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The Relationship Between Mech Flexibility And Player Choice


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#1 Roland

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 09:08 AM

Recently, a comment was made in the CDU thread:

View PostBelorion, on 26 July 2013 - 07:49 AM, said:

3) Restrictions make the game less dynamic. I do agree that a lot of these current hot topics are coming from the Stalker boats, but that is already being addressed.


This is a common misconception, I believe, and one that I myself once held. I've always been a fan of the mechlab. I don't want to play stock mechs. I like being able to construct and tweak my rides.

However, when considering things like build variety, we must remember that any given mech build is not constructed in a vacuum on its own. Every build exists within the greater mechwarrior universe at large, and competes against other mechs in that universe. As such, builds actually have the tendency to effectively invalidate other builds, by being flat out superior to them.

To illustrate this, consider the limiting case, from earlier mechwarrior games like MW2, where there were effectively no restrictions at all on mechs that could be built. Imagine that in MWO, you could mount literally any piece of equipment on any mech, anywhere you want as long as you had the critical slots.

How would this impact gameplay, and the viability of various mech designs?

The only feature which would separate mechs in that case would be the physical shape of the mech. All mechs would effectively become "gun-bags". While more designs would be possible in the mechlab, most of them would end up being flat out inferior to other designs which mounted the exact same loadout in a chassis that had better hit boxes. Decisions of which mech to drive could essentially be boiled down to only three factors:
Weight
Geometry
Arm location (a subfacet of geometry, essentially where your weapons are going to shoot out of... high up like the stalker, or waist high like the atlas)

While many more configurations would be possible, since any chassis could mount any loadout, the actual number of viable configurations would dwindle significantly, because the game would boil down to a handful of optimum weapons loadouts, mounted on the one chassis that had the best geometry characteristics.

A mech like the stalker would, in many ways, effectively just become the single best assault mech. It'd be able to mount ECM, negating one of the chief advantages of the Atlas DC. It'd be able to mount JJ's, negating the advantages of the Victor and the Highlander. It'd have high mounted weapons and a small profile, giving it geometrical advantages over the other assaults. It'd be the best assault in many ways (barring potentially new configurations which needed just more raw tonnage to mount, which could be the case).

Certainly, when comparing mechs of equal tonnage in such a system, it becomes most obvious that complete flexibility would actually reduce the game's variety. If you have two mechs with equal tonnage, the one with better geometry would just be better, since everything else then becomes equal.

At the #saveMWO townhall last night, a player named Maus made some very insightful comments in this regard, that I think bear repeating. I'm not going to be able to recall them exactly, so I'll paraphrase and try to not butcher them too much.

In order to foster actual mech variety on the field, you need to give players a REASON to bring different mechs. Those mechs need to all have advantages that make them uniquely useful. The reason you rarely see Awesome's on the field, is because there's very little reason to bring them. They don't actually do anything better than other mechs, because their weapons loadout can effectively be put into other mechs with better geometry.

One way to help develop these unique capabilities in different mech chassis and variants is to impose some sort of hardpoint restriction. We do not need to go into the details of such a system here, and get in a fight over it, but merely note that such changes could potentially help add variety to the set of viable mechs we see on the field.

By restricting the loadouts that a given mech can carry, we then create an advantage for other chassis which can mount different loadouts.

For instance, imagine that a mech like the stalker (or highlander for that matter) could only mount 2 PPC's, and we didn't have the recent heat changes. Those mechs both have fairly significant advantages over the Awesome. The Highlander can jump and pack a Gauss rifle. The Stalker's body profile is far superior for sniping, and tends to be much tougher to take down.

Restrictions on the hardpoint capacity for mechs like the stalker and Highlander, while removing the configurations on those variants which run 3 PPC's, suddenly ENABLE the usage of an Awesome variant that carries 3 PPC's. That mech may suddenly become viable, because while it has geometry deficiencies compared to the other chassis, it would then have an ability that they cannot perform.

This is the really key issue here. By placing restrictions on mech configuration, you then give players a choice. They are then able to make more complex decisions, weighing various aspects and capabilities of various mechs and choosing one for a particular role, rather than simply picking "the best" mech in that regard.

Again, this is merely meant to be an example. The specifics of the builds mentioned here are not meant to be a basis for serious discussion regarding those particular configurations or mechs, but rather just an illustration of how removal of some choices can actually enable more choices for players overall, when we look at the larger mechwarrior game as a whole.

Ultimately, hardpoint restrictions are only one type of restriction, and perhaps not the best one to achieve our goals as a community. But I think the fact remains that in order to create a game with a wide variety of possible mech builds and tactics, we actually need to restrict the mechs that we build. If every mech can do everything, then a handful will rise to the top and be the best, and effectively negate all the others. But with well designed restrictions on mech construction, many different options can co-exist, because they all perform unique roles within the game.

#2 FupDup

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 09:16 AM

One additional misconception about hardpoints is that the few mechs who can mount the FoTM weapons would dominate everything else that can't. The way around that specific issue is to make it so every individual weapon has a niche/role to fulfill. In such a world, being only able to shove small ballistics (up to AC/5?) in your K2 (instead of Gauss or AC/20) wouldn't be a hindrance because those weapons wouldn't suck.

Edited by FupDup, 26 July 2013 - 09:17 AM.


#3 RG Notch

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 09:18 AM

View PostFupDup, on 26 July 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

One additional misconception about hardpoints is that the few mechs who can mount the FoTM weapons would dominate everything else that can't. The way around that specific issue is to make it so every individual weapon has a niche/role to fulfill. In such a world, being only able to shove small ballistics in your K2 (instead of Gauss or AC/20) wouldn't be a hindrance because those weapons wouldn't suck.

Well, if weapons were actually balanced and didn't suck you probably wouldn't need hardpoint restrictions. ;)

#4 Roland

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 09:20 AM

View PostRG Notch, on 26 July 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

Well, if weapons were actually balanced and didn't suck you probably wouldn't need hardpoint restrictions. ;)

Well, I think that the point of my post is that hardpoint restrictions would improve the game even if all weapons were viable.

Because, even in such a situation, certain mechs would effectively be made moot by virtue of the fact that other mechs essentially have the same hardpoints in better geometry.

The Stalker and Awesome are really the best example of this, in that for the most part, most builds that you can mount in an awesome can be more effectively fielded in a stalker.

#5 FupDup

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 09:21 AM

View PostRG Notch, on 26 July 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

Well, if weapons were actually balanced and didn't suck you probably wouldn't need hardpoint restrictions. ;)

Making all weapons viable doesn't change the fact that mechs like the Awesome suck.

#6 Jestun

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 09:21 AM

Restrictions (specifically hardpoint and often in general) do not remove FotM builds, they just move them to other chassis.

The only way to stop people all using the same gear is if one set of gear isn't plainly the best stuff to use.

I.e. balance is the answer, not restrictions.

#7 Unbound Inferno

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 09:23 AM

Battletech had the initial idea right. Balancing damage/crit sizes and heat cost between tonnage and mobility.

When we get into where you can only load so many of a weapon, its gotta be the best weapon or your mech will not be able to handle the fight.

Through that, it just isn't feasable to balance between a ML vs a PPC when you can only mount one or another. Its one of the reasons I prefer the crit size restrictions. 3 MLs make a niche that a PPC can't.

#8 RG Notch

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 09:24 AM

View PostRoland, on 26 July 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

Well, I think that the point of my post is that hardpoint restrictions would improve the game even if all weapons were viable.

Because, even in such a situation, certain mechs would effectively be made moot by virtue of the fact that other mechs essentially have the same hardpoints in better geometry.

The Stalker and Awesome are really the best example of this, in that for the most part, most builds that you can mount in an awesome can be more effectively fielded in a stalker.

Well then don't have a mechlab. Because you effectively won't outside people who want to make weird builds as whatever you setup only works on a chassis will the ones used. I.E. why build anything but a 3 PPC Awesome?

#9 3rdworld

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 09:25 AM

View PostRoland, on 26 July 2013 - 09:08 AM, said:


This is the really key issue here. By placing restrictions on mech configuration, you then give players a choice. They are then able to make more complex decisions, weighing various aspects and capabilities of various mechs and choosing one for a particular role, rather than simply picking "the best" mech in that regard.



How do you reach this conclusion? Even in your example, if I wanted to run 3 PPCs, the best / only mech I could use would be a awesome.

Right now, I can use a K2, Cataphract, Dragon, Trebuchet, Awesome, Highlander, Stalker, Atlas, quickdraw, etc.

with 4 of those choices being very viable: the Cataphract, Highlander, Stalker, Atlas, and trebs actually used to be popular before assault mech takeover.

Your restrictions leave me with AWS-8Q or AWS-9M of which the 9M is clearly superior. How did you expand my choices a player? You didn't, you created an affirmative action system to try to force relevancy on the awesome.

Edited by 3rdworld, 26 July 2013 - 09:30 AM.


#10 Unbound Inferno

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 09:27 AM

View PostRG Notch, on 26 July 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

Well then don't have a mechlab. Because you effectively won't outside people who want to make weird builds as whatever you setup only works on a chassis will the ones used. I.E. why build anything but a 3 PPC Awesome?

The fact that the Awesome just can't turn well enough in a brawl and a Haunchback can tear it to pieces in close quarters?

#11 RG Notch

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 09:30 AM

View PostUnbound Inferno, on 26 July 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

The fact that the Awesome just can't turn well enough in a brawl and a Haunchback can tear it to pieces in close quarters?

I'm talking about builds for Awesomes. The only build viable would be the 3 PPC one, why make any other kind of Awesome? I guess at least one viable Awesome is better than none, but it just shows that restrictions don't bring diversity either. Too much freedom and too little lead to no real choices.

#12 Roland

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 09:36 AM

Wow.

They moved this to the Mechs and loadouts forum? Despite the fact that this is about how hardpoints affect overall game balance?

That's sad.

Oh well. Thanks to the moderator that did it, without even bothering to explain why.

View PostJestun, on 26 July 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

Restrictions (specifically hardpoint and often in general) do not remove FotM builds, they just move them to other chassis.

The only way to stop people all using the same gear is if one set of gear isn't plainly the best stuff to use.

Certainly, weapons balance is a critical issue, but I think you're making an error here.

Why wouldn't the FOTM build just move from the stalker to the awesome, in this case? Because the awesome is significantly less tough than the stalker. Thus, the player is forced to make a choice between the weapon loadout and the geometry, rather than just choosing the best of both.

Balancing the weapons doesn't really deal with the issues here, because of a case like the Stalker vs. the Awesome, where the stalker can basically mount ANYTHING that the awesome can. In situations like that, the mech with the better geometry (the Stalker) negates the existence of the one with worse geometry. If you don't give some advantage to the chassis with weaker geometry, then it will never be used.

#13 Roland

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 09:41 AM

View Post3rdworld, on 26 July 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:


How do you reach this conclusion? Even in your example, if I wanted to run 3 PPCs, the best / only mech I could use would be a awesome.

Right now, I can use a K2, Cataphract, Dragon, Trebuchet, Awesome, Highlander, Stalker, Atlas, quickdraw, etc.

with 4 of those choices being very viable: the Cataphract, Highlander, Stalker, Atlas, and trebs actually used to be popular before assault mech takeover.

Your restrictions leave me with AWS-8Q or AWS-9M of which the 9M is clearly superior. How did you expand my choices a player? You didn't, you created an affirmative action system to try to force relevancy on the awesome.

Well, there are two issues here.

One, it most certainly does restrict the chassis that you can mount a particular loadout onto... but by doing so, you give different chassis different roles (assuming, as others have pointed out, some kind of weapons balance where various different loadouts are possible). All of those chassis you list would not necessarily be able to carry 3 PPC's, but they'd be able to carry other loadouts that the Awesome can't. Thus, players can choose a chassis based on what they want to bring, rather than just choosing the best chassis and putting the best loadout on it.

That's the thing, many of those "choices" you listed are just illusions. They're not actual choices, because they are plainly inferior to other options.

Finally, I think you are imposing some additional constraints which would not necessarily be true. For instance, there is nothing which says there could not possibly be a cataphract variant which could carry 3 PPC's.

The suggestion that hardpoints be restricted is not at all a suggestion that only stock variant hardpoints exist. Rather, it's a suggestion that hardpoints be restricted in some manner, to help make different chassis more unique in their capabilities.

#14 Jestun

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 09:43 AM

View PostRoland, on 26 July 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

Wow.

They moved this to the Mechs and loadouts forum? Despite the fact that this is about how hardpoints affect overall game balance?

That's sad.

Oh well. Thanks to the moderator that did it, without even bothering to explain why.

Certainly, weapons balance is a critical issue, but I think you're making an error here.

Why wouldn't the FOTM build just move from the stalker to the awesome, in this case? Because the awesome is significantly less tough than the stalker. Thus, the player is forced to make a choice between the weapon loadout and the geometry, rather than just choosing the best of both.

Balancing the weapons doesn't really deal with the issues here, because of a case like the Stalker vs. the Awesome, where the stalker can basically mount ANYTHING that the awesome can. In situations like that, the mech with the better geometry (the Stalker) negates the existence of the one with worse geometry. If you don't give some advantage to the chassis with weaker geometry, then it will never be used.


No... people will work out what's more important, the weaponry or the geometry, and then that will be the FotM build. That's how flavour of the month works, people work out what is good / the best and use it. Restrictions change *what* is best, they do not make everything equal.

As for differences between chassis I prefer the more subtle differences that some have and some had added (but not all). E.g. the max twist on a Catapult.


But even that won't help if the weapons are unbalanced, as people will still work out which chassis is best for the best set of weapons (or the best balance of mech design & hardpoint availability).

#15 RussianWolf

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 10:16 AM

I run 2 PPC (sometimes 3PPC) Awesomes because I can and I'm successful at it.

I have never run a 6PPC Stalker even though I could. It shouldn't exist, so I don't play it.

To me the epitome of this is still the K2.

You replace a stock .5 ton/1slot machine gun with a 14ton/10slot AC20? No way should this be possible. The weapon would not fit in the location. What does PGI do? They make a new skin with the appropriate barrel. Doesn't address how the mechanism for it would fill the entire cockpit.

I'll keep playing within rational rules.

#16 Roland

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 10:26 AM

Quote

No... people will work out what's more important, the weaponry or the geometry, and then that will be the FotM build.

But you are presuming that such a decision is just as simple as trying to find the best build that optimizes both, and I think you are mistaken there.

On one hand, you are simply finding the best mech, and running that. In the other, you are making a choice about how you want to play. The second option is better from a game design perspective, because you are giving the player a choice.

Perhaps it's worth looking at the limiting case I presented.

Do you think that it would be better if all mechs were simply gun-bags, that could mount any equipment they wanted? Do you believe that would result in a better game?


Quote

Well then don't have a mechlab. Because you effectively won't outside people who want to make weird builds as whatever you setup only works on a chassis will the ones used. I.E. why build anything but a 3 PPC Awesome?

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.
You would definitely still have a mechlab, and be able to construct different builds. But you might be a bit more limited in your options.

For instance, you might not be able to mount two AC 20's on a catapult K2.

#17 RG Notch

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 10:41 AM

View PostRoland, on 26 July 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:


I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.
You would definitely still have a mechlab, and be able to construct different builds. But you might be a bit more limited in your options.

For instance, you might not be able to mount two AC 20's on a catapult K2.

What I'm trying to say is just as you wouldn't really have much choice in a mech lab with no restrictions, you have virtually no choices in one with too many restrictions. If you allow some special combos on some chassis you will pretty much only get that build on that chassis. I.E. if only Awesomes can carry 3 PPCs you will only see Awesomes carrying 3 PPCs. If you are admitting the chassis sucks for builds that you can make on other mechs, you still wouldn't get anything more than 1 viable build per chassis so you might as well just make them stock and be done with it.
This same old go round happens whenever people want to say that restrictions will bring diversity. They won't. Now if you simply want to make one viable build of mechs like the Awesome, well then why have a mechlab, just make the one viable build for Awesomes be the only build? Just save lots of trouble and make the only mechs available the ones that mount the only viable builds.
This same argument comes up every time restrictions are brought up and for good reason. There's no way to make every build perfectly balanced. So too much freedom or too much restrictions just force cookie cutter builds on those folks who must win at any cost. Other people will build different builds for other reasons. If you make too many restrictions you can't even build those.
I'm all about having meaningful choices, I just find over restrictive build rules remove choice as effectively as too loose rules.

#18 Belorion

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 10:53 AM

Restricting weapons further will only make the choices of mechs less. Lets say for example that they implemented restrictions on the ppc that made the Awesome the only mech that can carry three PPCs. If PPC's are the bomb everyone says they are, then people will stop bringing whatever they used before Atlas-RS Highlander Stalker Cataphract, and they only bring the Awesome.

#19 Roland

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 10:57 AM

Quote

What I'm trying to say is just as you wouldn't really have much choice in a mech lab with no restrictions, you have virtually no choices in one with too many restrictions. If you allow some special combos on some chassis you will pretty much only get that build on that chassis. I.E. if only Awesomes can carry 3 PPCs you will only see Awesomes carrying 3 PPCs. If you are admitting the chassis sucks for builds that you can make on other mechs, you still wouldn't get anything more than 1 viable build per chassis so you might as well just make them stock and be done with it.


There is certainly some truth to this. If carrying 3 PPC's is the only thing an awesome can do that a stalker can't, then it would generally be the only thing you saw folks doing with Awesomes. Although given the fact that you generally don't tend to see any awesomes , this wouldn't constitute a reduction in the variety of awesome chassis being driven.

However, I suspect that you could achieve a system which effectively enabled you to build a variety of different things with any given chassis. Additionally, such a system may allow you to abandon the notion of trying to limit specific weapons. For instance, if only the Awesome could carry the PPC's in such a fashion, then you might not have to worry about imposing ghost heat on 3 PPC configurations.

As I said in my orignal post though, there are two main points here which are more important that specifics regarding hardpoint restrictions. That mechs need to be given unique roles that give players choices and reasons to bring them, and that restricting hardpoints could potentially help achieve such an end.


Quote

If PPC's are the bomb everyone says they are, then people will stop bringing whatever they used before Atlas-RS Highlander Stalker Cataphract, and they only bring the Awesome.

Really, Belorian? You think that's what would happen?

That everyone would bring nothing but Awesomes? Despite their terrible hitboxes and geometry?

#20 3rdworld

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 10:57 AM

View PostRoland, on 26 July 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

Well, there are two issues here.

One, it most certainly does restrict the chassis that you can mount a particular loadout onto... but by doing so, you give different chassis different roles (assuming, as others have pointed out, some kind of weapons balance where various different loadouts are possible). All of those chassis you list would not necessarily be able to carry 3 PPC's, but they'd be able to carry other loadouts that the Awesome can't. Thus, players can choose a chassis based on what they want to bring, rather than just choosing the best chassis and putting the best loadout on it.

That's the thing, many of those "choices" you listed are just illusions. They're not actual choices, because they are plainly inferior to other options.

Finally, I think you are imposing some additional constraints which would not necessarily be true. For instance, there is nothing which says there could not possibly be a cataphract variant which could carry 3 PPC's.

The suggestion that hardpoints be restricted is not at all a suggestion that only stock variant hardpoints exist. Rather, it's a suggestion that hardpoints be restricted in some manner, to help make different chassis more unique in their capabilities.


How does moving it to different chassis, remove there being a best? In your example if there is a cataphract capable of using 3 ppcs, it is going to be superior to the awesome. Really if there is any mech without complete garbage for art, it is going to be better than the awesome.

I gave you 4 mechs that can use 3 ppcs and be 100% viable, with a 5th that used to be viable until recently.

Sorry, I assumed you would be basing your argument on sizes that more closely resemble stock. Hardponts are set by stock weapons, and I inferred that onto your system.





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