38 replies to this topic

[lordsegan]

Big mechs like the Atlas basically SUCK now. The poptart highlander is basically the only really useful Assault mech.

Please adjust the movement changes so that big mechs can get up maybe 25% more hills. A middle ground. No pun intended.

[Ecrof]

Please stop whining That sure was a constructive post. Im cranky
Do you have a 350 std engine in you atlas if not you should buy one and have a fastlas.

Edited by Ecrof, 28 July 2013 - 07:20 PM.

[One Medic Army]

Must be why I see so many assaults everywhere, and when the other team has more we get stomped...

[Deathlike]

Someone is not running a Steiner Scout lance? What gives???

[Khobai]

not being able to walk up 45 degree slopes is way too punitive and completely unfun. its like saying mechs cant walk up stairs. and in real life an abrahms tank can drive up a 60 degree incline. So a mech should easily be able to walk up a 60 degree slope with legs.

[RG Notch]

Khobai, on 28 July 2013 - 07:28 PM, said:

not being able to walk up 45 degree slopes is way too punitive and completely unfun. its like saying mechs cant walk up stairs. and in real life an abrahms tank can drive up a 60 degree incline. So a mech should easily be able to walk up a 60 degree slope with legs.

Yes all the real life giant robots with fusion generators and gauss rifles etc can walk up hills no problem.

[Wolfways]

Khobai, on 28 July 2013 - 07:28 PM, said:

not being able to walk up 45 degree slopes is way too punitive and completely unfun. its like saying mechs cant walk up stairs. and in real life an abrahms tank can drive up a 60 degree incline. So a mech should easily be able to walk up a 60 degree slope with legs.

Depends on how much the mechs feet can swivel.
Think how much surface area there is on the tanks tracks. That's a lot of area to provide traction.
On the other hand, a mech might have to walk up an incline on its "toes" if its feet don't swivel enough.

[subgenius]

I disagree, this change adds a huge level of tactical thought to the use of terrain. Previously I could just charge my atlas up nearly any ridge to get out of the valleys in the canyon network map. Now I have to actually think about it if I want to transition to/from the high ground. Big improvement.

Oh, and leave the real life abrahms tanks out of the discussion. It's been done to death and has no bearing on the magic "physics" that are rampant in the battletech universe. Things don't mirror real life, learn to deal with it. The positive side of this is that we get to play with big, stompy robots... something that will probably never ever work in real life.

[Alek Ituin]

Wolfways, on 28 July 2013 - 07:52 PM, said:

Depends on how much the mechs feet can swivel.
Think how much surface area there is on the tanks tracks. That's a lot of area to provide traction.
On the other hand, a mech might have to walk up an incline on its "toes" if its feet don't swivel enough.

I'm going to put this out there... Tanks actually don't have that much track/ground contact area. Tracks on modern MBT's are pretty thin, and their suspensions don't give a lot of contact area. They just weigh 70 tons, so they can dig their way into a surface easily, providing MUCH more traction.

As for the Abrams... s**tty rubber padded treads do provide a good bit of traction over traditional steel treads. But they wear down SO FAST in combat conditions and off of paved roads.


But I mirror subgenius on this, lets keep Tanks out of Stompy Robots discussions.

[Stoicblitzer]

i'm not big on l2p but....

[Khobai]

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I disagree, this change adds a huge level of tactical thought to the use of terrain. Previously I could just charge my atlas up nearly any ridge to get out of the valleys in the canyon network map. Now I have to actually think about it if I want to transition to/from the high ground. Big improvement.

Its not an improvement. Because theres no clear indicators for which slopes you can actually go up. That is a huge no-no for map design to not show the players where they can go. Additionally theres now literally no reason to take a mech without jumpjets; which is why you see a lot of spiders, jenners, blackjacks, quickdraws, victors, highlanders in matches right now.

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Oh, and leave the real life abrahms tanks out of the discussion. It's been done to death and has no bearing on the magic "physics" that are rampant in the battletech universe. Things don't mirror real life, learn to deal with it. The positive side of this is that we get to play with big, stompy robots... something that will probably never ever work in real life.

Of course it has bearing. Realism is the basis for all simulation games. And its not realistic that a mech cant climb up a 60 degree incline. They climb up sheer cliffs in tabletop...

[subgenius]

Khobai, on 28 July 2013 - 08:57 PM, said:

Its not an improvement. Because theres no clear indicators for which slopes you can actually go up.

Are you kidding me? What, do you want colored slopes and dotted lines showing where you can walk? Use your head and look at the angles!

[jakucha]

Khobai, on 28 July 2013 - 08:57 PM, said:

Its not an improvement. Because theres no clear indicators for which slopes you can actually go up. That is a huge no-no for map design to not show the players where they can go. Additionally theres now literally no reason to take a mech without jumpjets; which is why you see a lot of spiders, jenners, blackjacks, quickdraws, victors, highlanders in matches right now.

You can get the hang of guessing accurately eventually. Slopes with snow can also be walked up easily. Whether or not you think it's an improvement is also purely opinion. I personally see it as better gameplay than before, and luckily they won't be getting rid of it.

Without it, jump jets are missing their main benefit and reason to exist. You don't need to use jumpjets to do well, either.

Edited by jakucha, 28 July 2013 - 09:03 PM.

[Theronlas]

Khobai, on 28 July 2013 - 07:28 PM, said:

not being able to walk up 45 degree slopes is way too punitive and completely unfun. its like saying mechs cant walk up stairs. and in real life an abrahms tank can drive up a 60 degree incline. So a mech should easily be able to walk up a 60 degree slope with legs.

Think you mean 60% grade there (~30deg). Have you ever tried climbing a 45deg slope without using your arms? Much harder than you think, so why should it be easy for a 100t walking tank.

[Khobai]

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Have you ever tried climbing a 45deg slope without using your arms? Much harder than you think, so why should it be easy for a 100t walking tank.

Because its allowed in battletech. Its canon that mechs can climb sheer cliffs. A mech can climb from level 0 elevation to level 2 elevation and then go from level 2 to level 4 elevation and so on... and that's way steeper than 45 degrees because level 2 elevation is as tall as the mech itself.

So from a real-life standpoint, it makes no sense. From a battletech rules/canon standpoint, it makes no sense. From a MWO standpoint its simply not a fun mechanic.

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You can get the hang of guessing accurately eventually. Slopes with snow can also be walked up easily. Whether or not you think it's an improvement is also purely opinion. I personally see it as better gameplay than before, and luckily they won't be getting rid of it.

Or you could just use jumpjets now like most people. Because the movement penalties have made jumpjets compulsory IMO.

Edited by Khobai, 28 July 2013 - 11:25 PM.

[Alek Ituin]

People... We're piloting giant robots, where the computer systems alone account for a majority of the base weight of the 'Mech chassis. You have a 25 ton base weight? 15 of those tons is invested into massive computer banks.

I think a basic terrain mapping system, with colored areas, guide systems, and general smart terrain mapping, is very possible.

The terrain mapping system would place a semi-opaque overlay onto the ground, taking into account 'Mech weight and engine size, as well as map angles. Then, it would generate a system of color-coded areas, showing pilots if hills or inclines are passable. You can also have a system that would place a guide line to the nearest objective, using the terrain map to generate the quickest and most efficient route to a point (can be player marked).

All of this coding is present in a game with a basic AI system, so it's not like it's unique or anything.


This is how it would work:

You are rolling an Atlas with a STD-260 engine. You come across a 45* incline, and activate the Terrain Mapping System for your 'Mech. The TMS will have pre-loaded a map-wide overlay, so you can instantly see passable terrain, both in Real-Time or on your Map. So, using this, you see you can't go directly up the slope. BUT, the TMS does tell you that you can zig-zag up the slope, as represented with a yellow overlay. However, on either side of this semi-passable terrain is solid red indicators, showing that no matter what, you can't climb up. But the floor beneath you is green, as is the rest of the (lets say) canyon bed.

Then you decide to go to objective Epsilon once you make it to the top of the incline (making this up as I go), so you pull up your map and place a marker over Epsilon. You note several impassable areas between you and Epsilon marked out in red on the map, but the TMS easily guides you past them with a simple flashing line. You close your map and begin to follow the line showing up on your TMS HUD overlay. With unexpected speed, you manage to get to Epsilon, passing terrain you didn't know was impassable before, and quickly manage to secure the objective.

You just won the match thanks to TMS and it's efficient pathfinding systems.

Edited by Alek Ituin, 28 July 2013 - 11:14 PM.

[subgenius]

Khobai, on 28 July 2013 - 11:12 PM, said:

Because its allowed in battletech. Its canon that mechs can climb sheer cliffs.

A rifleman could climb a sheet cliff? I don't have access to the books right now, but I'm having trouble believing that one.

Even if it's possible for a mech with actuated hands to climb something that steep, it has to be slower than molasses in winter (hold on guys, I'll be there in a few minutes... just a little further...).

Regardless, lots of stuff is allowed in canon to fill nich rules, but it's simply not feasible to program for all the corner cases.

[One Medic Army]

Khobai, on 28 July 2013 - 11:12 PM, said:

Because its allowed in battletech. Its canon that mechs can climb sheer cliffs.

It is also allowed in the rules to rip the leg off of a commando with your atlas and club the commando to death with it.
I think I want the devs making that happen before they decide to spend time on climbing animations and speeds for mechs.

Edited by One Medic Army, 28 July 2013 - 11:21 PM.

[Deathlike]

One Medic Army, on 28 July 2013 - 11:20 PM, said:

It is also allowed in the rules to rip the leg off of a commando with your atlas and club the commando to death with it.

I so want this...

[Khobai]

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It is also allowed in the rules to rip the leg off of a commando with your atlas and club the commando to death with it.

They said they want to put melee in the game eventually