic sensors (along with (ultrasonic?) motion detectors, some form of chemical analysis system (possibly an array of ChemFET-type sensors), possibly some form of radiation sensor (in the form of a simple Geiger counter, or a more advanced particle detector), and more) are arguably better suited as Modules, as they serve as supplements to the primary sensors available to every BattleMech but may not always be present on any given individual 'Mech, and because they do not consume additional tonnage or critical spaces on their own.

Each of the above sensors is built into the BattleMech (e.g. a seismometer, or array of seismometers, could be installed within each foot). In addition to the built-in sensors, there exist remote sensors (that come in sets of 30 per half-ton) that are deployed from remote sensor dispensers and contain the same types of sensors as found on a BattleMech, plus a transmitter to establish a data link.
These, on the other hand, are better left as normal equipment as they do consume weight and critical spaces.

Likewise, a lot of people seem to assume (erroneously) that the data sharing in MWO is "free C3"; what it actually is, is the data-sharing capability inherent to every BattleMech.
"BattleMechs are also not islands unto themselves. They can share sensor data to some extent, allowing greater sensory performance than a single ’Mech can achieve. The specialized equipment of a C3 system takes this to new heights with direct battlefield applications, but all BattleMechs can at least receive basic sensory data from a unit mate."
(TechManual, pg. 39)

I will, however, agree that the coolant flush mechanic should have been implemented as the coolant pods from BT - they consume weight and space, and explode when they take a critical hit. :)

My opinion is that anything that consumes weight and/or critical spaces on a record sheet or TRO should be implemented as normal equipment, not as a Module.

Edited by Strum Wealh, 30 July 2013 - 02:30 PM.


#40 Lord of All

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 02:29 PM

View PostStrum Wealh, on 30 July 2013 - 02:27 PM, said:

As it happens, seismic sensors are actually a common supplementary sensor type available to BattleMechs.
"Thermal imaging, light amplification, radar and magnetic anomaly sensors are all among the primary sensors used by BattleMechs, supplemented by seismic sensors, motion detectors, chemical analyzers and a multitude of others."
(TechManual, pg. 39)
We already have radar, thermal imaging, and light-amplification as the built-in sensor modes (though, we're still missing MAD, which was mentioned in Dev Blog 02).
Seismic sensors (along with (ultrasonic?) motion detectors, some form of chemical analysis system (possibly an array of ChemFET-type sensors), possibly some form of radiation sensor (in the form of a simple Geiger counter, or a more advanced particle detector), and more) are arguably better suited as Modules, as they serve as supplements to the primary sensors available to every BattleMech but may not always be present on any given individual 'Mech, and because they do not consume additional tonnage or critical spaces on their own.

Each of the above sensors is built into the BattleMech (e.g. a seismometer, or array of seismometers, could be installed within each foot). In addition to the built-in sensors, there exist remote sensors (that come in sets of 30 per half-ton) that are deployed from remote sensor dispensers and contain the same types of sensors as found on a BattleMech, plus a transmitter to establish a data link.
These, on the other hand, are better left as normal equipment as they do consume weight and critical spaces.

Likewise, a lot of people seem to assume (erroneously) that the data sharing in MWO is "free C3"; what it actually is, is the data-sharing capability inherent to every BattleMech.
"BattleMechs are also not islands unto themselves. They can share sensor data to some extent, allowing greater sensory performance than a single ’Mech can achieve. The specialized equipment of a C3 system takes this to new heights with direct battlefield applications, but all BattleMechs can at least receive basic sensory data from a unit mate."
(TechManual, pg. 39)

I will, however, agree that the coolant flush mechanic should have been implemented as the coolant pods from BT - they consume weight and space, and explode when they take a critical hit. :)

My opinion is that anything that consumes weight and/or critical spaces on a record sheet or TRO should not be inplemented as normal equipment, not as a Module.


So one wonders why If a team member has seismic it's not shared?





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