376 replies to this topic

[Lonestar1771]

Sure feels like PGI is just limping along to the launch so they can just dump development off to some "caretaker" studio.

[Fishhawk]

Skyfaller, on 30 July 2013 - 07:30 PM, said:

The problem is not heat. Its convergence. Always has been.

This game is built mostly around TT concepts and rules. TT only had pinpoint damage at a very high cost in equipment and had penalties of its own to do so. Normal combat was random hit location. In MWO real time that can be achieved by simply removing the convergence or adapting it so you can only make them if you have the target locked and aimed long enough for the convergence to narrow down ... just like it takes an LRM time to lock. If target moves past a threshold range (~50m of 'converged' range) the convergence lock timer resets.

Thanks for the explanation, Skyfaller. I see your point, although I don't know if I would necessarily agree with them. I appreciate you clearly stating your opinion.

[BigMekkUrDakka]

ppc+gauss sniping is fun and takes a lot of skill
brawling is stupid, chaotic and random
sooo gimme back my 3ppc awesome!

[Nauht]

FupDup, on 30 July 2013 - 07:33 PM, said:

1.1 million accounts =/= 1.1 million active players. Misleading statistic is misleading.

Show me where I said active players?

But we've been through all this before - the ONLY hard number we have is 1.1 million accounts.

Now lets go play anecdotal guessing games - there were tons and still some threads about player numbers.

Here's another BS guessing one from me - 50% quit, 550k players. 50% of that are double accounts, 275k accounts. 50% of that are active - that's over 135k players. And that's just numbers I pulled out of my arse.

Just like every perception of low player count or the game is dying. No matter how you wish it, it ain't.

Try again.

[GZeorymer]

I figured I'd add my 2 cents worth, not sure if it'll mean anything, but opinions and words have meaning, in my opinion. Unless those words are heard, then nothing may change, for better or for worse. And I do hope the Dev team reads this post.

First off, LOVE This game, despite the flaws. It's not perfect, but it is a fun game. Though like many players, I'm noticing obvious flaws in the system that players can exploit to make the game either no fun when on the recieving end, or a pain of meta gaming stats. So, here are my thoughts...

1) Reconsideration on the Hardpoint/Customization system:
The strength of this game allows the different hard points of that mech to have nearly anything in it, as long as it follows within the limits of the hardpoint system. You can have an awesome with it's 3 PPCs and a small laser, or switch it up; maybe 3 ER PPcs or make it a medium laser boat. But that also presents a flaw in the system. Currently sniping is a hard tactic to counter due to the high alpha damage that's being done. 2 PPCs and a gauss round is a solid 35 damage on paper. That'll tear most armor off medium mechs in one volley.

The implimenation of the new heat system has had some good things, and bad things about it. It's 'slightly' reduced the boating. I'm seeing less 4 or 6 PPC stalkers (Thank Gawd!), but because people have research the heat system, I still see 2 PPC + 2 ER PPC stalkers who fire them in pairs, delivering solid 40 points near pinpiont. I've heard a mixed bag on LRMs, but since I don't often use them I won't give my opinion on it.

The basic jist, alot of people don't like the heat system and many think it won't change boating. I know I may get some anger when I say this, but I know some people have also suggested it; change the hardpoint system to a 'small' extent. Divide Energy weapons into 2 categories - Energy Weapons, and Heavy Energy Weapons (These include large lasers varieties and PPC varieties). Let's look at the Awesome. This mech is MEANT to be a PPC boat, it's design allows it. It has '3 heavy' energy slots and 1 normal slot. You can put normal energy weapons or heavy energy weapons in the heavy slots. A 'normal' slot CANNOT hold a heavy weapon. Let's look at the basic Stalker design. 2 large lasers, 4 medium lasers, 2 SRM launchers, 2 LRM launchers. For example, if I wanted to switch the large lasers for PPCs, yeah, I can do that. HOWEVER, if I wanted to put more PPCs in where the medium lasers are 'normal' energy points, you can't do that.

Why add a 'limit'? A ) It's only a minor restriction to the game's already VERY gracious hardpoint system. B ) This would OUTRIGHT prevent certain kinds of boat exploits with certain mechs. Unless that mech SPECIFICALLY is meant to have LOTS of big guns, then that's fine. If it's a mech that can have 'some', that's fine. But the idea is to prevent overkill, needless boating and needless alpha striking. This would make people THINK outside the box and actually make BALANCED builds based around this limitation. We don't need a PPC mech flavor of the month, I like mechs with variety, hence alot of the designs in Battletech and Mechwarrior lore.

Will do another post...

Edited by GZeorymer, 30 July 2013 - 09:12 PM.

[FupDup]

Nauht, on 30 July 2013 - 08:54 PM, said:

Show me where I said active players?

But we've been through all this before - the ONLY hard number we have is 1.1 million accounts.

Yeah, and it's a hard number that doesn't have a whole lot of worth.

Nauht, on 30 July 2013 - 08:54 PM, said:

...Just like every perception of low player count or the game is dying. No matter how you wish it, it ain't.

Try again.

I never said the player count is low or that the game is dying, I just pointed out that the 1.1 million statistic is misleading. Also, nobody in their right mind wants the game to be dying, so stop trying to paint me as someone who does. Strawman harder.

[GZeorymer]

2) Possible change/balance of the Target Reticle/Weapon convergence system
When you look at classic battletech from table top, to the novels, the MOST skilled pilots in the Innersphere maybe have a 70% accuracy. Why is that?

Mechs technically don't have the kind of convergence system that MWO uses. That's why people love PPC boating, able to land 30 or 40+ damage on a single section as long as they got a steady hand. This takes some of the 'skill' out of the game. Here could be a possible solution, as a friend of mine I talk to suggested...

Let's switch the system to what the novels and actual Battletech sytle of targeting and firing does. Arms are capable of weapon convergence, since arms can aim. HOWEVER, torso based weapons CANNOT have any kind of convergence. Consider this, the standard Hunchback has an AC20 mounted on its right shoulder. When you fire it at where your torso crossair it, it'll hit the center, such as the CT of another mech. TECHNICALLY this should NOT be possible. The AC20 shoulder is NOT slanted, it is STRAIGHT on the shoulder. Meaning technically, if I fire that AC20 at a mech 200 meters from me, I should be hitting that enemy mechs left torso, not their center. Just as on a Atlas with it's SRM6, if it fires it should hit the right torso on an enemy, not the center. The 2 medium lasers on it's CT will yes, hit the CT of a an enemy mech since it is ALIGNED to that angle.

This would be another possible fix for PPC boating or take more skill to boat or have more finesse in sniping. Meaning if I'm in a Jager with a PPC on each arm, and those gun arms cannot align like more free true arm, that means they should NOT hit CT all the time. What does that mean? It means if I fire my right PPC, I need to adjust my mech's aim if I want to hit a CT, same with my left. Meaning those Stalker pilots who love to hit CTs for 40+ damage? With how a Stalker's weapons are on their sides, they wouldn't be able to outright core a mech in 2 or 3 volleys. They'd have to take the time to actually AIM and POSITION the mech in order to align it's shots based on weapon location, just like in classic Battletech and in the tabletop.

More to come...

[GZeorymer]

4) Implimentation of different mech varities
This is something I assume the devs will work on in time. More mechs. Right now we have a decent selection of lights, mediums, heavies, and of course assaults. The Pheonix pack coming out in a little while shows some CLASSIC designs that have real impact, balance, and history in Battletech.

What I would ike to see, and I would think other people would, is seeing more of those 'classic' mechs that are ICONIC in Battletech/Mechwarrior, that have no reappeared in sometime. I know that we may never see the 'unseens', such as the Warhammer and Marauder...the whole copyright thing and all (which is truely sad, they are classic designs), but the Battletech universe is FULL of classic mechs that are historic. The Zeus, Cyclops, Dervish, Hatamoto-Chi, JUST to name a few. And with word the dev team wants to add a 'melee/close quarters' mechanic, think of mechs with hand held weapons. A Hatamoto-Chi can wield a mech sized sword, or the classic and infamous Hatchet Man, or the not so common Axe Man (More known in the Battletech cartoon animation).

It is my hope that the dev team will be open minded, and open their hearts out to these designs, and try to bring them to realization and to life in this new generation.


There, my 2 cents that I can think of. Took a few posts, but I hope I got the message across. I do also thank people for taking the time to actually read this, kudos to you if you took the time. And kudos to dev members if they read this too with open minds.

[Nauht]

FupDup, on 30 July 2013 - 09:07 PM, said:

Yeah, and it's a hard number that doesn't have a whole lot of worth.


I never said the player count is low or that the game is dying, I just pointed out that the 1.1 million statistic is misleading. Also, nobody in their right mind wants the game to be dying, so stop trying to paint me as someone who does. Strawman harder.

It's the only figure we have. Everything else is like a fart in the wind.
But from that hard number you can play any sort of guessing game and it would still show that the game is far from "dying". Even if you say 90% of those accounts aren't active that still leaves over 100k players active. See another number pulled out of nowhere.

And you're quite right - you're not one of those that claimed the game was dying so I apologise to you for lumping you in that category. Guess you're a bit brighter than those that claim the game is dying as a whole based on their friends not playing anymore.

[Nauht]

Hmm interesting about the targetting computer. But I think it wouldn't translate well into a fps... much like alot of things coming from TT. Handicapping a player right off the bat, particularly a newbie, wouldn't sit well I don't think. Most would be like "WTF? I have to get some equipment just to shoot straight?!!!"

I'm more in favour of a floating reticle that moves when the mech is moving or a cone of fire that gets smaller the slower you go. Some of the simpler, better ideas about pinpoint convergence. Those two mainly cos they're in other games and fps players would be used to the concept. Hell BF3's xhairs don't go pinpoint until you stop moving and crouch.

[Wales Grey]

I just saw the patch notes and this bit stuck out for me:

-LL, ERLL, LPL will now share their max alpha limit.

Okay, I can understand ERLL/LL sharing the same bracket in the #yoloradiation #paulsidiotidea #ghostheat system, but did the LPL really need to be made worse? What was the objective behind that design decision?

[MechFrog1]

Wales Grey, on 30 July 2013 - 10:06 PM, said:

I just saw the patch notes and this bit stuck out for me:

-LL, ERLL, LPL will now share their max alpha limit.

Okay, I can understand ERLL/LL sharing the same bracket in the #yoloradiation #paulsidiotidea #ghostheat system, but did the LPL really need to be made worse? What was the objective behind that design decision?

If I had to venture a guess, it's to funnel people into bracket builds because someone is afraid to just enforce stock builds from the start and now they can't cram the genie back into the bottle without a mass exodus.

[Mister Blastman]

Nauht, on 30 July 2013 - 10:03 PM, said:

Hmm interesting about the targetting computer. But I think it wouldn't translate well into a fps... much like alot of things coming from TT. Handicapping a player right off the bat, particularly a newbie, wouldn't sit well I don't think. Most would be like "WTF? I have to get some equipment just to shoot straight?!!!"

I'm more in favour of a floating reticle that moves when the mech is moving or a cone of fire that gets smaller the slower you go. Some of the simpler, better ideas about pinpoint convergence. Those two mainly cos they're in other games and fps players would be used to the concept. Hell BF3's xhairs don't go pinpoint until you stop moving and crouch.

Well, we already have people sacrificing tonnage and crits for Artemis and they don't complain about it.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 30 July 2013 - 10:15 PM.

[Ter Ushaka]

Wales Grey, on 30 July 2013 - 10:06 PM, said:

I just saw the patch notes and this bit stuck out for me:

-LL, ERLL, LPL will now share their max alpha limit.

Okay, I can understand ERLL/LL sharing the same bracket in the #yoloradiation #paulsidiotidea #ghostheat system, but did the LPL really need to be made worse? What was the objective behind that design decision?

Maybe to try and keep all large lasers on the same level? I got nothing.

[Nauht]

mint frog, on 30 July 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:

If I had to venture a guess, it's to funnel people into bracket builds because someone is afraid to just enforce stock builds from the start and now they can't cram the genie back into the bottle without a mass exodus.

Or the far simpler explanation that they wanted to curb high alpha boats.
I mean the folks that ran 6 PPC/LL/srm would simply have moved onto 6 LPL.

And artemis for LRM - people accept it cos of the nature of LRMs. It's an indirect fire weapon. But when you start messing around with a person's direct fire weapons and shots don't land where that person is aiming then you'd have some pissed off fps players.

Edited by Nauht, 30 July 2013 - 10:24 PM.

[MechFrog1]

Nauht, on 30 July 2013 - 10:22 PM, said:

Or the far simpler explanation that they wanted to curb high alpha boats.
I mean the folks that ran 6 PPC/LL/srm would simply have moved onto 6 LPL.

Almost makes you wonder why no one ran 6LPL boats before the ghost heat system went in. I mean, if you were an inquisitive individual you might wonder that. Perhaps it was because LPL were horrible even before PGI started beating on them like a bunch of boys shoving Piggy off the cliff.

[NextGame]

Deathlike, on 30 July 2013 - 08:03 PM, said:

Believe it or not, there are "ninja community testers" that are under NDA, who provide feedback to PGI. The issue is that w/o knowing who they are, I get the feeling that the feedback provided is not balanced with the higher level play... or worse.. under the false impression that these changes are working as intended™.

I honestly wonder if the people participating in this feedback actually PLAY at the highest levels to give feedback or you wonder whether they are the "noise" PGI has been talking about. It's not a good signal either way.

I figure that the community testers are the usual set of brown nosers that blindly agree with every change that gets made. I hope not, but that's the way these things tend to go because developers tend not to grasp the idea that balanced feedback might actually be worthwhile.

[Nauht]

mint frog, on 30 July 2013 - 10:32 PM, said:

Almost makes you wonder why no one ran 6LPL boats before the ghost heat system went in. I mean, if you were an inquisitive individual you might wonder that. Perhaps it was because LPL were horrible even before PGI started beating on them like a bunch of boys shoving Piggy off the cliff.

Nah cos they could boat LL, PPCs. Ofc when compared to those it's inferior but with the heat penalties that's changed.

Now with that gone and no curb to the LPL it would be next to be boated for that big alpha.

You guys can't honestly see that?

[Redacted]

Edited by Dakkath, 31 July 2013 - 08:34 AM.
quote cleanup

[Deathlike]

Nauht, on 30 July 2013 - 10:38 PM, said:

Now with that gone and no curb to the LPL it would be next to be boated for that big alpha.

You guys can't honestly see that?

That was NEVER the case since the recent change to LPLs. A small damage increase (10 to 10.6) followed by a major heat increase (7.3 to 8.6) made it from a niche weapon to a very undesirable weapon.

It can't be the next big alpha if it's WORSE than the PPC AND LL.

Edited by Deathlike, 30 July 2013 - 10:42 PM.

[MechFrog1]

Nauht, on 30 July 2013 - 10:38 PM, said:

Nah cos they could boat LL, PPCs. Ofc when compared to those it's inferior but with the heat penalties that's changed.

Now with that gone and no curb to the LPL it would be next to be boated for that big alpha.

You guys can't honestly see that?

So your argument is that now that people aren't boating PPCs (they still are) and LL (Never a problem to begin with unless you count the nasty 3 LL 3 MG Marmaset), they'd go over to using a horrible LPL build just for... what reason exactly?