9 replies to this topic

[Tarl Cabot]

Of all the games dealing with the Battletech universe, until MWO there were only 3 others that was MPBT only, EGA/Solaris/3025. Below is the reference chart for Solaris version (easier to use instead of pulling out backup CD )

http://www.colokid.c...S%20FM100-1.htm

Notice the delay on PPC (10 secs) and AC20 (7.5 secs). Gauss Rifle would like be around that delay.

Others have posted about brawling and long range fire. If, and that is if, MWO used close to the same delays for GR and ERPPC/PPC, AC20, etc, it may alter how people do configure their mechs, especially if their long range weapons put them at severe risk if/when things do get close. Right now the only real risk is the heat.

Even though there are other contributing factors (out of line heat scale, convergence), armor/internal structure points doubled up increase mech life, why the need to almost half the weapon delays used from the MPBT games? Even the MW4 series weapon delays for PPC/ERPPC/GR were longer than MWO.

Appendix VI: Weapons Quick Reference - MultiPlayer BattleTech Weapon Quick Reference

 
Ballistic Weapons Delay/Heat
Autocannon/2.........2.5.....1
Autocannon/5.........5.0	   1
Autocannon/10.......5.0	   3
Autocannon/20.......7.5	   7
Machine Gun..........2.5	   0
Energy Weapons
Flamer...................5.0	   3
Laser(Large)...........7.5	   8
Laser(Medium........5.0	   3
Laser(Small)..........5.0	   1
PPC.....................10.0	10
Missile Weapons *
LRM-5...................7.5	   2
LRM-10.................7.5	   4
LRM-15.................7.5	   5
LRM-20.................7.5	   6
SRM-2...............5.0	   2
SRM-4...............5.0	   3
SRM-6...............5.0	   4

---------------------------------------------------------------

MW4 resources.

http://www.sarna.net..._%28Resource%29

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 27 July 2013 - 07:25 PM.

[Craeshen]

Looking @ the mw4 chart now I know why ppc's felt more balanced look @ that heat large laser's generated less heat and ppc's required more tonnage to fit making them an actual scarifice to fit.

Edited by Craeshen, 27 July 2013 - 08:40 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

It does make one wonder why PGI did not stay as close to the values, delay-wise, for the harder hitting weapons? Those values were tweaked for each game but also falls along the line of the Solaris box rules (rounds were in 2.5 secs, 1/4 of the standard BT 10sec round).

The times between long range fire would increase for those who were able to fire several alphas before moving/seeking cover while also crippling them when things got close and hairy.

Anyone can use DPS layout but it should be done in a tier/rank system, short/medium/long range. Grouping them all as one then adjusting heat/delay-recycle times has accounted for some of the troubles being seen.

Do GR/PPC/Ac20 groups need to be at 10 secs? Not necessarily but for those games the minimum recycle time was 6 seconds to a max of 10 seconds.

Would it help lean people, in pugs generally, to run with a more balanced load? Likely, once the experience has filtered through, while also learning that like with LRM boats it is best to close quickly (or kill the light spotters and tease them to fire their loads then duck back into cover). The exceptions will be the team players as they will be set with overlapping weapon coverage and work as a unit instead of as individuals.

[Ecrof]

Weapon fire way to fast now even doubling the time it take all weapons to fire would be ok with me. I suppose just increasing armor would leave all the kids and devs with there supper fast pew pew pew.

[Sundervine]

I have mentioned this a few times myself. However you are going to get a lot of people who say thing like " TT rules are not compatable with real time simulation" or some such. The thing is, when you get down to ALL the TT rules they can easily be translated to real time combat without much change.
Of course you will get lots of people saying things like, "They tried it in Friends and Family and the matches were just to quick and short ranged." Thing is, since I was in closed beta, at that time which was AFTER F&F the PPC was to slow, the shot I mean, and the Guass rifle was not even in at the time. So of course long range sniping was not in the game at the time. Fast mechs also had a huge advantage at the time because Host state rewind was not in and all lights had a lag shield. Also that ment anything resembling a balistic medium to long range shot would miss almost every time. This gave an even bigger advantage to laser boating close range mechs. Add that to LRMs still do not work right, streaks not working right now or back then and you start to see why things worked the way they did in F&F.
Thus when you read or hear anyone say TT values have been tried remember a few things:
1. They were tried in a very early not fully implemented version that was heavily biased to laser weapons, and faster mechs.
2. Not all the weapons were implemented and none of them were fully implemented with host state rewind.
3. The TT reload values have never been tried as far as I know.
4. Heat has a bonus 30 points that TT did not have. Thus it plays a smaller part than it should.

Thing is, even grouping was thought about in TT in 1991. It was the ITC i believe. They only had three though, and they were A,B, and C. It allowed pilots to fire more than one weapon at a time, which of course is what grouping is. Wow TT did not thing of everything way back in 1991 that they would need in a Real time game.

Of course you will have poeple say well the TT version made machine guns way over powered because they did 8 damage in 10 seconds. What they do not think about is that it was the same damage in 10 seconds as a large laser in less time, or less than a medium laser in the same time. They generated no heat. As everyone can see though that was a tradeoff for No range. They had the same range as a small laser. One did 6 damage and 4 heat in 10 seconds, the other 8 damage and no heat, one had unlimited ammo, which was its tradeoff, the other had ammo, which was an ungodly amount mind you but it also was an ungodly amount of damage on ammo explosion. What most dont know is if, a MG's ammo detonated, well your mech is toast. No mech not even an atlas could take the 400 damage and not be severly hurt. yeah you fired some. Not more than 50 rounds, so 300 damage. rarely did it happen mind you because it only took one ton, but it was a risk, for 2 damage in 10 seconds and 4 less heat. Also dont forget that that one ton of ammo also could be one heat sink meaning only 3 heat, until you start adding more mgs, then the small laser really starts to loose out dps wise. but thats for another story. The MG problem is not really a problem, since as everyone now knows, PPC, and Guass are king.

Anyway I am glad someone else knows more of the rules than rumor, or quick scanning, very few seem to.

I have mentioned this a few times myself. However you are going to get a lot of people who say thing like " TT rules are not compatable with real time simulation" or some such. The thing is, when you get down to ALL the TT rules they can easily be translated to real time combat without much change.

Of course you will get lots of people saying things like, "They tried it in Friends and Family and the matches were just to quick and short ranged." Thing is, since I was in closed beta, at that time which was AFTER F&F the PPC was to slow, the shot I mean, and the Guass rifle was not even in at the time. So of course long range sniping was not in the game at the time. Fast mechs also had a huge advantage at the time because Host state rewind was not in and all lights had a lag shield. Also that ment anything resembling a balistic medium to long range shot would miss almost every time. This gave an even bigger advantage to laser boating close range mechs. Add that to LRMs still do not work right, streaks not working right now or back then and you start to see why things worked the way they did in F&F.
Thus when you read or hear anyone say TT values have been tried remember a few things:
1. They were tried in a very early not fully implemented version that was heavily biased to laser weapons, and faster mechs.
2. Not all the weapons were implemented and none of them were fully implemented with host state rewind.
3. The TT reload values have never been tried as far as I know.
4. Heat has a bonus 30 points that TT did not have. Thus it plays a smaller part than it should.

Thing is, even grouping was thought about in TT in 1991. It was the ITC i believe. They only had three though, and they were A,B, and C. It allowed pilots to fire more than one weapon at a time, which of course is what grouping is. Wow TT did not thing of everything way back in 1991 that they would need in a Real time game.

--------- The following is sort of just a rant so ignor it if you are just looking for a quick read--------------------------------------------
Of course you will have poeple say well the TT version made machine guns way over powered because they did 8 damage in 10 seconds. What they do not think about is that it was the same damage in 10 seconds as a large laser in less time, or less than a medium laser in the same time. They generated no heat. As everyone can see though that was a tradeoff for No range. They had the same range as a small laser. One did 6 damage and 4 heat in 10 seconds, the other 8 damage and no heat, one had unlimited ammo, which was its tradeoff, the other had ammo, which was an ungodly amount mind you but it also was an ungodly amount of damage on ammo explosion. What most dont know is if, a MG's ammo detonated, well your mech is toast. No mech not even an atlas could take the 400 damage and not be severly hurt. yeah you fired some. Not more than 50 rounds, so 300 damage. rarely did it happen mind you because it only took one ton, but it was a risk, for 2 damage in 10 seconds and 4 less heat. Also dont forget that that one ton of ammo also could be one heat sink meaning only 3 heat, until you start adding more mgs, then the small laser really starts to loose out dps wise. but thats for another story. The MG problem is not really a problem, since as everyone now knows, PPC, and Guass are king.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyway I am glad someone else knows more of the rules than rumor, or quick scanning, very few seem to.

[Sundervine]

I have mentioned this a few times myself. However you are going to get a lot of people who say thing like " TT rules are not compatable with real time simulation" or some such. The thing is, when you get down to ALL the TT rules they can easily be translated to real time combat without much change.

Of course you will get lots of people saying things like, "They tried it in Friends and Family and the matches were just to quick and short ranged." Thing is, since I was in closed beta, at that time which was AFTER F&F the PPC was to slow, the shot I mean, and the Guass rifle was not even in at the time. So of course long range sniping was not in the game at the time. Fast mechs also had a huge advantage at the time because Host state rewind was not in and all lights had a lag shield. Also that ment anything resembling a balistic medium to long range shot would miss almost every time. This gave an even bigger advantage to laser boating close range mechs. Add that to LRMs still do not work right, streaks not working right now or back then and you start to see why things worked the way they did in F&F.
Thus when you read or hear anyone say TT values have been tried remember a few things:
1. They were tried in a very early not fully implemented version that was heavily biased to laser weapons, and faster mechs.
2. Not all the weapons were implemented and none of them were fully implemented with host state rewind.
3. The TT reload values have never been tried as far as I know.
4. Heat has a bonus 30 points that TT did not have. Thus it plays a smaller part than it should.

Thing is, even grouping was thought about in TT in 1991. It was the ITC i believe. They only had three though, and they were A,B, and C. It allowed pilots to fire more than one weapon at a time, which of course is what grouping is. Wow TT did not thing of everything way back in 1991 that they would need in a Real time game.

--------- The following is sort of just a rant so ignor it if you are just looking for a quick read--------------------------------------------
Of course you will have poeple say well the TT version made machine guns way over powered because they did 8 damage in 10 seconds. What they do not think about is that it was the same damage in 10 seconds as a large laser in less time, or less than a medium laser in the same time. They generated no heat. As everyone can see though that was a tradeoff for No range. They had the same range as a small laser. One did 6 damage and 4 heat in 10 seconds, the other 8 damage and no heat, one had unlimited ammo, which was its tradeoff, the other had ammo, which was an ungodly amount mind you but it also was an ungodly amount of damage on ammo explosion. What most dont know is if, a MG's ammo detonated, well your mech is toast. No mech not even an atlas could take the 400 damage and not be severly hurt. yeah you fired some. Not more than 50 rounds, so 300 damage. rarely did it happen mind you because it only took one ton, but it was a risk, for 2 damage in 10 seconds and 4 less heat. Also dont forget that that one ton of ammo also could be one heat sink meaning only 3 heat, until you start adding more mgs, then the small laser really starts to loose out dps wise. but thats for another story. The MG problem is not really a problem, since as everyone now knows, PPC, and Guass are king.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyway I am glad someone else knows more of the rules than rumor, or quick scanning, very few seem to.

[Tarl Cabot]

I was not looking at the TT values since everything ran in 10 sec increments but point(s) taken about the Friends/Family settings.

Though I was looking more at the previous MPBT/MW games recycle/delays times which were closer to the Solaris ruleset. And how PGI differ from those recycle timers. In essence, for a long range platform, creating a situation where a player does not need to bring a mix range of weapons when carrying long range, direct fire weapons.

Will this game be complete balanced across the board, ever? No, way too many variables. It comes down to starting off with a solid foundation then balancing in tiers. It also means setting up pros/cons for each set of systems.

Lets take recycle times for long range or hard hitting weapons. They are:

MWO = 0.5 (AC2), 3.25 (LL/ERL), 4 (PPCs/GR/AC20), 3.25-4.75 (LRMs).

MW4 = 1.0 (different AC2), , 6 (AC20/LRMs), 8 (GR/ERLL/PPCs)

MPBT = 1.5 (AC2), 7.5 (LL/AC20/LRM), 10.0 (PPC)

The above is just a sample. From looking in, PGI has made long range and/or hard hitting weapons recycle times usable in a brawling environment. As mentioned in the previous post, MWO rarely saw long range encounters during its F/F settings.

Also in broadcasts they have said that mechs are not living long enough. Add a scaling, adjustable Heat Scale based on the number/type of HS, with very little negative aspects to it (now there is the damage to mech when heat shutdown), more mechs on the battlefield and faster weapon recycle times, not just the long range/hard hitting weapons but also the medium/short range weapons, will lead to mechs will die faster.

Do not forget the Pilot Tree, Fast Fire which increases the cooldown rate by 5%. 5% is still 5%, even if it is small change.

And they will continue to die faster as the MWO community experience increases, whether it is in a team or a pug environment. Armor points have been doubled for the mechs (in addition, so was the internal structure). Heat Scale penalties as the heat increases would play a part, as would recycle time adjustments. The other would be convergence for group fire but that is a devil in a different dress.

[El Bandito]

Bump for this vital info.

[Sprouticus]

If you set these values anywhere close to the values listed, any ranged combat would disappear.


@ 10s, a light mech can move roughly 400m. A fast heavy or Victor can move 250-ish. That is WITHOUT cover . With the small maps in MWO (especially in the early beta), you could cover the entire map in 2, maybe 3 shots in a light mech.


The simple fact is you would end up with both sides rushing and the LR weapons (including ones that work well right now like the LL and LRM (and to a lesser extent the AC2) being nerfed into oblivion.



I am not saying I would not mind seeing PPC/gauss bumped 0.5s or even 1.0s. But those people who say that TT numbers don't always work in a sim say it for a reason. Heck, look at LRM's as a prime example. Or the inclusion of range beyond max. Or a hundred other examples I could give where it just makes more sense.

[Tarl Cabot]

(nods) light mechs and some medium mechs getting close enough to engage. Good. It would also mean that long range weapons will not be the only weapons being carried by any/everyone, mechs will need to have back up weapons to take care of the light mechs. Such scenarios which will generally help to reduce the number of long range weapons being carried, convergence or no convergence.

Now, are there issues with hit detection on some light mechs? Yes, but we should not fall in the last trap when changes were made to PPCs the 1st time due to hit detection issues. And as an assault pilot (I do bring a mix of weapons) I would not have an issue how many times I am able to fire on a light as it closes, likely due to having to duck behind cover to avoid the weapons of his teammates. What will happen is that I will have weapons equipped to handle it without having to rely entirely on my long range weapons. Some people scratch their heads at those who are equipped with only LRMs (wait for Clan LRMS), whereas every other long range/hard hitting weapons recycle fast enough

Again, we are back to the issue. The recent heat "trick" is one way for PGI to prevent firing everything at one time, it does not stop them from carrying hard hitting weapons that are effectively used at any range, both as snipers and as brawling weapons.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 29 July 2013 - 08:05 PM.