341 replies to this topic

[Zylo]

I am, on 29 July 2013 - 10:16 PM, said:

This is a great idea. MWO definitely needs bigger 4mans. Can't see any unintended negative consequences there...

How'd that go over when open beta began? Must have inspired tremendous community growth.

PGI did it wrong by allowing any size group to match up against pug players.

They could have easily fixed the problem by matching similar size groups against each other but instead chose a system where some players exploited the matchmaker to drop 2x groups onto the same team against at worst a random team and at best 2 separate 4-man groups.


Of course players like you will refuse to see that this could be balanced. I guess you were one of those players who whined and made the problem worse, weren't you?

[I am]

I hadn't even tried mwo yet, nor for another 6 months. Are you one of those people who personally attacks people who point out you're wrong?

This game needs smaller lances, not bigger lances. They can create a separate queue for all you hardcore guys to go play in against other teams.... I am sure you would all use it right?

[Zylo]

I am, on 29 July 2013 - 10:51 PM, said:

I hadn't even tried mwo yet, nor for another 6 months. Are you one of those people who personally attacks people who point out you're wrong?

This game needs smaller lances, not bigger lances. They can create a separate queue for all you hardcore guys to go play in against other teams.... I am sure you would all use it right?

If you hadn't played at that time then you don't know what the **** you're talking about.

For the most part I rarely play unless I'm running 8-man groups. It would be nice if more groups played in 8-man pre-made matches but it can be a pain for some corps to get 8 together, especially if they are small groups like the corp I ran in the past. Still managed to run 8-man groups there, if a corp with fewer than 30 members could do it some of these other groups with hundreds have no excuse other than being ******* SCARED of a little competition.

Edited by Zylo, 29 July 2013 - 10:57 PM.

[I am]

Zylo, on 29 July 2013 - 10:52 PM, said:

If you hadn't played at that time then you don't know what the **** you're talking about.

Am I wrong? Nope. You don't have to follow these forums for too long to learn this games painful development history. I've even seen some vid clips of dragon bowling. God that looked stupid. And if you know what I am talking about, then you know it will cause more pub farming and further kill this community, which is very tiny whether you like to admit it or not. So you know that, and I know that, so why are you even propogating such a terrible idea? WHY?!?! It is inapposite to MWO's longevity. You don't like balanced games and community growth I gather.

[Zylo]

I am, on 29 July 2013 - 11:04 PM, said:

Am I wrong? Nope. You don't have to follow these forums for too long to learn this games painful development history. I've even seen some vid clips of dragon bowling. God that looked stupid. And if you know what I am talking about, then you know it will cause more pub farming and further kill this community, which is very tiny whether you like to admit it or not. So you know that, and I know that, so why are you even propogating such a terrible idea? WHY?!?! It is inapposite to MWO's longevity. You don't like balanced games and community growth I gather.

I've been playing since June 15, 2012. I haven't just seen this in the forums, I've been there IN GAME.

When you have a similar experience you *might* have a valid point. Until then you don't. You're just some alarmist whiner pug who blames your problems in this game on pre-made groups.


Clearly you aren't capable of understanding a balanced variable group size concept so I will explain in simple terms so you may have some hope of grasping the highly complex idea:

1. Group size between 2 and 8 is allowed.
2. Group of 6 players forms in this example and hits launch.
3. Enemy team receives a similar size group of maybe 5, 6 or 7 players. Matchmaker fails to start if none found.
4. Any remaining spots on both teams are filled with lone-wolf players.

Variable size groups would be balanced under such a system. If you still can not see how this would be balanced then there is no hope for you.

Edited by Zylo, 29 July 2013 - 11:17 PM.

[I am]

In an ideal situation, where a lot of player liked mwo and played it, it might work. Here, your pool is too shallow. I don't need to see how imbalanced "4+" mans were, I see how imbalanced 4 mans are.

Let me break it down for you.. accurately.

1. Group of 2-8, cool. Queue up.

2. MM fail to find a group either matching in size or skill.

3. Looking

4. Looking

5. Throws a gaggle of randoms together to face said group.

6. Match ends 8-0. PGI loses half a dozen would be customers.

7. 2-8 man team discusses on ts how elite they are. They celebrate by posting on the forums how pubbies need to learn how to do X,Y, and Z, and liking each other's posts.

Edited by I am, 29 July 2013 - 11:25 PM.

[Zylo]

I am, on 29 July 2013 - 11:24 PM, said:

In an ideal situation, where a lot of player liked mwo and played it, it might work. Here, your pool is too shallow. I don't need to see how imbalanced "4+" mans were, I see how imbalanced 4 mans are.

Let me break it down for you.. accurately.

1. Group of 2-8, cool. Queue up.

2. MM fail to find a group either matching in size or skill.

3. Looking

4. Looking

5. Throws a gaggle of randoms together to face said group.

6. Match ends 8-0. PGI loses half a dozen would be customers.

7. 2-8 man team discusses on ts how elite they are. They celebrate by posting on the forums how pubbies need to learn how to do X,Y, and Z, and liking each other's posts.

You're wrong, you know why?

Players like to group and PGI made a statement in ATD #34 that the majority of players in MWO play in groups - http://mwomercs.com/...evs-34-answers/

ATD #34 said:

Naitsirch: Will there be a no-premade / solo-drop mode or not.

A: We’re looking at it. Currently most MWO players actually play in groups.

If they are placed against a similar size group no matter what size group they make then there will be plenty of groups available. Elo tolerance can be increased if needed.

Many groups avoid 8-man drops for any of the following reasons:
1) Too difficult to find exactly 8 players.
2) Group isn't good enough to win in 8's so the sync-drop exploit with 2x groups of 4.
3) Some claim 8-man matches are too "hardcore" which is BS.

Since these players would only have a single queue there would be no avoiding the 8-man queue. If you drop in a group of 8 under this system your group would be matched against another group of 7 or 8.

The tolerance could be set to allow a larger group to match against multiple smaller pre-made groups in extreme cases (this would encourage more large group play) but should *NEVER* be allowed to match a large pre-made group against a team of full pug players.


I should also point out that your comment about a half dozen players isn't entirely accurate since unskilled lone-wolf players often end up getting stomped by a more organized enemy team which is also made up of lone-wolf players. They would be just as likely to leave over some 8-0 stomp if it was another pug team.

Edited by Zylo, 29 July 2013 - 11:51 PM.

[Wired]

I never would of thought that in 2013 people would be crying about people working together. After over 13 years of online games where communication and coordination has become more pronounced in game play as well. The constant attempts at a few to devolve this game against positive trends is disturbing.

Edited by Wired, 29 July 2013 - 11:57 PM.

[Zylo]

Wired, on 29 July 2013 - 11:50 PM, said:

You know who you have to blame? All of the people who put their efforts into crying for sepereted queues. Why? because it actually didn't fix the mystical problem of premades and instead just punished people who wanted to play with their friends. Do you know what they should of done? Demanded built in voice instead of just having C3 packaged as a third party option.  

But do you know what they said to that?
"No successful multiplayer game has built in voice!"

You know, in 2013. After 13 some odd years of successful multiplayer games with built in voice.

Built in voice would have really helped the game. The pug players would have been given the same option for voice as the pre-made groups and the option would also be there for those of us in pre-made groups to easily coordinate with any lone-wolves on the team by using in-game voice chat.



Slightly unrelated but I think the pre-made groups need to be identified on the post match screen (group icon with a number, WoT style) so those pug players who are whining about evil pre-made groups can finally see that they got stomped 8-0 by another team that was also a full team of pug players.

[DeadlyNerd]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 July 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

Funny I had a good time learning and watching myself get better when I dropped into Beta.

This game is starting to more and more cater to CoD kiddie crowd gameplay wise. Not adapting game modes to said crowd is bad practice and generates these threads.

Edited by DeadlyNerd, 30 July 2013 - 12:55 AM.

[Filth Pig]

Keifomofutu, on 27 July 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

That ship has sailed. Most of the premades pussed out on the real competition. They'd rather engage in easymode stomps against pugs in 4mans than face real competition in the 8-man queue.

I'm gonna say B.S... I'd love for PGI to implement a 4 man queue with only premades or small groups, that way those of us who actually want to participate in groups dont have to hear pugs ***** and complain about how OP teamwork is.

8 man queue's are dead because pgi has disabled quality gameplay for the time being.

What happened here in this match is they got their ***** handed to them by 5 good light pilots. That is all

Edited by Filth Pig, 30 July 2013 - 03:35 AM.

[Thorqemada]

The fact that most Players run in Groups (of what size?) is an indication that MWO does not fare well bcs most new Players would start solo and there is no pre match Lobby to socialize.

Thus a very healthy MWO with a significant New Player influx would be a game with a majority of "Soloers" and a trickle up effect into Group/Unit Play.

But that Statement is old and nobody can tell hard numbers.

Edited by Thorqemada, 30 July 2013 - 03:48 AM.

[Filth Pig]

I would just like to point out that 99.9% of 4 man drops that my unit does are completely casual. Yes we may be on coms, but we are in no way organized other than the occasional pointing out which way the opposing team is going. Most often we are all drunk.

So pugs who complain about how bad it is really have no sympathy from me. You say 'we' are lazy for not wanting to do 8 mans. I say pugs are lazy for not wanting to join a group... so

[ztac]

Well they don't seem to have addressed this problem , and It looks as if even 8 man pre-mades are up vs 8 man pugs .. ,personally I have seen so many flaws now and to think they are putting this up for release in September! The game seems to be driven by the wrong types of people from what I have seen , but the business model is based on a well known tank game that tries to force people to pay real cash , by pitting them up against much higher tier players! As a new returning player I am dismayed to see that the playability is far worse than closed beta ever was , sure lots of shiny new mechs out there , but the game itself seems to have lost it's spark now .

[MaddMaxx]

Tancred Radetzky, on 29 July 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

As a new player, I could care less about voip or any other communications at the moment. The question I have for the more experienced is at what point does your targeting system actually hold on to the target and not jump around like a meth-addicted gerbil? When do your lasers actually hit what they are supposed to? I know it's possible, i've been the :30sec kill from deadly precise gauss rifles, PPCs and large lasers and the LRMs (let me not forget them). When do I get access to the upgrades that allow that sort of precision targeting? Yes, I pilot a Raven because I love it and know that if something hits me I'm dead, but I'm grasping at straws here for some reason as to why I can't do jack with any mech. (targeting seems to be borked for beginners from my limited perspective)

The issue, I think your seeing, is the the swaying of the arms reticule, in relation to the Torso one. Lock your arms to Torso in the options. I had thought it was defaulted but whatever. Other use their Mouse software to reduce the DPI and other motion sensitivity to make the reticules more responsive.

[MaddMaxx]

Namais, on 29 July 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

What on earth are you ranting about?

The OP wants to NOT play with Newbs. Best method to achieve that is to force new players to play so much (100 Matches in training mode) as to become Leet, like the OP, so he can no longer complain/blame his defeats on the poor Newb players, while allowing him to do all that Leet stuff he does.

Mystere, on 29 July 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:

That wouldn't work for people who want to get into the real action asap. So forcing people is probably not a good idea.

Ding Ding, we have a winner. The OP wants the new players to conform to what he wants and screw them. Now what does he expect the resultant response to be?

[Garth Erlam]

I do understand the frustration of losing matches like that, particularly when it seems the other team is organized. That said, in-game VoIP wouldn't stop that in the way it might seem. I've helped teams overcome premades with text chat many times, with warnings of enemy locations "E5, 2", warnings of intent "enemy in tuns" etc.

I want to get this chat back on track - we do plan to have more emphasis on keeping premades with premades, pugs with pugs, etc. That said, this will happen regardless of how much we do that, as some players simply won't/don't listen to warnings, orders, etc. They don't have to, either, though it often makes things worse for them.

The best thing one can do is try to help these people with simply commands/suggestions/leadership. You don't need to grab command or anything, just a simple "5 enemies on ridge" or "I'll get the Jenner" or "I'll cap base, rush when they fall back" etc.

I get it's frustrating, and I hope you understand we're looking at as many ways as we can to alleviate this.

[MaddMaxx]

Namais, on 29 July 2013 - 11:58 PM, said:

You're seeing the end result of the ECM system they put in late last year on a handful of mechs. It negates lockons and missiles etc. Trouble is they didn't go as far as redeveloping the hud around it to any great extent and the effect of the reticule blipping on and off must be baffling for a new user. The only comfort I can offer is that it goes from baffling to simply irritating.

Such issues were raised fairly constantly for around six months after ecm was introduced but apparently to no avail.

ECM has SFA to do with his Reticule jumping around. If you can see the enemy, have range and not all Missiles, you can shoot an ECM Mech just fine and dandy. Nice ECM QQ insert attempt though.

[Homeless Bill]

Garth Erlam, on 30 July 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

That said, in-game VoIP wouldn't stop that in the way it might seem. I've helped teams overcome premades with text chat many times, with warnings of enemy locations "E5, 2", warnings of intent "enemy in tuns" etc.

I want to get this chat back on track - we do plan to have more emphasis on keeping premades with premades, pugs with pugs, etc. That said, this will happen regardless of how much we do that, as some players simply won't/don't listen to warnings, orders, etc.

It's true that herding PUGs is just rolling the dice, and voice wouldn't change that. It's also true that it's usually possible to save an entire match just by saying, "Stop splitting up and go Kappa," in chat.

That said, the lack of voice makes it incredibly hard to coordinate efficiently. Chat takes a lot of effort (particularly when you're in combat), and it doesn't let you do what makes the difference between PUGs and pre-mades: calling targets. Focus fire is the single most important aspect of combat in this game, and it's something PUGs just don't have access to.

It's great to hear you're looking into ways to sort out pre-mades vs PUGs, but I sincerely hope you guys are working on some form of target designation or something as a stop-gap.

[Goose]

Garth Erlam, on 30 July 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

… we do plan to have more emphasis on keeping premades with premades, pugs with pugs, etc. …

While I'm pleased something is being done, I'd hoped it wouldn't be a work-around for match-makers shortcomings.

Thanks, all the same …