15 replies to this topic

[lizardmech]

The UAC and LBX autocannons have been stuck with balancing issues since closed beta. From what I have seen it's more or less impossible to balance these in their current from. Any time the UAC5 gets it's jam rate reduced it replaces the AC5 then when it receives a nerf everyone ditches them for normal AC5s. The weapon is always just going to be an overpowered or underpowered AC with the current balancing attempts.

The LBX is in a similar situation, it's spread currently makes it worse than the AC10 however if you increase the raw damage it will become overpowered. Many have talked about adding slug ammunition however all this will do is make the LBX replace the it's standard counterpart in every build.

My suggestion is to radically change the firing rate of these weapons while leaving the averaged damage and heat over time values around the same. This way the weapons would have different roles rather than outright replacing generic autocannon models.

For the rate of fire I would suggest something like:
150 / 300 rounds per minute on UAC with damage, heat and ammo count scaled accordingly, while the jam rate scales with the duration of the time double fire rate. This would also help potential balance issues with upcoming clan UAC20 weapons as their huge damage wouldn't be focused into huge front loaded 20 damage per shot mechanics.

For LBX I would suggest around 60 rounds per minute, the faster fire rate would allow it to keep light mechs and damaged mechs under constant pressure.

[Cruxer]

I can't back this up with "raw" data, but I have been running Dual LBX for a week now and so far I'm pretty happy with the performance of the weapon. I'm running it with supporting LRMs for long range and a couple of MLs, you just need to be very much aware of the fact that you need to get up close and personal with your LBXs and than it is a lethal weapon.

The trade off VS an AC20 is that you can hit lights with it because of the spread, but you loose accuracy (pin-point damage) over 200m+

With regards to UACs.. I ran triple UAC on my Muromets for a long time, but I just wasn't competitive anymore VS the Gauss/PPC crowd, so I am ashamed to admit I dumped the UACs and went with cheese build instead.

[Demos]

lizardmech, on 26 July 2013 - 12:27 AM, said:

The LBX is in a similar situation, it's spread currently makes it worse than the AC10 however if you increase the raw damage it will become overpowered. Many have talked about adding slug ammunition however all this will do is make the LBX replace the it's standard counterpart in every build.

Decrease RoF of the AC/10 to 2.25sec
Keep 2.5 sec for LBX, combined with an additional cooldown of 1.0 sec for switching ammo.

Now you have a flexible gun with more range, one point less heat and one ton less weight, versus a (slightly) faster firing standard AC.

Edited by Demos, 26 July 2013 - 05:11 AM.

[Jonny Taco]

lizardmech, on 26 July 2013 - 12:27 AM, said:

The LBX is in a similar situation, it's spread currently makes it worse than the AC10 however if you increase the raw damage it will become overpowered.

Yeah, this part I 100% disagree with. "increasing raw dmg beyond an ac-10 makes it overpowered" why?, explain to me why a weapon that will only be able to hit a single section on a mech at 0m be overpowred it it's total damage was around 12-13.

I simply do not understand your point here, it makes no sense. Even if the lbx's total dmg was increased to 15, there is no way it would be "over powered". It's spread is far too wide, like to the point where at 200m you're hitting a mech with maybe 1/3 of your projectiles. There is litterally no situation in which an lbx-10 is a better choice than an ac-10, unless of course you're really really bad... An increase in RAW dmg would make the lbx-10 a better damage dealer at only the closet ranges, the ac-10 will still be the prefered weapon and in all honesty, the ac-10 is pretty bad.


As for the ultra ac's... Their current implementation will be non functional once larger ultras hit the scene... They will either be extremely OP, or a liability if you get an unlucky jam roll... I'd much rather see ultras as faster firing acs that have slightly shorter range, produce slightly more heat, and are slightly less accurate.

Edited by lartfor, 26 July 2013 - 07:08 AM.

[Fire and Salt]

I think that the lbx should do double damage to internals once exposed- i am referring to internal structure, not just crits -that would give it a useful niche.

[Fire and Salt]

IMO ac5 and uac5 could both use a .1 or maybe just .05 sec rate of fire buff...

Damage over time weapons are currently not as viable as long cool down, pinpoint damage weapons.


That being said, they ate both still useful weapons - I prefer the uac5 myself.

[Zyllos]

Cruxer, on 26 July 2013 - 12:59 AM, said:

I can't back this up with "raw" data, but I have been running Dual LBX for a week now and so far I'm pretty happy with the performance of the weapon. I'm running it with supporting LRMs for long range and a couple of MLs, you just need to be very much aware of the fact that you need to get up close and personal with your LBXs and than it is a lethal weapon.

The trade off VS an AC20 is that you can hit lights with it because of the spread, but you loose accuracy (pin-point damage) over 200m+

With regards to UACs.. I ran triple UAC on my Muromets for a long time, but I just wasn't competitive anymore VS the Gauss/PPC crowd, so I am ashamed to admit I dumped the UACs and went with cheese build instead.

Do you use the LBX at it's optimal range?

If not, this is a HUGE issue. The LBX stands for Light Bore - Extended Range. It's not suppose to be a "shotgun". It's suppose be a lighter AC with extended range and shoots a flak canister that explodes when in close proximity of a solid object.

And this is not a hard change to implement. Just reuse the range finder code that is running next to your crosshair, do it on every update of the server when a flak canister is flying, and if that range finder reads <50m, explode into the submunitions it does now. If somehow a player runs into the flak canister without it going off (maybe he just moved perpendicular into it), just make the canister deal 50% damage to the location it landed on.

This is the only change the LBX needs. This will also make the future LBX/5 and LBX/2 actually worth using. The LBX/2 is the longest ranged weapon in the game, so why should it be considered a "shotgun"?

Regarding the UAC, the weapon just needs an overhaul of it's mechanics. The weapon needs it's input to fire changed with some type of button, say like a Full Fire and Safe Fire. When in Full Fire, holding down the button will always attempt to fire the weapon, even on cooldown if double tap isn't used where Safe Fire will only fire off of cooldown, never using the double tap. With this change, lower the UAC's chance of a jam but increase the time of jam. After doing this, make the UAC have the exact same cooldown as the AC of the same size. Leave tapping the fire button the same, no matter what setting the weapon is in.

What this will do is make the UAC a weapon that if you need to put out a lot of firepower in Full Fire mode but you run the chance of a jam, which will jam for a long time. But setting it to Safe Fire mode will keep the UAC firing like a normal AC, but allow the user to control when to double tap by physically tapping the fire button when needed.

Edited by Zyllos, 26 July 2013 - 06:46 AM.

[Warge]

lizardmech, on 26 July 2013 - 12:27 AM, said:

while the jam rate scales with the duration of the time double fire rate.

Good idea. But "numbers" of this duration... PGI have problem with numbers.

[Syllogy]

Warge, on 26 July 2013 - 06:40 AM, said:

Good idea. But "numbers" of this duration... PGI have problem with numbers.

Like what numbers?

[TELEFORCE]

I think there are two ways to approach tweaking the LBX-AC/10, and in a way, the AC/10:

I think that the slug ammunition for the LBX should be implemented, but make the weapon act a little differently for mounting slug ammo. Maybe have it generate more heat when firing the slugs? Reduced slug velocity or ROF? Something to make it so that it doesn't totally outclass the AC/10.

Or, if we're talking about implementing ammo types, the advantage that the AC/10 had over the LBX-AC/10 on tabletop was that there were more ammunition types available to the AC/10 that the LBX couldn't use, such as precision ammunition (semi-guided shells, good for swatting down fast lights and mediums), and armor-piercing (chance to cause critical hits against locations with intact armor). There's also flak ammunition, but that's better for flying targets (which aren't in the game unless you count UAVs), but it could double as a nerfed LBX cluster round.

Bear in mind that the precision and armor-piercing AC ammo only contains half as many rounds per ton since the individual rounds are heavier. Also, they tend to be more expensive to purchase. Also, Ultra ACs cannot use any specialty ammo (I know that's arbitrary, but it was like that on tabletop for the sake of balance I believe).

[Barantor]

Dunno why folks keep calling it slug ammo...

From Sarna.net

Quote

Introduced in 2595 by the Terran Hegemony. The LB 10-X Autocannon is essentially a 'Mech-mounted shotgun, capable of firing special "cluster rounds" that split apart after being fired, allowing the weapon to either spread damage out or focus damage on a small area, depending on the range. LB-X Autocannons are able to use either the special cluster rounds or standard autocannon rounds. The LB 10-X Autocannon, having a higher caliber, causes higher damage than lower-caliber autocannons, though it is limited to medium ranges.

Basically an lbx is an autocannon that has the ability to fire cluster round or normal ammo and has more range than a standard AC.

It is supposed to be better than a normal ac in every way. Lets make it use both rounds and do what it is supposed to do until the other ammo comes out for the normal autocannons.

Edited by Barantor, 26 July 2013 - 03:30 PM.

[KuruptU4Fun]

The problem your touching on really is only solved when you are running more than one of those weapons on a mech. That's ultimately where those weapons come into their own. Should you buff the rate, nerf the penalties or other already implemented tweaks. Those have been tried and all ultimately failed. So a new perspective is needed:

Allow the LBX to change spread on it's own. In the lab you can set the spread at different intervals(module based maybe?). The tighter the spread the lets the damage potential go farther, but damage drops off quickly after X meters
The wider the spread you get more damage overall, but are limited by range set back in the lab...

Still working on the UAC

[Master Q]

lizardmech, on 26 July 2013 - 12:27 AM, said:

The UAC and LBX autocannons have been stuck with balancing issues since closed beta. From what I have seen it's more or less impossible to balance these in their current from. Any time the UAC5 gets it's jam rate reduced it replaces the AC5 then when it receives a nerf everyone ditches them for normal AC5s. The weapon is always just going to be an overpowered or underpowered AC with the current balancing attempts.

The LBX is in a similar situation, it's spread currently makes it worse than the AC10 however if you increase the raw damage it will become overpowered. Many have talked about adding slug ammunition however all this will do is make the LBX replace the it's standard counterpart in every build.

My suggestion is to radically change the firing rate of these weapons while leaving the averaged damage and heat over time values around the same. This way the weapons would have different roles rather than outright replacing generic autocannon models.

For the rate of fire I would suggest something like:
150 / 300 rounds per minute on UAC with damage, heat and ammo count scaled accordingly, while the jam rate scales with the duration of the time double fire rate. This would also help potential balance issues with upcoming clan UAC20 weapons as their huge damage wouldn't be focused into huge front loaded 20 damage per shot mechanics.

For LBX I would suggest around 60 rounds per minute, the faster fire rate would allow it to keep light mechs and damaged mechs under constant pressure.

Honestly I think this is why previous games locked UACs to the two-slug mode and didn't bother with the one-slug "maybe fire faster" option. It made the balancing manageable.

The TT rebalancing option was to introduce specialized ammo that could be used in a normal AC but not in a UAC... but that is a long way off from implementation in MWO, I fear.

[TELEFORCE]

Master Q, on 26 July 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

The TT rebalancing option was to introduce specialized ammo that could be used in a normal AC but not in a UAC... but that is a long way off from implementation in MWO, I fear.

I really hope they implement different ammo types after launch.

As for the UACs, I like how the UAC/5 is currently implemented. For future UACs, like the Clan UAC/10 and 20, I imagine they will work similarly, with a higher chance of jamming on the second shot and a longer reload than the UAC/5, but shorter than their standard AC variants.

[Fire and Salt]

I agree with the above - I prefer the UAC because it has a higher DPS on average. Many prefer the AC5 because it is more reliable, lighter, and with more ammo per ton. I can see their argument, even though I disagree, so the AC5 is a valuable weapon too have in the game. The LBX, however, seems to lack a niche.

I also agree that the UAC20 does not need to be broken:

Ex:
UAC20
Recycle Time: 4.0 or 3.9
Tonnage: 15 Tons
Heat: 3 Heat
Jam Probability: 33.3% to 50%
Unjam Time: around 8.0

It is not written in stone that the jam % must be the same for all UACs. Also - the unjam time will obviously need to be longer for the larger weapons.

Edited by Fire and Salt, 26 July 2013 - 03:01 PM.

[Jonny Taco]

Barantor, on 26 July 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

Dunno why folks keep calling it slug ammo...

From Sarna.net


Basically an lbx is an autocannon that has the ability to fire cluster round or normal ammo and has more range than a standard AC.

It is supposed to be better than a normal ac in every way. Lets make it use both rounds and do what it is supposed to do until the other ammo comes out for the normal autocannons.

Gameplay balance is > 1980s TT cannon.

While this game is oh so very obviously based on the BT IP, it does not mean that it has to follow the TT ruleset to the T, which it most certainly does not atm...

Making the lbx10 simply a better ac-10 is a BAD idea, regardless if it's true to the TT or not. A game with customization like this is obviously s'pose to be about choices. Your suggestion removes a choice that most certainly should be preset (even though lbx-10 are a non choice atm).

The best solution imo is to simply increase the maximum damage dealt by the lbx-10 to around 12-13. The best way to do this (again imo) is to reduce the number of projectiles fired to 6, reduce the spread by a small ammount and increase the damage of each projectile to 2.