1
That would mean installing more heat sinks would only dissipate heat faster. If I am understanding the developer's concerns from AtD43 correctly, builds would appear that would basically hit 29 heat with each volley and have enough HS to dissipate back to 0 by the time the weapons recycled. In my opinion, this is smart building and not exploiting but I was curious as to what builds you think would become dominant in this environment.
Also I am not sure what the current rate of hit dissipation is, I'd actually like to know!
Shout out to Koniving for getting me thinking along these lines.
Spoiler
Koniving, on 28 July 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:
MW2 had a heat scale of 40 (our lowest possible heat scale as you called it) and lower heat values.
And MW4 had a heat scale of 60 according to the wiki site I found (I personally haven't played it but I know it suffered from extremely poor balancing. Now according to another wiki on MekTek which came out later, this was changed to a fixed value per mech chassis. For example a Marauder had a higher maximum heat capacity before shutdown than a Commando. On MWO you can exceed MW4's 60 heat scale / capacity / threshold with 22 DHS + 2x Heat Containment for 20% more). MW4 also had the largest balancing issues of any mechwarrior game to date before MWO, and lower heat values for many weapons.
Even MechAssault -- which I consider to be the worst mechwarrior series in history -- had better balancing when it came to heat mattering. Not so much on single player MA2, but we're really pushing that limit.
Regardless, even MW4's heat capacity did not rise with more heatsinks. So at least they got somethingright for all they did wrong.
If capacity were to change, it should only change with engine size, but then this only rewards those who carry the biggest engine possible, which means we would have a max XL engine meta. That's not much better than what we have now.
-----------
Now, to David of PGI I will say this:
These are the mentalities of a rising threshold with slower heat dissipation, versus a fixed threshold with faster heat dissipation.
Please note BOTH mentalities are set before and without the heat penalty system.
The Mentality of MWO's rising threshold, slower heat dissipation (0.14 per DHS) :
The mentality of a fixed, very low threshold but slightly higher dissipation (0.2 per DHS) :
And MW4 had a heat scale of 60 according to the wiki site I found (I personally haven't played it but I know it suffered from extremely poor balancing. Now according to another wiki on MekTek which came out later, this was changed to a fixed value per mech chassis. For example a Marauder had a higher maximum heat capacity before shutdown than a Commando. On MWO you can exceed MW4's 60 heat scale / capacity / threshold with 22 DHS + 2x Heat Containment for 20% more). MW4 also had the largest balancing issues of any mechwarrior game to date before MWO, and lower heat values for many weapons.
Even MechAssault -- which I consider to be the worst mechwarrior series in history -- had better balancing when it came to heat mattering. Not so much on single player MA2, but we're really pushing that limit.
Regardless, even MW4's heat capacity did not rise with more heatsinks. So at least they got somethingright for all they did wrong.
If capacity were to change, it should only change with engine size, but then this only rewards those who carry the biggest engine possible, which means we would have a max XL engine meta. That's not much better than what we have now.
-----------
Now, to David of PGI I will say this:
These are the mentalities of a rising threshold with slower heat dissipation, versus a fixed threshold with faster heat dissipation.
Please note BOTH mentalities are set before and without the heat penalty system.
The Mentality of MWO's rising threshold, slower heat dissipation (0.14 per DHS) :
Spoiler
So the DHS is advantageous, huh? Let's see... the first 10 in a 250 engine gives me 2.0 cooling, 2.0 capacity increase, with each one after giving me 1.4 and 1.4? Wow, that's a lot of math.. What is my capacity going to be? How much can I alpha strike? Ow, my head hurts...
So wait, if I carry 30 or more SHS I'll have faster cooling than DHS, but I'll never have the same heat capacity? How does that make sense? Oh god, look at all the charts I have to study!
This is complicated... is this game for me?
I must carry the biggest guns I possibly can to have a chance.
I can fire a lot of powerful weapons at the same time.
We must double the double armor in order for anything smaller than 65 tons to have a chance in combat.
All Jenners, Spiders, etc. must carry at least 2 PPCs to be remotely useful.
The only useful weapon for the Raven 4x is an AC/20.
I'm in an assault mech because it is the only thing that can carry enough heatsinks to have a decent heat capacity/limit/threshold/scale.
I need to make my shots count, I can fire my 6 PPCs twice and shutdown. That's 120 damage I can lay down the line in 8 seconds. If I wait 2 seconds I can safely fire it again for a total of 180 damage.
The only way to fight is long range.
I don't need friends to play.
I don't need to work together with anyone. I just need 6 PPCs.
If something gets close to me, who cares? That just means it will die faster.
The only way LRMs will be useful is if I can fire 90 missiles in a single volley. Anything less is a waste of a player.
The only way SRMs will be useful is if I have 3 to 6 SRM-6s.
There is no reason to use an SRM-2. I mean seriously, lower heat? Pfft! I can do 12 PPCs back to back when the recycle time was 2 or 3 seconds per volley!
Only a corpse runs anything less than a 40 damage alpha strike.
Anything less than 10 damage per shot must be boated in excessive amounts to remotely have a chance.
With 2 AC/2s and 2 AC/5s, I can pump out over 200 damage before I have to worry about heat.
The only reason to run a light is speed. They die in a single shot.
There is no reason to run a medium.
Why would I ever need to carry fewer guns than I can fit in?
I can fire lots of lasers all I want to. But they are worthless because I have no reason to focus my shots on specific body parts or to aim, since I can fire a lot all over the place due to a high heat limit!
I must carry a 250 engine or I will get completely screwed out of heat capacity.
Locusts and other 20 ton mechs that can't mount a 250 engine are SCREWED out of heat capacity, since they can't enjoy the full 2.0 capacity increase of 10 DHS mounted in 250 engine.
A commando must have a 200 engine to stand a chance.
I am punished for carrying smaller, weaker weapons.
I am rewarded for carrying the biggest, most powerful weapons I can carry.
If I carry too many PPCs I only run the risk of overheating once every 12 seconds.
With the new heat penalty system, I am punished for carrying most weapons, and punished for using useless weapons like the SRM-2.
I can never overheat with 4 small lasers. Even though dissipation is slow, my threshold is so high I will never, ever reach it. I can fire them forever at the same time.
I am punished for a low DPS, low HPS build, because everyone else can do between 35 and 60 damage per shot and I can never get in range to fight.
The deciding factor of a brawl is who has the biggest alpha strike.
A medium mech with small lasers and MGs has no chance against an assault.
Medium mechs hunting in packs of 2 to 4 have a modest chance if they are constantly mobile and carry high alpha weaponry, but will die rapidly to instant kill alpha strikes.
Fighting in packs while a good idea, is not necessary. A single stalker with 2 ER PPCs and 5 streaks can level the entire playing field solo, and will never overheat.
Heat management consists of "I alpha strike a lot as it's super effective and isn't too hard on heat. But maybe I do it a little too often and I am too hot? Alpha strike less often. Or maybe get more damage per alpha strike, have you considered more PPCs?
"I'm an assault, that medium mech following me around is a nuisance. Get an assault! Learn how to play noob. You're in something worthless! You want to escort me? Bring another assault."
After knockdowns return: "Crap, I got knocked down. That's it, I'm -- wow one shot? Seriously? Screw this I quit! Maybe it'll be better next patch."
PGI not long from now: "We should double the double armor, and double the double internal structure too." Some months later. "...Maybe we should try a heat penalty system that punishes exploits of our current heat penalty system?" "Or we could double the doubled double armor."
So the DHS is advantageous, huh? Let's see... the first 10 in a 250 engine gives me 2.0 cooling, 2.0 capacity increase, with each one after giving me 1.4 and 1.4? Wow, that's a lot of math.. What is my capacity going to be? How much can I alpha strike? Ow, my head hurts...
So wait, if I carry 30 or more SHS I'll have faster cooling than DHS, but I'll never have the same heat capacity? How does that make sense? Oh god, look at all the charts I have to study!
This is complicated... is this game for me?
I must carry the biggest guns I possibly can to have a chance.
I can fire a lot of powerful weapons at the same time.
We must double the double armor in order for anything smaller than 65 tons to have a chance in combat.
All Jenners, Spiders, etc. must carry at least 2 PPCs to be remotely useful.
The only useful weapon for the Raven 4x is an AC/20.
I'm in an assault mech because it is the only thing that can carry enough heatsinks to have a decent heat capacity/limit/threshold/scale.
I need to make my shots count, I can fire my 6 PPCs twice and shutdown. That's 120 damage I can lay down the line in 8 seconds. If I wait 2 seconds I can safely fire it again for a total of 180 damage.
The only way to fight is long range.
I don't need friends to play.
I don't need to work together with anyone. I just need 6 PPCs.
If something gets close to me, who cares? That just means it will die faster.
The only way LRMs will be useful is if I can fire 90 missiles in a single volley. Anything less is a waste of a player.
The only way SRMs will be useful is if I have 3 to 6 SRM-6s.
There is no reason to use an SRM-2. I mean seriously, lower heat? Pfft! I can do 12 PPCs back to back when the recycle time was 2 or 3 seconds per volley!
Only a corpse runs anything less than a 40 damage alpha strike.
Anything less than 10 damage per shot must be boated in excessive amounts to remotely have a chance.
With 2 AC/2s and 2 AC/5s, I can pump out over 200 damage before I have to worry about heat.
The only reason to run a light is speed. They die in a single shot.
There is no reason to run a medium.
Why would I ever need to carry fewer guns than I can fit in?
I can fire lots of lasers all I want to. But they are worthless because I have no reason to focus my shots on specific body parts or to aim, since I can fire a lot all over the place due to a high heat limit!
I must carry a 250 engine or I will get completely screwed out of heat capacity.
Locusts and other 20 ton mechs that can't mount a 250 engine are SCREWED out of heat capacity, since they can't enjoy the full 2.0 capacity increase of 10 DHS mounted in 250 engine.
A commando must have a 200 engine to stand a chance.
I am punished for carrying smaller, weaker weapons.
I am rewarded for carrying the biggest, most powerful weapons I can carry.
If I carry too many PPCs I only run the risk of overheating once every 12 seconds.
With the new heat penalty system, I am punished for carrying most weapons, and punished for using useless weapons like the SRM-2.
I can never overheat with 4 small lasers. Even though dissipation is slow, my threshold is so high I will never, ever reach it. I can fire them forever at the same time.
I am punished for a low DPS, low HPS build, because everyone else can do between 35 and 60 damage per shot and I can never get in range to fight.
The deciding factor of a brawl is who has the biggest alpha strike.
A medium mech with small lasers and MGs has no chance against an assault.
Medium mechs hunting in packs of 2 to 4 have a modest chance if they are constantly mobile and carry high alpha weaponry, but will die rapidly to instant kill alpha strikes.
Fighting in packs while a good idea, is not necessary. A single stalker with 2 ER PPCs and 5 streaks can level the entire playing field solo, and will never overheat.
Heat management consists of "I alpha strike a lot as it's super effective and isn't too hard on heat. But maybe I do it a little too often and I am too hot? Alpha strike less often. Or maybe get more damage per alpha strike, have you considered more PPCs?
"I'm an assault, that medium mech following me around is a nuisance. Get an assault! Learn how to play noob. You're in something worthless! You want to escort me? Bring another assault."
After knockdowns return: "Crap, I got knocked down. That's it, I'm -- wow one shot? Seriously? Screw this I quit! Maybe it'll be better next patch."
PGI not long from now: "We should double the double armor, and double the double internal structure too." Some months later. "...Maybe we should try a heat penalty system that punishes exploits of our current heat penalty system?" "Or we could double the doubled double armor."
The mentality of a fixed, very low threshold but slightly higher dissipation (0.2 per DHS) :
Spoiler
No matter how many heatsinks I have, the maximum heat I can generate at once without shutting down is 29? Because if I hit 30 I shut down, right? Wow, I never played BT, TT, or MW before but that's easy to understand!
So the only difference between DHS and SHS is that DHS cools me twice as fast for less the same weight but takes up more slots? That's easy enough to understand.
Wait, if I wanted to save
I could carry 20 SHS and have the same benefits of 10 DHS? Awesome! That will help me save up for my second mech, I'll call him Johnny #5!
That means if I needed more slots for the weapons I want, I could just use single heatsinks instead? I have weight to spare, let's try that!
So with SHS, if I stand in water and have SHS in my feet, they turn into DHS so long as I'm in the water? That's a cool mechanic! I like it!
The maximum possible alpha strike I can do without shutting down is 2 Gauss + 1 ER PPC for 55. 2 Gauss + 2 ER PPC is too risky. 1 Gauss + 2 ER PPC is too risky.
Running 2 gauss + 1 ER PPC, I run the risk of being extremely fragile and I must carry an XL engine. I will be easy to take out if someone gets close to me. I need friends to escort me. (Teamwork!)
With current heat values of ER PPCs (11), 3 of them is an instant shutdown. That's 30 damage and accomplishes the same goal of the penalty system, without the penalty system.
The 2 ER PPC and 2 PPC exploit of the penalty system would also lead to an instant shutdown and possibly moderate to severe self-inflicted heat damage.
The maximum number of LRMs I can fire at the same time are 5 LRM-20s. But, that is impossible to carry. Even with 2 LRM-15s I will run the risk of shutting down eventually as I will reach my threshold faster even with 2 times cooling than I would with MWO's current system.
Lasers are a good idea. But I have to use them sparingly since their heat is high. If I space out my shots and really make them count, I will improve both my gameplay and my heat management.
If I carry fewer weapons than I can fit, I'll be more heat efficient.
It is very risky to fire 4 large lasers at the same time. If I do I'll have to wait several seconds before I can safely fire them again. I better chainfire them.
If I fire 6 medium lasers at the same time I will be at 24 out of 30 heat. If I fire 7 medium lasers I will be at 28 out of 30 heat. This is risky, maybe it would be better to chainfire them.
Balancing might actually lower the heat of medium lasers back to canonical values.
With 2 AC/2s and 2 AC/5s I can fire non-stop for up to 7-ish seconds and be in the high 96 to 98% heat range at a world of 0 degrees celsius in MWO versus this in a higher heat environment.
If I run a high risk build such as twin ER PPCs, I should fire them one at a time. Otherwise I will need an escort because it is too hot to fire them twice in 8 seconds. I might need an escort anyway. (Teamwork!)
Carrying 2 LRM-15s and several medium pulse lasers for defense isn't enough. Maybe I should carry 2 SRM-4s as well. Can't carry 6s it's too hot.
As a medium mech I may not have the speed of a light or the same damage output as a heavy or an assault, but I have the same heat capacity as a light, heavy, and an assault. I have a fair chance in a fight!
As a medium mech I would have more endurance than a light, since a light can't have as much heat dissipation as me. I may not have the same cooling rate as a heavy or an assault but I have fewer weapons, so I can perform equally or even outperform them in endurance. (So I'm better cooling than a light since I can dedicate more weight to increase my heat dissipation, and more heat efficient than an heavy due to less weight dedicated to weapons. My only threat is an assault and two of us can easily take one assault down or if I pace my shots better than the assault does, I'll easily take it out).
If I run a smaller engine, I can carry more heatsinks for faster cooling because I can't carry my weapons, my armor, and a big engine without sacrificing heatsinks.
Carrying a smaller engine does not screw me out of heat capacity (fewer HSR issues, slower mechs, slower meta, more big stompy robot action!)
I am rewarded with higher endurance for carrying smaller, weaker weapons.
I am rewarded for carrying far weaker weapons than everyone else and maintaining a low DPS, low HPS with higher endurance. Since they can't fire their 20 to 55 damage builds too often, I can get in close and brawl.
I will eventually overheat with 4 small lasers. Even though my dissipation is fast, my threshold is so low that I will reach it and overheat at some point.
I carry larger, more powerful weapons at the risk of overheating very frequently. Possibly once every 4 to 6 seconds.
The deciding factor of a brawl is who has the most endurance and better heat management -- this usually favors the weaker weapons.
20 ton mechs have an equal chance in terms of heat capacity to everyone else. They traded armor and firepower for a smaller size and superior speed. Though they have to worry about being easily knocked down, they should never have to worry about heat unless they hold down the trigger.
A Jenner, Commando, or Spider with an ER PPC is a fool. 4 to 5 back to back shots on Alpine and overheat, even with superior cooldown. This versus never being able to reach the overheat due to having 20 more capacity just for having 10 DHS in the engine. (50 with MWO's system and 10 DHS, versus 30 with the proposed and correct system from the original rules and any number of heatsinks, even 22 DHS, will never change that 30 limit).
A medium mech with small lasers and MGs has a very strong chance against an assault.
Fighting in packs of 2 or more is greatly encouraged as when one overheats, the other can keep firing.
A single stalker with 2 ER PPCs and 5 streaks has no chance by itself, it needs an escort or to pace itself.
Enemies with high alpha weaponry might do severe damage, but then will be shut down too long to fight back.
Decoy tactics, teamwork, coordination become encouraged without even so much as a cbill reward!
Heat management consists of "Alpha strike only as a last resort as chances are I'll kill myself if I do it! Too hot? Hold your fire even though you are already chain-firing. Maybe you should carry fewer weapons. Or, have you considered using small lasers or machine guns instead as a way of continuing to fight when you are too hot?"
As an assault mech with all my weapons, even with my reliance on ballistics if I fire them too often I will overheat. A lot. I need an escort of a smaller mech that has better endurance than myself. In exchange I can tank damage for that smaller mech. "Hey medium dude, could you watch my back? Keep me safe when I overheat and I'll keep you safe from weapons fire. Thanks man you're the greatest!" (Role warfare!)
After knockdowns return: "Oh crap, I tripped! C'mon, c'mon, c'mon! He's shooting me! Get up! Get up! YES! In your face! Now to get back to my team before I get knocked over again."
PGI after a bit of stat reading with the changes: "You know, these mechs are surviving an awful long time. The players say this feels right, but matches are lasting longer than expected, many fights are not ending with one side being completely decimated but with time running out. Maybe we should increase the timer? Perhaps we might lower the armor values a bit. Nah, the players seem happy."
No matter how many heatsinks I have, the maximum heat I can generate at once without shutting down is 29? Because if I hit 30 I shut down, right? Wow, I never played BT, TT, or MW before but that's easy to understand!
So the only difference between DHS and SHS is that DHS cools me twice as fast for less the same weight but takes up more slots? That's easy enough to understand.
Wait, if I wanted to save
I could carry 20 SHS and have the same benefits of 10 DHS? Awesome! That will help me save up for my second mech, I'll call him Johnny #5!That means if I needed more slots for the weapons I want, I could just use single heatsinks instead? I have weight to spare, let's try that!
So with SHS, if I stand in water and have SHS in my feet, they turn into DHS so long as I'm in the water? That's a cool mechanic! I like it!
The maximum possible alpha strike I can do without shutting down is 2 Gauss + 1 ER PPC for 55. 2 Gauss + 2 ER PPC is too risky. 1 Gauss + 2 ER PPC is too risky.
Running 2 gauss + 1 ER PPC, I run the risk of being extremely fragile and I must carry an XL engine. I will be easy to take out if someone gets close to me. I need friends to escort me. (Teamwork!)
With current heat values of ER PPCs (11), 3 of them is an instant shutdown. That's 30 damage and accomplishes the same goal of the penalty system, without the penalty system.
The 2 ER PPC and 2 PPC exploit of the penalty system would also lead to an instant shutdown and possibly moderate to severe self-inflicted heat damage.
The maximum number of LRMs I can fire at the same time are 5 LRM-20s. But, that is impossible to carry. Even with 2 LRM-15s I will run the risk of shutting down eventually as I will reach my threshold faster even with 2 times cooling than I would with MWO's current system.
Lasers are a good idea. But I have to use them sparingly since their heat is high. If I space out my shots and really make them count, I will improve both my gameplay and my heat management.
If I carry fewer weapons than I can fit, I'll be more heat efficient.
It is very risky to fire 4 large lasers at the same time. If I do I'll have to wait several seconds before I can safely fire them again. I better chainfire them.
If I fire 6 medium lasers at the same time I will be at 24 out of 30 heat. If I fire 7 medium lasers I will be at 28 out of 30 heat. This is risky, maybe it would be better to chainfire them.
Balancing might actually lower the heat of medium lasers back to canonical values.
With 2 AC/2s and 2 AC/5s I can fire non-stop for up to 7-ish seconds and be in the high 96 to 98% heat range at a world of 0 degrees celsius in MWO versus this in a higher heat environment.
If I run a high risk build such as twin ER PPCs, I should fire them one at a time. Otherwise I will need an escort because it is too hot to fire them twice in 8 seconds. I might need an escort anyway. (Teamwork!)
Carrying 2 LRM-15s and several medium pulse lasers for defense isn't enough. Maybe I should carry 2 SRM-4s as well. Can't carry 6s it's too hot.
As a medium mech I may not have the speed of a light or the same damage output as a heavy or an assault, but I have the same heat capacity as a light, heavy, and an assault. I have a fair chance in a fight!
As a medium mech I would have more endurance than a light, since a light can't have as much heat dissipation as me. I may not have the same cooling rate as a heavy or an assault but I have fewer weapons, so I can perform equally or even outperform them in endurance. (So I'm better cooling than a light since I can dedicate more weight to increase my heat dissipation, and more heat efficient than an heavy due to less weight dedicated to weapons. My only threat is an assault and two of us can easily take one assault down or if I pace my shots better than the assault does, I'll easily take it out).
If I run a smaller engine, I can carry more heatsinks for faster cooling because I can't carry my weapons, my armor, and a big engine without sacrificing heatsinks.
Carrying a smaller engine does not screw me out of heat capacity (fewer HSR issues, slower mechs, slower meta, more big stompy robot action!)
I am rewarded with higher endurance for carrying smaller, weaker weapons.
I am rewarded for carrying far weaker weapons than everyone else and maintaining a low DPS, low HPS with higher endurance. Since they can't fire their 20 to 55 damage builds too often, I can get in close and brawl.
I will eventually overheat with 4 small lasers. Even though my dissipation is fast, my threshold is so low that I will reach it and overheat at some point.
I carry larger, more powerful weapons at the risk of overheating very frequently. Possibly once every 4 to 6 seconds.
The deciding factor of a brawl is who has the most endurance and better heat management -- this usually favors the weaker weapons.
20 ton mechs have an equal chance in terms of heat capacity to everyone else. They traded armor and firepower for a smaller size and superior speed. Though they have to worry about being easily knocked down, they should never have to worry about heat unless they hold down the trigger.
A Jenner, Commando, or Spider with an ER PPC is a fool. 4 to 5 back to back shots on Alpine and overheat, even with superior cooldown. This versus never being able to reach the overheat due to having 20 more capacity just for having 10 DHS in the engine. (50 with MWO's system and 10 DHS, versus 30 with the proposed and correct system from the original rules and any number of heatsinks, even 22 DHS, will never change that 30 limit).
A medium mech with small lasers and MGs has a very strong chance against an assault.
Fighting in packs of 2 or more is greatly encouraged as when one overheats, the other can keep firing.
A single stalker with 2 ER PPCs and 5 streaks has no chance by itself, it needs an escort or to pace itself.
Enemies with high alpha weaponry might do severe damage, but then will be shut down too long to fight back.
Decoy tactics, teamwork, coordination become encouraged without even so much as a cbill reward!
Heat management consists of "Alpha strike only as a last resort as chances are I'll kill myself if I do it! Too hot? Hold your fire even though you are already chain-firing. Maybe you should carry fewer weapons. Or, have you considered using small lasers or machine guns instead as a way of continuing to fight when you are too hot?"
As an assault mech with all my weapons, even with my reliance on ballistics if I fire them too often I will overheat. A lot. I need an escort of a smaller mech that has better endurance than myself. In exchange I can tank damage for that smaller mech. "Hey medium dude, could you watch my back? Keep me safe when I overheat and I'll keep you safe from weapons fire. Thanks man you're the greatest!" (Role warfare!)
After knockdowns return: "Oh crap, I tripped! C'mon, c'mon, c'mon! He's shooting me! Get up! Get up! YES! In your face! Now to get back to my team before I get knocked over again."
PGI after a bit of stat reading with the changes: "You know, these mechs are surviving an awful long time. The players say this feels right, but matches are lasting longer than expected, many fights are not ending with one side being completely decimated but with time running out. Maybe we should increase the timer? Perhaps we might lower the armor values a bit. Nah, the players seem happy."
Edited by TygerLily, 28 July 2013 - 11:50 AM.
