248 replies to this topic

[Kushko]

Well first off, you can post constructive feedback on the forums, but i think that has mostly been covered (on a side note, nonconstructive whining and moaning has been covered as well ). And besides fixing the actual gameplay mechanics is mostly out of our hands after we let the devs know that there is an issue.

But what we as players can do is start battling the "oh so loved and overly fitted/abused spec" by building our mechs to specifically counter them.

Tired of the 2xPPC+1xGauss snipefest? Find the style boring and do not wish to participate in the FOT*several*M? Build an "in your face" brawler and use the terrain and team coordination to get close to them safely and unleash your devastating short range fury. Or build a fast mech that will dodge all but the most skilled and precise ppc/gauss fire.

I guess you could also "counter" it by using a sniper fit of your own, but tbh that's not really a counter (scissors do not counter scissors after all ) and at least in my opinion severely lacking any kind of fun factor.

Don't get me wrong, i have nothing against people that enjoy long range sniping and i don't even think its really a significant game balance problem. The problem is really about more and more people getting in to the mentality that its the only truly viable way to get an edge over your opponent. And as such, those of us that do not enjoy the style or enjoy 4-6 out of 8 on both teams playing the 2xPPC&1xGAUSS peekaboo game, should show them and others that that there are alternatives and devastating counters to predictable builds.

Thank you for taking the time and reading this, and i hope you will take an extra minute or two and also respond with your opinions.

See you on the battlefield!

Edited by Kushko, 27 July 2013 - 03:29 AM.

[PEEFsmash]

No such "devastating counter" currently exists to a highly skilled sniper team...still. Fast mechs are not at all the answer...you seem to recognize this when you say they can be used against "all but the most skilled and precise." Well, balance really isn't balance if both sides aren't the most skilled and precise. Can't base balance on those who can't aim and position themselves properly.

Maybe the incoming PPC changes, Seismic changes, and even farther-away medium and light maneuverability changes will help fix this. It is POSSIBLE that as early as this next patch, there will be counters to full sniper teams via brawling teams, we will have to see what life is like between top teams on the 8 man queue at that point.

None of us enjoy sniping-only games. Well....actually I think some of us have started to kindof enjoy it in a Stockholm Syndrome kindof way...it's almost the only way this game has let us play for so long that its expected...our minds just feel like this is the way it has to be. But we really do want a change. Teams balanced between sniping support and brawling and scouting should be required. Let's hope the upcoming changes can do it.

[Kushko]

PEEFsmash, on 27 July 2013 - 03:56 AM, said:

No such "devastating counter" currently exists to a highly skilled sniper team...still. Fast mechs are not at all the answer...you seem to recognize this when you say they can be used against "all but the most skilled and precise." Well, balance really isn't balance if both sides aren't the most skilled and precise. Can't base balance on those who can't aim and position themselves properly.

Maybe the incoming PPC changes, Seismic changes, and even farther-away medium and light maneuverability changes will help fix this. It is POSSIBLE that as early as this next patch, there will be counters to full sniper teams via brawling teams, we will have to see what life is like between top teams on the 8 man queue at that point.

None of us enjoy sniping-only games. Well....actually I think some of us have started to kindof enjoy it in a Stockholm Syndrome kindof way...it's almost the only way this game has let us play for so long that its expected...our minds just feel like this is the way it has to be. But we really do want a change. Teams balanced between sniping support and brawling and scouting should be required. Let's hope the upcoming changes can do it.

I agree about there not being a proper devastating close range counter (which isnt to say it cant be done, its just not as viable as it should be) and i think that some weapons should be focused in a more short range&higher damage role. For example pulse lasers could have their range further reduced but their active time reduced and damage increased. Same goes for AC20 and other similar heavy weapons that gravitate (or should) towards the short range (sub 200m) high risk high reward style of gameplay.

If any of you have played Mechcommander gold (i know NGNG has been streaming some gameplay) you will know how scary those short range mech enemies could be...Get a heavy AC hunchback in ur face and you know you are in for a world of hurt. Or a Nova Cat that if let close enough you were just asking for losing one of your mechs to its devestating short range capabilities.

I think the MWO long range balance is actually pretty ok as is, but i would very much like it if the short range would be brought up to par in a sense that if you risk going trough the gauntlet of fire to get your short range fitted heavy/assault mech close to the enemy or if you were skilled enough to go unnoticed/undetected, then you should be rewarded for it by having a significant edge over those who could have killed you from 1200+m away.

As it is now in MWO i never get the "ro row...he's getting too close and something bad is about to happen" feeling. Which is really a shame since range (master of short range, master of long range or jack of all trades medium range) specific fits are one of the really cool thing about Mech games.

Edited by Kushko, 27 July 2013 - 04:26 AM.

[Khobai]

These builds are not going away anytime soon.

From what I read, all PGI is doing on July 30th is making PPCs/ERPPCs generate +1 heat and making them count as the same weapon for the purpose of heat penalties.

That means we will have to wait until at least mid-August now for a plausible PPC fix.

[JohnnyWayne]

Khobai, on 27 July 2013 - 04:14 AM, said:

That means we will have to wait until at least mid-August now for a plausible PPC fix.

Its not like the PPC needs a fix. The gauss needs one in combination with PPCs. Make PPCs disturb gauss rifles if they are shot within 0.5 sec. (Reason: magnetic disturbances and unstable gauss capacitors) Make the weapon jam and give it a chance to explode that increases the more it is used together.

For counterbuilds: I run a dual ac20 jager since all that longrange mechs appeared. Works quite well if you know the terrain. Its really devestating what a skilled player can do with it.^^ (Pre heat nerf 3-5 kills per match, now well same damage but 2-3 less kills; damn those kill stealers!)

[Alistair Winter]

If you use the 2xPPC+Gauss combo, you're making the game boring to play by eliminating variety. It sucks to play this game when everyone's using the same weapons. You're part of the reason that other players are getting fed up and leaving the game.

If you deliberately use other weapons and compensate for their lack of power with your above average skill, you're influencing the statistics to make PGI think that 1) The cheese combo is not as popular as some people think and 2) The cheese combo is not as effective as some people think. "After all, a lot of people are doing fine without the cheesy combo, so why do we need to fix it?"

Damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

To end this post on a more positive note, there's no Santa Claus and everyone you love will die some day.

[Jonny Taco]

Khobai, on 27 July 2013 - 04:14 AM, said:

From what I read, all PGI is doing on July 30th is making PPCs/ERPPCs generate +1 heat and making them count as the same weapon for the purpose of heat penalties.

Sound adjustments for sure however I don't really see an extra +2 heat making 2x erppc and 1x gauss any less effective...

As usual, I'm convinced that pgi's solution to "boating" via the heat scale changes was not very effective to culling the current imbalances. I really don't think we are ever going to see a health meta untill more restrictions are added to the current crit slot system...

Edited by lartfor, 27 July 2013 - 05:25 AM.

[Ralgas]

As long as they link a lot more weapons than they've indicated in the same way as lrm's have been explained, it might be ok.

It'd mean 2 ppc/gauss would suffer the penalty as if it had fired 3 ppc.

[JohnnyWayne]

It makes no sense to let gauss produce a lot of heat... Its a feature of that weapons that it doesn't. You have to do this differently.

It doesn't matter if combined with PPCs or not.

[Ralgas]

JohnnyWayne, on 27 July 2013 - 05:36 AM, said:

It makes no sense to let gauss produce a lot of heat... Its a feature of that weapons that it doesn't. You have to do this differently.

It doesn't matter if combined with PPCs or not.

Even if it means leaving game balance totally broken? As for sense, more heat from a heap of big capacitors combined with other high energy weapons makes a lot more sense than a lot of the bt "magic/future/because".

As for the game mechanic the add on heat uses the hottest weapon fired, no matter the combo. Simplest rule in the system so far....

Edited by Ralgas, 27 July 2013 - 05:43 AM.

[Monlex]

Convergence is the only thing in my opinion that could fix this, no fiddling with heat scale, a faster light or medium Mech or exploding gaus after 3 consecutive uses will solve this.

Btw. Why asking for faster and more flexible lights/med instead of less on the heavy/assault, in my opinion they already (all of them) are too fast considering its 25-100 Tons heavy Mechs we are talking about.

[JohnnyWayne]

Ralgas, on 27 July 2013 - 05:43 AM, said:

Even if it means leaving game balance totally broken? As for sense, more heat from a heap of big capacitors combined with other high energy weapons makes a lot more sense than a lot of the bt "magic/future/because".

As for the game mechanic the add on heat uses the hottest weapon fired, no matter the combo. Simplest rule in the system so far....

It makes? How so? I already brought up a reasonable solution that is not completely ridiculous.^^

Monlex, on 27 July 2013 - 05:47 AM, said:

Btw. Why asking for faster and more flexible lights/med instead of less on the heavy/assault, in my opinion they already (all of them) are too fast considering its 25-100 Tons heavy Mechs we are talking about.

Have you actually played one once? Doesn't read like it. What exactly is that "convergence" fix in you opinion?

Edited by JohnnyWayne, 27 July 2013 - 05:54 AM.

[Randalf Yorgen]

snipers can't hit what they can't see. stay behind cover and gangtackle them when they come looking for you, Rip the legs off them and they will have to either be a poptart or will be very slow at manouvering. (poptarting with a missing leg causes damage to the remaining leg so they wouldn't be able to do it for very long)and slow moving Snipers are LRM Targets. Get your ECM scouts out there using cover and movement, have them light up the target with tag and let your LRM boats eliminate the threat. Role Warfare with in a team environment is a beautiful thing

[JohnnyWayne]

You're pretending that we have ECM scouts, lrm boats and a coordinated team. But we don't. Welcome to the average MWO gameplay.

[Monlex]

JohnnyWayne, on 27 July 2013 - 05:50 AM, said:

Have you actually played one once? Doesn't read like it. What exactly is that "convergence" fix in you opinion?

I played a little over 1000 Matches and have 15 Mechs atm from light to assault.

Convergence: There are many suggestions out there, the basic idea is to not allow all weapons that get fired at once to hit the same spot, what system you want to apply to make this true i think should be left to pgi ,as they should know the limits of the engine and themselfs best.

Edited by Monlex, 27 July 2013 - 06:20 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Sound adjustments for sure however I don't really see an extra +2 heat making 2x erppc and 1x gauss any less effective...

It wont. And if it comes to that people will just go back to dual gauss. But the problem of pinpoint alphastriking is never going to go away until PGI fixes weapon convergence.

PGI keeps trying to cure the symptoms rather than the illness. They are continually nerfing weapons in circles while ignoring the real problem. If you nerf one weapon, players will just move on to the next best weapon that lets them alphastrike, and so on... The only logical solution is to fix convergence so you cant pinpoint all your damage into one location. That fixes the problem for every weapon at once. It also has the added benefit of helping mediums since its the pinpoint alphas that make them so unviable currently.

Edited by Khobai, 27 July 2013 - 06:44 AM.

[Jonny Taco]

Khobai, on 27 July 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

It wont. And if it comes to that people will just go back to dual gauss. But the problem of pinpoint alphastriking is never going to go away unless PGI fixes weapon convergence.

PGI keeps trying to cure the symptoms rather than the illness. They are continually nerfing weapons in circles while ignoring the real problem. If you nerf one weapon, players will just use the next best weapon that lets them alphastrike, and so on... The only way to fix it is to fix convergence so you cant pinpoint all your damage into one location.

No doubt however I'm still strongly in support of hard point size restrictions that will obviously never happen due to workload involved in balancing 40+ variants all over again.

[Khobai]

Hardpoint sized restrictions wont solve the problem of convergence though. Theyll just make it so if you want to alphastrike you have to use certain mechs like the Awesome which can mount 3+ large energy weapons. So really all that would accomplish is limiting player choice even more... as only certain mechs could alpha... and only those mechs would be chosen.

[Nauht]

Dunno what you're complaining about. It's a 35 point alpha max.

There are so many builds that have far greater alphas with far better heat management.

What's next after you've whined this down to the ground? The double GR next on the list? When all weapon combos are nerfed to hell, you gonna stop at the MG?

Just STOP.

[Tolkien]

I have to come into the debate agreeing that convergence is a big big problem, and while these fiddling and convoluted changes to heat generation and weapon combinations etc. to try to address grouped PPCs, it is likely to fail in the medium to long term.

Right now it has already switched from 3+ppc to 2ppc+gauss rifle and brawling is still not an effective counter to this since gauss and ERPPC work down to 0 range just as well as the AC20 does. Additionally SRMs are still spread all over even at point blank range while ERPPC and gauss do pinpoint damage.

In the longer term clan weapons are lighter and smaller so we will see stock clan mechs that can mount 4x ultra AC10's and or 2 gauss rifles with 2ERRPPCs (clan ERPPCs do 50% more damage).

Clan pulse lasers are also *double* the range of inner sphere ones, and do more damage. So that weapon will likely open a new problem with pinpoint near instant damage lasers.

Long story short clan mechs will be able to put ~50% more damage on a pin point in an alpha strike even if they can't use more than 1 or 2 of any individual weapon.

All the while the heat fiddling system they came up with is a real pain to keep track of, will be hard to relate to players in UI2.0 and might even add more frustration to the new player experience.

I firmly believe the game needs some variety of forced damage spreading mechanic such as automatically spreading the impacts of weapons that arrive within 0.5 seconds of another weapon.

Edited by Tolkien, 27 July 2013 - 07:09 AM.