248 replies to this topic

[Roland]

If you want ppc+Gauss to go away, then use and abuse it as much as possible. That is how you get the developers to change it.

[Orzorn]

Khobai, on 27 July 2013 - 09:50 AM, said:

Its not reinventing the wheel at all. Its making MWO more like TT. TT does not have pinpoint alphastrikes, so MWO shouldnt either, specifically because MWO uses damage/armor values derived from TT. If MWO didnt use TT values, that wouldnt be the case, but it does, and as long as it does, pinpoint alphastrikes will not be balanced.

You didn't even have to say more like the TT. Its making it more like other FPS games, which DO have cones of fire. MWO is almost exclusively unique in this aspect, next more arcade style games like Quake 3 Arena, in that weapon are pinpoint.

[Stoicblitzer]

Roland, on 27 July 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

If you want ppc+Gauss to go away, then use and abuse it as much as possible. That is how you get the developers to change it.

we have been for 4+ months. PGI is that bad. as you know.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Stoicblitzer, on 27 July 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

hmmm you make statements with such certainty. i think random is fine in this game for guided missiles. instead of the missiles having a chance to hit every component on a mech, they could do 33/33/33% for LT/CT/RT in addition to buffing the damage and reducing ammo per ton. this would make them more useful than now imo.

something approaching balance is possible. wish PGI wouldn't give up so easily.

This is basically what we had for Streaks before and LRM's now.

[Stoicblitzer]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 27 July 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

This is basically what we had for Streaks before and LRM's now.

brace yourself for estimates...LT/CT/RT......before last patch, what i observed was 5/90/5 for ssrms. for LRMS, now i observe ~10/80/10 and this ratio changes depending on artemis, tag, narc, etc.

[Jman5]

Mystere, on 27 July 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

Shh! The "monkey see, monkey do" types will be all over this if they find out.

It's a nice plan of misinformation though, especially because there are actually three snipers covering each other.

Even with a big host of enemies trying to blow you away, it can work pretty well with the right mech. The Centurion for example is great at moving in fast, bringing high burst damage and is able to take extreme punishment while maintaining it's firepower.

Just before writing this, I played a game on frozen city where I dove into the middle of an enemy team to take out a cataphract. He died, then I died, then our team swept because their whole team was focusing on trying to get the free kill.

[Orzorn]

Jman5, on 27 July 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

Even with a big host of enemies trying to blow you away, it can work pretty well with the right mech. The Centurion for example is great at moving in fast, bringing high burst damage and is able to take extreme punishment while maintaining it's firepower.

Just before writing this, I played a game on frozen city where I dove into the middle of an enemy team to take out a cataphract. He died, then I died, then our team swept because their whole team was focusing on trying to get the free kill.

Centurions are great at that sort of act because their arms protect their sides while they go crazy on their target. Unless you're directly in front or behind them, you'll have a hard time actually dealing damage where it matters.

[Angel of Annihilation]

I've said it once and I will say it again. Scenerios. The game needs Scenerio battles with specfic conditions attached to it such as type of mech, weight class of mech, type of mission, mission goals, etc.

Hell creat scenerios where there are no real victory conditions, rather you get rewarded for what you manage to accomplish durring the mission. Hell you could even make some of these scenerios last 30-45 mins and have repair and reload stations available or incorporate drop ship battles.

The thing of it is, PGI would need to start devoting alot of resources to them because they don't fit in the current maps. You would need NPC convoys, destructable targets, lots of different capture and hold zone (not points), etc. There would also have to be a dozen or more scenerios.

However, I think THIS is what all of us were expecting when we heard about MWO, not some Solaris tournament style gameplay like we have now. Real Battle scenerios please.

[Roland]

Stoicblitzer, on 27 July 2013 - 10:45 AM, said:

we have been for 4+ months. PGI is that bad. as you know.

Ya, but for some good chunk of that time the majority of the playerbase still hadn't figured out the simple truth that every mechwarrior vet knew, which was that big alpha strikes are how you win mechwarrior.

I think as recently as a month or two ago, some guy named Doc Holiday was still babbling about how his mixed range dragon was able to beat high alpha mechs, because.. I dunno.. reasons or something.

Right NOW there's some guy arguing with Vic Morrison in the new player section about how the AC5 is actually better than the Gauss Rifle.

Until it's forced down everyone's throats, there are gonna continue to be folks who deny the fundamental facets of the game, and as long as that's possible, there is a non-trivial chance that some of those folks in denial are gonna be PGI.

I mean, hell, there are still folks who think the LBX is good, because "critical hits!!"

[Monlex]

Viktor Drake, on 27 July 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

I've said it once and I will say it again. Scenerios. The game needs Scenerio battles with specfic conditions attached to it such as type of mech, weight class of mech, type of mission, mission goals, etc.

Hell creat scenerios where there are no real victory conditions, rather you get rewarded for what you manage to accomplish durring the mission. Hell you could even make some of these scenerios last 30-45 mins and have repair and reload stations available or incorporate drop ship battles.

The thing of it is, PGI would need to start devoting alot of resources to them because they don't fit in the current maps. You would need NPC convoys, destructable targets, lots of different capture and hold zone (not points), etc. There would also have to be a dozen or more scenerios.

However, I think THIS is what all of us were expecting when we heard about MWO, not some Solaris tournament style gameplay like we have now. Real Battle scenerios please.

If you look at the mock of UI 2.0 you will see multiple mech per pilot on a drop, maybe they are ahead of you and just dont communicate in fear of the "community". I just wish they stop with the fine tuneing of this or that weapon and get some of the bigger things like UI 2.0 going. I dont think they really can balance the game before they put together the main components that define it anyway.
Perfect aimed long range alpha is one of the biggest problems as statet in countless posts on these forums, so if they intend to balance it first, please get that sortet out.

Edited by Monlex, 27 July 2013 - 02:21 PM.

[Vincent Quatermain]

JohnnyWayne, on 27 July 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

But not seeing how delaying alphas work shows enough. You don't see how the current gameplay has shifted from PPC fest stalkers to more brawling and balanced loadouts.

That is due to the SRM buff, not the alpha heat mechanic. Also, high-Elo play is still broken due to the ERPPC + Gauss combo that you continue to fail to grasp.

JohnnyWayne, on 27 July 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

Just in case you didn't realise yet: PPC and gauss are supposed to be strong weapons.

Oh, I see, the game is "supposed" to be unbalanced. Genius.

Here, let me show you the math:

ERPPC creates 11 heat and weighs 7 tons.
Gauss creates 1 heat and weights 18 tons (w/ 3 tons ammo).

With 20 in-engine DHS, I can fire one ERPPC every five seconds basically forever.
This means that 1 ERPPC + Gauss is superior to dual Gauss, because would you rather do 20-25 damage at long range for 25 tons or 20-30 damage at long range for 36 tons? The answer is obvious.

If I fire two ERPPC, it's more like every 11 seconds between shots, so thus brawling would be harder than sniping. But, I would be doing 30-35 damage at long range, rather than 20-30 for dual Gauss and I'd still have four tons left over to add more DHS. So, let's add those extra DHS. Now the time between shots for continuous fire without gaining heat drops to a mere 8 seconds! So that basically means that in sniping mode, heat doesn't matter AT ALL, and brawling distance it's just a minor nuisance. Counting in the Gauss and movement, I can do three alphas on cooldown and still not shutdown. If I'm a good shot, that means I just did 105 damage to one location in 8 seconds while brawling. The dual Gauss build could only do 90 damage under the same circumstances for the same weight.

The ERPPC is insanely good for the tonnage, even when you account for heat. Even the meager heat nerf that is coming is not enough. The ERPPC needs to have a heat level high enough that one ERPPC needs a bunch of heat sinks to make it equal to a Gauss. Right now, one ERPPC needs no extra heat sinks and two only needs a few.

The ERPPC is straight up the best weapon in MWO. Anyone who fails to see this is a fool, and yes that includes those balance "wizards" at PGI.

[JohnnyWayne]

Vincent Quatermain, on 27 July 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:

That is due to the SRM buff, not the alpha heat mechanic. Also, high-Elo play is still broken due to the ERPPC + Gauss combo that you continue to fail to grasp.

I know, I play there. Thats the reason I even see the problem with the combination of certain weapons. PPC boating loadouts are mostly gone and the srm buff, thats not soo strong as everyone pretends, isn't the reason for that. Its just not so easy anymore and easier builds are better to play.
This is also the reason I approach things as posted before. Classic: Reading 2 posts and then make your own. Btw, I run a mech with 2 ER PPCs before and I dropped them for standard PPCs. They were too hot for reasonable use as DFS. Its not a "small nuisance".

If you make an Equation then add at least 4 tons and 12 slots for DHS. Without that your whole equation is wrong. With that we are at 11 to 18 tons with 50% more / less damage. While the weight difference between this weapons is 60% the damage difference is 50%. Taking the heat heaviness of ERPPCs into account the weapons are about equal.

So much for quantitative attributes of the weapons. Now more or less qualitative: PPC projectiles are faster. Gauss explodes for laughable 20 damage. Gauss rounds shoot way farther than PPC projectiles do. Again about the same the PPC is a little better. All this ignores crit slots that you cant use for FF or ES, what gives the PPC a drawback.

The PPC itself is fine and not the problem, especially with that coming heat nerf. The combination of PPC with low heat high damage weapons is not. Why? because it nullifies each others weaknesses.

Still, gauss and PPC are supposed to be strong weapons. But the combination of both should be weakened.

That ending sentence, shows that you are the "fool". You are the only one that is right and everyone else is dumb, all this because you sit there and think about the reason you just died. It can't be you and the gauss on your mech is definitely fine. So the PPC has to be SO OP MAN!. Your whole "equation" shows that you lack a sense for the whole picture and just set numbers as you see them fit. This has nothing to do with actual gameplay.

Think again. Or better read again...

Edited by JohnnyWayne, 27 July 2013 - 04:43 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

The PPC itself is fine and not the problem, especially with that coming heat nerf. The combination of PPC with low heat high damage weapons is not. Why? because it nullifies each others weaknesses.

Gauss/PPC is perfectly balanced in tabletop. Why? Because they dont both hit the same location every time. The damage gets split between two different locations. Thats what needs to happen in MWO.

When you allow 2PPCs or Gauss/PPC to both hit the same location, they cease being two seperate weapons, and just become one singular super weapon. It fundamentally changes weapon balance in a profoundly negative way.

Edited by Khobai, 27 July 2013 - 04:53 PM.

[JohnnyWayne]

Thats a nice story but this isn't table top, this is Mechwarrior and you have no randomness in your aim based on the games history.

Play Mechwarrior tactics if you want that.

I can't and won't accept it that something that is done nowadays mechanically won't be existing in 3050 anymore. Tell me what you want but this is still more or less a simulation.

You have to think of different ways to balance things and this "everything was better back in my days" mentality won't get you anywhere.

Edited by JohnnyWayne, 27 July 2013 - 05:04 PM.

[Vincent Quatermain]

JohnnyWayne, on 27 July 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

If you make an Equation then add at least 4 tons and 12 slots for DHS. Without that your whole equation is wrong.

WTF? Everyone gets in-engine heat sinks for FREE. There already was a "boating penalty" in the heat mechanic in that the first few hot weapons were effectively lighter than than the next few. You don't need those extra 4 tons until you put on the second ERPPC.

JohnnyWayne, on 27 July 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

With that we are at 11 to 18 tons with 50% more / less damage.

Newsflash: 18/11 = 1.64. 64% > 50%. So you're wrong even if I concede the silly notion that the first ERPPC needs extra heat sinks. Which I don't.

(For 2 ERPPC that's 18 vs. 18 tons for 20 vs. 15 damage. Still better.)

JohnnyWayne, on 27 July 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

PPC projectiles are faster. Gauss explodes for laughable 20 damage.

These things are correct . . . and are things that make PPCs better. You also fail to mention the anti-ECM property that Gauss lacks.

JohnnyWayne, on 27 July 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

Gauss rounds shoot way farther than PPC projectiles do.

Gauss max range = 1980m (3x optimal)
ERPPC max range = 1620m (2x optimal)
How much damage does a Gauss do in that 360m window when it can hit and the ERPPC can't? Not a whole lot (~5 pts), you might as well not even fire. And, for that matter, on how many maps are you even likely to see a target at that range, let alone get a decent shot opportunity? Most sniping occurs far closer than this.

Notice also that the gap between ERPPC and Gauss damage actually narrows in the 660-1200m range. This means that the damage advantage of Gauss is even lower precisely in the range band where these two weapons really shine at their role. This is yet another indicator that ERPPC is relatively better than Gauss.

JohnnyWayne, on 27 July 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

All this ignores crit slots that you cant use for FF or ES, what gives the PPC a drawback.

Well, if you're using FF at all, you fail at math. For ES, pretty much all the PPC/Gauss builds use endo. Also, if you're using an engine larger than 270, which you probably are for any heavy or assault, you get some of those heat sinks without the slot penalty. So, yeah, ERPPC is still really awesome.

JohnnyWayne, on 27 July 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

The PPC itself is fine and not the problem, especially with that coming heat nerf.

The coming heat nerf is not nearly enough. One point is a less than 10% nerf for the ERPPC. Maybe you have to take a fifth heat sink for two ERPPC. Big deal.

JohnnyWayne, on 27 July 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

The combination of PPC with low heat high damage weapons is not. Why? because it nullifies each others weaknesses.

What weaknesses? At what range does the ERPPC have weaknesses?

JohnnyWayne, on 27 July 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

This has nothing to do with actual gameplay.

Pfft. Mr. "Oh-noes-I-don't-have-room-for-ferro" thinks he understands the meta better!

LOL.

[JohnnyWayne]

Vincent Quatermain, on 27 July 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

WTF? Everyone gets in-engine heat sinks for FREE. There already was a "boating penalty" in the heat mechanic in that the first few hot weapons were effectively lighter than than the next few. You don't need those extra 4 tons until you put on the second ERPPC.

Already took that into account, you still need 18 DHS to run a full loadout with 2 ER PPCs. And even then its overheating in real combat all the time.

Vincent Quatermain, on 27 July 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

Newsflash: 18/11 = 1.64. 64% > 50%. So you're wrong even if I concede the silly notion that the first ERPPC needs extra heat sinks. Which I don't.

(For 2 ERPPC that's 18 vs. 18 tons for 20 vs. 15 damage. Still better.)

Newsflash: 11/18*100 = 61.111%. So I'm right, you are just too stupid to see the equation the other way around. Nothing too hard to think of in the first place I guess. You have no idea how to actually USE ER PPCs in a non jump jet sniper way what shows how damaged you are from your experiences with that combination of weapons. Still no crit slots in there. All I said was, that this isn't that much of a difference.

Vincent Quatermain, on 27 July 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

These things are correct . . . and are things that make PPCs better. You also fail to mention the anti-ECM property that Gauss lacks.

ECM? Was ECM ever an issue to you? ECM was always a noob filter. Nowadays I don't even notice it anymore.

Vincent Quatermain, on 27 July 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

Gauss max range = 1980m (3x optimal)
ERPPC max range = 1620m (2x optimal)
How much damage does a Gauss do in that 360m window when it can hit and the ERPPC can't? Not a whole lot (~5 pts), you might as well not even fire. And, for that matter, on how many maps are you even likely to see a target at that range, let alone get a decent shot opportunity? Most sniping occurs far closer than this.

Thats quite true. I play with usual PPCs, so there its a bigger difference.

Vincent Quatermain, on 27 July 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

Notice also that the gap between ERPPC and Gauss damage actually narrows in the 660-1200m range. This means that the damage advantage of Gauss is even lower precisely in the range band where these two weapons really shine at their role. This is yet another indicator that ERPPC is relatively better than Gauss.

Also notice that you can continiusly fire your gauss rifles, while you cant with 2 ER PPCs.

Vincent Quatermain, on 27 July 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

Well, if you're using FF at all, you fail at math. For ES, pretty much all the PPC/Gauss builds use endo. Also, if you're using an engine larger than 270, which you probably are for any heavy or assault, you get some of those heat sinks without the slot penalty. So, yeah, ERPPC is still really awesome.

The coming heat nerf is not nearly enough. One point is a less than 10% nerf for the ERPPC. Maybe you have to take a fifth heat sink for two ERPPC. Big deal.

You wont have crit slots for that. You gave yourself the reason for that. 1 or 2 heatsinks extra are also already in the equation. I have exactly 2 crit slots left together with ES.

Vincent Quatermain, on 27 July 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

What weaknesses? At what range does the ERPPC have weaknesses?

Its heat you can't keep fireing. If you group fire them, your damage is partly spread (as for all weapons). The problem remains the same. Sniper loadouts that use PPCs combined with gauss. THIS is the issue. Nothing else. Not gauss and not PPCs. Nerf the combination.

Vincent Quatermain, on 27 July 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

Pfft. Mr. "Oh-noes-I-don't-have-room-for-ferro" thinks he understands the meta better!

LOL.

This solely shows how ignorant you, are you insulting little *****. Almost no idea what you talking about and not willing to see the game as a whole. Its people like you that flame about the heat penaltys but they certainly made the game better. Ironically all bigger balance changes that were made by PGI were forseen by me in some way. Lrm, ECM, even the heat penaltys and damage for overheating. But you certainly know better because you say so.

I don't think you have anything left to add on this topic. You made your point clear and you are obviously not willing to think again and equally obviously not capable of approaching thoughts of others as shown with the weight equation. You set numbers as you think they fit and then insult anyone that shows you that you forgot about something.

You havn't realised what was my point in the first place. And you never wanted to. You are just some moron that sees something ingame and screams "THATS SO OP NERF NERF NERF" without thinking of its usage or misusage.
On the long run all you want is to destroy a mid/long range direct fire support weapon that can be (and currently IS) used for sniping, because of sniping. You don't want to do something to keep it viable you just want to **** it in the woods and leave it for dead. You don't want the game to evolve to its best state and make as many weapons viable without making them op.
Why? Because it doesn't fit your gamestyle I guess. Lrm don't fit mine, but I still want them to be viable. For a sound and well developeing MWO.

Edited by JohnnyWayne, 27 July 2013 - 05:51 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Thats a nice story but this isn't table top, this is Mechwarrior and you have no randomness in your aim based on the games history.

But it uses numbers from tabletop. And those numbers are balanced around random hit locations. They are not balanced with aiming in mind. That is why mechs feel like theyre made of paper.

[Roland]

JohnnyWayne, on 27 July 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

If you group fire them, your damage is partly spread (as for all weapons).

Pardon me? What are you talking about here?

[Team Leader]

You could quit

[DaZur]

Welcome to MW:O Pillow-Fight edition... If it hurts it must be nerfed.