740 replies to this topic

[Stalkerr]

The letter was forwarded up the chain late on Friday, so odds are they'll see it tomorrow.

In the meantime, I'm having a weekend. We'replanning our next meeting and will release details about it soon.

Going forward, this will probably not just be me running this, as it really belongs to everyone. We're setting up the tools to facilitate that.

While we wait for that and PGI's response, lets all sit back and enjoy time with our families/friends/pets/Internet.

[Rippthrough]

Stalkerr, on 28 July 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

While we wait for that and PGI's response, lets all sit back and enjoy time with our families/friends/pets/Internet.

Nah, trolling some of the forum whiners with MG's and Flamers is much more fun.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Had PGI done ingame VoIP, there'd be no need for Elo, the system developed for matchmaking in Chess.

Hawken, a lackluster game, has a beautiful tutorial.

There is no need for a heat scaling system. Make PPCs hotter and add in heat effects. Give snipers that first shot of pinpoint wicked accuracy, but if they get hot from weapon stacking, that convergence starts getting wonky.



But what will kill this game the fastest is its [REDACTED] new player experience. Every F2P game that has made it out of Alpha has had a damnable tutorial. In fact, as far as games go, Diablo 2 was the last one I can remember that lacked a proper tutorial, and that was in 1998.

If I could prioritize:
-This coming Thursday, I'd have a tutorial ready to tested by the community. Get their feedback. Make the changes, and implement it the following Tuesday.
-get the commununity to make a series of trial mechs, one or two fully optimized variants of EACH and EVERY chassis and simply rotate through every two weeks. And when they have sales on them for MC allow the player to purchase that exact trial mech. And to help new players that are ready to purchase their first CBill mech, let them buy one of the trials in rotation exactly as they are.
-Start minor weapon tweaks on the test server every Thursday, ONE single change to ONE single weapon, and if its positively liked, implement that change into the live servers that following Tuesday.

Edited by Dakkath, 29 July 2013 - 10:40 AM.
language.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Jackson Jax Teller, on 28 July 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

so 600 elites > 5500 players all across the board is your opinion?

Guess what their opinion is.

It's the competition level players that figure out how to break the mechanics, they find the exploits, they figure out how to abuse the system. The rest of the player base is just "monkey see, monkey do."

The typical 732 with a Gauss rifle, 2xPPCs, and an ERPPC was seen on day 1 of the Highlanders release in upper echelon play. My Alt account that is intentionally in the Window Licker Queue so can run *****-n-giggles builds didn't see anything resembling that build until two weeks later.


Most of the Comp level players have been playing and providing feedback since it first became playable, back when when the devs played with their playerbase and actively asked us questions on balance and content.

[N0MAD]

Tegiminis, on 28 July 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

[DELETED CONTENT]

Thats not very productive and IMO, very short sighted. This whole idea is to voice players concerns, your concerns may be things like Heat or convergence, others have different concerns, Jacksons, myself and many others may be the simple fact that we feel that PGI refuses to listen to the player base and have for a very long time as demonstrated by his (Jacksons) links to post that clearly demonstrate this. What we are asking from you is, what is the next step, where is it you go if PGI doesnt react to the 600 sigs and it is in their history not to, look at the result of countless polls participated in by hundreds and thousands of players not as individuals but as a group that have been ignored, so what is the next step?.
You may also want to consider that this may be counter productive, as in, PGI see that altho people (all 600 of you hardcore + those represented) are unhappy about what they are dishing out to you, you keep coming back regardless of how youre treated, giving them the go ahead to do what they want without consequence.
So again what I, many of my friends and alot of others are asking before we decide to join this crusade are asking is what is the next serious step if our sigs and recommendations fail to get acted on again. Is that not a reasonable Question?.

Edited by Destined, 28 July 2013 - 08:20 PM.
Quote Clean Up

[N0MAD]

JohanssenJr, on 28 July 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

It's the competition level players that figure out how to break the mechanics, they find the exploits, they figure out how to abuse the system. The rest of the player base is just "monkey see, monkey do."

The typical 732 with a Gauss rifle, 2xPPCs, and an ERPPC was seen on day 1 of the Highlanders release in upper echelon play. My Alt account that is intentionally in the Window Licker Queue so can run *****-n-giggles builds didn't see anything resembling that build until two weeks later.


Most of the Comp level players have been playing and providing feedback since it first became playable, back when when the devs played with their playerbase and actively asked us questions on balance and content.

I have to disagree with that sir. For a long time I and many others that may not be considered competition level group players were running builds very similar to what you described when we first got our Atlai while all the while the competitive groups were running Splat Cats or swarms of buged out Ravens. It seemed (and still does) that many of this group you refer to are the sheep themselfs as in, One player says hey i found this really neat build i stuck 6xSRM6s on my mech and the rest of the group follows leaving the Pug player looking for an answer to the cheese build proliferated by these Competitive groups. These same pug players were also giving their opinions and feedback and i daresay with alot more insight to the game because it was them that took the brunt of the cheese meta game they were forced to face.
So lets not say that its mostly the competitive groups that have all the insights.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

N0MAD, on 28 July 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

I have to disagree with that sir. For a long time I and many others that may not be considered competition level group players were running builds very similar to what you described when we first got our Atlai while all the while the competitive groups were running Splat Cats or swarms of buged out Ravens. It seemed (and still does) that many of this group you refer to are the sheep themselfs as in, One player says hey i found this really neat build i stuck 6xSRM6s on my mech and the rest of the group follows leaving the Pug player looking for an answer to the cheese build proliferated by these Competitive groups. These same pug players were also giving their opinions and feedback and i daresay with alot more insight to the game because it was them that took the brunt of the cheese meta game they were forced to face.
So lets not say that its mostly the competitive groups that have all the insights.

Yeah, they figured out how to break the mechanics. The mechanics at the time moving 86kph, with over 400 points of armor, and a 90 point alpha. Or the the bugged out hitbox and lag shield 3L. It was the comp level players that figured it out, it was also many of the top tier comp level players that gave the most feedback on how to fix it. Remember KaoS? Those guys were usually among the first to break the mechanics. And also among the first to point it out to PGI.

The PUGs getting wafflestomped were too busy ******* and moaning with QQ threads. Now we have ANOTHER bandaid fix.

[Rippthrough]

N0MAD, on 28 July 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

I have to disagree with that sir. For a long time I and many others that may not be considered competition level group players were running builds very similar to what you described when we first got our Atlai while all the while the competitive groups were running Splat Cats or swarms of buged out Ravens. It seemed (and still does) that many of this group you refer to are the sheep themselfs as in, One player says hey i found this really neat build i stuck 6xSRM6s on my mech and the rest of the group follows leaving the Pug player looking for an answer to the cheese build proliferated by these Competitive groups. These same pug players were also giving their opinions and feedback and i daresay with alot more insight to the game because it was them that took the brunt of the cheese meta game they were forced to face.
So lets not say that its mostly the competitive groups that have all the insights.

There were no competitive groups running 8 splatcats or swarms of ravens, even when they were bugged.

Edited by Rippthrough, 28 July 2013 - 06:18 PM.

[Thepotatomasher]

i hope PGI has noticed from the amount of people asking for refunds on their crappy Project Phoenix that people aren't happy.

Fix the content that exists before you add more.

[N0MAD]

JohanssenJr, on 28 July 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

Yeah, they figured out how to break the mechanics. The mechanics at the time moving 86kph, with over 400 points of armor, and a 90 point alpha. Or the the bugged out hitbox and lag shield 3L. It was the comp level players that figured it out, it was also many of the top tier comp level players that gave the most feedback on how to fix it. Remember KaoS? Those guys were usually among the first to break the mechanics. And also among the first to point it out to PGI.

The PUGs getting wafflestomped were too busy ******* and moaning with QQ threads. Now we have ANOTHER bandaid fix.

I will make this my last post regarding your statements as it may be deemed as off topic and quite frankly i dont have the Facts and figures that qualify your statements as correct, facts and figures you obviously have. Alot of people are of the Opinion (i say opinion not fact) that its these groups that hamper the fixing of the meta game for their own purpose and gain (KD ratios/Ego). It disappoints me that there are people out there that have such low opinions of the Pug player group considering i myself consider myself a Pug and yet have 20 years online gaming experience and have beta tested dozens of games including MW3-4 and played MW since its inception.
Anyway, im still looking for an answer to my original question..What is the next step in this crusade to save MWO and what time frame if any has been set on it.
TY.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

N0MAD, on 28 July 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

Anyway, im still looking for an answer to my original question..What is the next step in this crusade to save MWO and what time frame if any has been set on it.
TY.

From PGI? Supposedly UI 2.0 and Community Warfare are supposed to alleviate the major player retention problems.

However, UI 2.0 and CW should have been out already. Instead, we probably won't see it until Launch. Where it will be buggy and lackluster. EDIT: Which is scheduled for 17SEP


HOPEFULLY, they'll use their test servers on Thursdays again and let the community point out problems and put input. Which I'd like to see them actually put the Test Server assets to use more often, otherwise it's a waste of money.

Edited by JohanssenJr, 28 July 2013 - 07:18 PM.

[Hubis]

N0MAD, on 28 July 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

I will make this my last post regarding your statements as it may be deemed as off topic and quite frankly i dont have the Facts and figures that qualify your statements as correct, facts and figures you obviously have. Alot of people are of the Opinion (i say opinion not fact) that its these groups that hamper the fixing of the meta game for their own purpose and gain (KD ratios/Ego). It disappoints me that there are people out there that have such low opinions of the Pug player group considering i myself consider myself a Pug and yet have 20 years online gaming experience and have beta tested dozens of games including MW3-4 and played MW since its inception.

I appreciate you saying it, but I think this is just silly. No one likes a broken game, even those people who take full advantage of it when it exists. During closed beta, goons abused the XL engine + Medium Laser/SRM Awesomes and Hunchbacks more than anyone else; however, while there were a few tears when they passed, everyone agreed that the engine caps were a good move, and opened up a lot more interesting options in builds and mech variety. The same has been true as the meta-game has evolved. Ultimately, good competitive teams feel that the more options they have and the more the outcome depends on decisions they make rather than how well they cheese a specific exploit, the more likely it is that the more skilled team will be victorious. No one likes the current meta because it's just not fun to compete with. Ultimately, we don't play for KD ratio, or to stomp PUGs with sync-drops of broken mechs, we play to have fun. When a problem can be agreed upon by the entire competitive community, it's a solid sign that it's not someone's personal agenda, but rather a core issue with the gameplay itself.

N0MAD, on 28 July 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

Anyway, im still looking for an answer to my original question..What is the next step in this crusade to save MWO and what time frame if any has been set on it.
TY.

There's obviously a lot more "torches and pitchforks" tactics we could go to, but honestly that would be pretty counter-productive, and wouldn't really accomplish anything that rational engagement couldn't do much better. We're not an angry mob; in fact, the whole point of this endeavor is to separate our very specific and concrete issues from the swarm of disconnected angst that PGI has to sift through so that we're seen as something OTHER than just a mob.

Ultimately, the goal here is to create a more open and actual two-way dialogue with PGI about gameplay issues. Right now, Since this event happened on Thursday, I'd say that right now the next step depends on if and how PGI responds this week. Regardless, I believe a follow-up meeting of some sort will be scheduled, where hopefully we can come to some more specific changes we'd like to see or problems we'd like to see PGI comment on. I am sure details will be forthcoming. I know "what now?" is a burning question, but keep in mind it's only been 3 days

[GetinmyBellah]

I'll keep it very short and simple because I think this says enough in itself; I had more fun playing MW:O during the closed beta.

[N0MAD]

Hubis, on 28 July 2013 - 07:25 PM, said:

\ Stuff

Thank you for a reasonable reply. Good luck.

[Nekki Basara]

N0MAD, on 28 July 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

so what is the next step?

The next step, if PGI ignore the feedback entirely and the game does not improve is to stop playing. **** it, SEP at that point.

Hubis lays out the goal nicely, but really the "nuclear deterrent" we have is just not providing targets for the paying customers to shoot at. Why make threats when that's the worst we can do? Far better to just try build up a community consensus and hope PGI will trust in the playerbase to know what the playerbase enjoys. We've been pretty open about getting this out to as many people as possible to be as representative as we can manage, so please turn up next time and add your voice.

[Teferi]

I would like to see PGI to post something on this topic to see if they have read and heard this

[N0MAD]

Nekki Basara, on 28 July 2013 - 08:07 PM, said:

The next step, if PGI ignore the feedback entirely and the game does not improve is to stop playing. **** it, SEP at that point.

Hubis lays out the goal nicely, but really the "nuclear deterrent" we have is just not providing targets for the paying customers to shoot at. Why make threats when that's the worst we can do? Far better to just try build up a community consensus and hope PGI will trust in the playerbase to know what the playerbase enjoys. We've been pretty open about getting this out to as many people as possible to be as representative as we can manage, so please turn up next time and add your voice.

For many of us its way to late, curiosity got the better of me with this topic, I and many of my friends and team mates gave up on it months ago. It wasnt the bugs or time (we waited over 10 years for a new MW) as stated earlier most of us have Alpha and Beta tested many games, so bugs are expected, changes are welcome, however our faith and trust in Paul &Co (PGI) has gone. We (I) are at an age where we do not tolerate been treated/spoken to the way PGI has treated/communicated with us (me), but then we now understand we are not the target demographic. So we did what we had to (in a way forced to) we closed our wallets to PGI and took our money elsewhere to where we are welcome.
This truly saddens me as i am a huge MW fan and yearn to play big stompy Robots. Maybe next time around..
Again good luck with your en devour and Good hunting.

[D34K]

I hope PGI are listening hard to this. I think for a lot of us who have spent a lot of time and money on this game, this is their last chance. Their current stated development course is wholly wrong. This is their redemption with the community, but will they choose to accept it?

[MustrumRidcully]

Werewolf486, on 26 July 2013 - 01:06 PM, said:

Personally I don't appreciate rewriting what a piece of equipment, system, or weapon does in the MW universe. BAP countering ECM as an example, didn't happen ever in MW but PGI decided to just up and change what something in the MW universe does. It's not necessary to rewrite what things do to create balance in MWO. If this is going to be the standard for development of this game then frankly I am worried. Systems should not change role, they should be correct for an online game. Obviously TT rules will not translate over to a PC game or even a console game, so tweaking things to fit a game like this must be done and I understand this completely as a former Alpha Tester in Mechwarrior Living Legends.

If diverging from the table top means better gameplay, I am generally for it, but I think an example like ECM is exactly where diverging wasn't the better choice.
I think it was mostly done the way it was done due to the way targeting works in MW:O and maybe a desire to make ECM very powerful on its own.

[TheMagician]

And maybe because in MWO, if you have a mech in your LoS, you'll see it. It would be ridiculous if a mech was in your LoS but you couldn't see it because of ECM. That would make it a cloaking device.

Here's the history of MWO balance:

Forums: K2 medium pulse cats , small laser hunchies, and medium laser awesomes are OP!
Competitive players: They are only so good because the game lacks damage transfer, and XL engines currently have no drawbacks (if a side torso was destroyed you kept alive).
PGI: Remove energy slots, reduce engine size, increase heat of medium and medium pulse lasers.
Effect:Temporarily reduced effectiveness of hunchback, but still powerful. K2 pulse dies. Awesome dies. Damage transfer intorduced at a later date, previous heat/damage corrections not reverted, game switches to...

Forums: K2 gauss boats are OP! Raven 3Ls are OP!
Competitive players: This game is fun. Gauss boats take a lot of skill, and they aren't OP as AC20 and splat cats are good too. ECM is fine, just wait for BAP.
PGI: Reduce gauss health. Change how ECM works. Add PPC effect for ECM.
Effect: Gauss boats, which were one of the more skilled mechs and created great gameplay is nerfed, and starts to fall from flavor. But its still used for a little bit longer, with people still screaming about how people are 'gaussnoobs'. Ravens are still popular, as ECM is still an effective choice. Game starts to switch in meta.

Forums: AC20 and Splat Cat, and Cents, and everything is OP!
Competitive players: They are good, but there are other options, such as large lasers and gauss.
PGI: Nerfs SRMs, reduces heat of PPCs, adds coolant, gives JumpJets an instant boost.
Effect: Complete metagame switch. Instead of a mix of options avail to players with brawling or range, players find they have to use PPCs to compete. Players start to ton up, as Host State Rewind means that its much easier to hit lights and mediums.

Forums: PPC jumpsniper noobs!
Competitive players: Told you so.
PGI: Has anyone seen the mountain dew? How about some machine gun and flamer tweaks everybody! Yee Haw! Shut up playerbase, you are wrong, everybody loves this game its fine, PPCs are fine, everything is fine, you have 8-man queue problems? That's strange, there's plenty of players, we get more every day.

**3 months later** Yah so... umm.. about your boats. And Jets. And sharks. We are going to umm... well it makes no sense, but we are going to make it so that 2+2 = 4, but 2+2+2 = 10. 8-man queues have problems because uhh.. nobody plays this game anymore because we umm forgot that we had to actually umm.. yah.
Competitive players: *crickets* Umm.. you are going to do what? Just increase PPC heat... and SRM damage.
Effect: PPCs still popular.
PGI (Paul's Great Ignorance): If we increase SRM damage everything will go bad, oh so bad. You don't know how bad.
Players: Increase them!
PGI: Fine, I'll show you how wrong you are!
Effect: This game is the best its been in months!
PGI: You're welcome! Oh and we have a great idea! We are going to increase PPC heat!

Edited by TheMagician, 29 July 2013 - 03:07 AM.