62 replies to this topic

[Corvus Antaka]

Mack1, on 30 July 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

All the people cheering the heat nerf are narrow minded, they fail to see what is actually happening to this once brilliant game. Our choices of Mech setup are being eroded away and pretty soon everyone will be packing exactly the same gear in their Mech. I already saw it after the first stage of the patch and now it will be even worse.

I disagree. Our choices are now more diverse, before it was 4-6 ppc or 2 AC/20 or 2 Gauss. The only "challenge" remaining is the dual PPC/Gauss combo pinpoint damage, beyond that the system works exactly as intended. how so?

mechs with the pinpoint advantage like dual ac/40 must tradeoff heat or 2 shots whend eciding if it is worth it to fire out that sidetorso in 1 big 40 dmg alpha.

mechs with mixed weapons can alpha, but face issues like SRM vs Gauss vs AC vs Laser travel times.

and yet boats are still great mechs if you link fire and maintain a steady pace.

Every whiner on this system is someone who loved cheesing up the ac/40/4PPC builds, because everyone else was..unaffected.

and so now we see more diversity - boats, mixed mechs, etc etc.

i sure see a lot more diversity, and the only cheese left is the dual/triple ppc/gauss highlanders, the kids with no real mech piloting talent that can hit space and mouse 1 from behind cover and laugh at how OP they are.

higher ppc heat will come until it is balanced.

once a gauss/ppc nerf hits no doubt another round of crying will commence.

Orzorn, on 30 July 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

And then we move to Dual PPC + Some other decent ballistic.

As for RoyaleWithCheese, this problem won't be addressed until PGI reduces the heat cap so that higher PPC heat (which they are implementing) actually means something.

As long as you can do higher heat weapons with low heat weapons (PPC/Gauss, for example), PPC's will be strong. But if PPC's ALONE put you to nearly overheating (at 10 heat a pop and a 30 heat cap), no combination of 2 PPC + anything will stop them from being the hot weapons they are.

dual ppc isnt really a problem, 20 damage a shot. the issue is that the ppc heat vs pinpoint dmg needs better balancing vs guns like the erlarge that require exposure and tracking. going back to 10/15 for heat may be necessary, even 10/13 might be enough.

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 30 July 2013 - 04:18 PM.

[Murzao]

Royalewithcheese, on 30 July 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

Top three suggestions that I've heard in the last few days that are solidly better than PGI's idea:

• Turn PPCs into beam weapons.
  
• Make PPCs shoot slower. Sometimes paired with an increase in Gauss speed to de-couple the alpha.
  
• Double armor, giving sustained damage builds (i.e., DPS and brawlers) an advantage over high-heat alpha builds (i.e., PPC users.)

A nice bonus to these ideas is that they don't randomly nerf laser hunchbacks and lurmboats and actually affect more than one kind of non-terrible PPC build.

Ceterum censeo heat scale esse delendam.

And all 3 are really really dumb ideas.

1. Why? Nobody complains about people boating AC10s. Or double Gauss.
2. So you want to devote resources to swap one weapon speed for another that changes nothing........brilliant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
3. Double armor.....that is a laugh that won't change a thing that will in fact make alphas even stronger because snipers that hide and peek shoot will live even longer....dumbest idea ever conceived.....and there's a lot of dumb in this forum lately.
Still waiting for an actual good idea.......

[Hexenhammer]

I'd rather be dodging PPC stalkers.

[Royalewithcheese]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 30 July 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

Our choices are now more diverse, before it was 4-6 ppc or 2 AC/20 or 2 Gauss.

Of those builds, only 4xPPC is AFAIK competitive. The brave new sniper meta hasn't been kind to robots that have to be slow or fragile to run 2xAC/20, and to my knowledge dualguass hasn't been a thing for months. Gauss + PPC's where it's at.

[jeffsw6]

Here comes one of my wall-of-text posts. If you don't feel like reading it, you know how this works, just scroll down until you see the island picture or Downfall link; I'm sure they are coming.

Khobai, on 30 July 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

you can dodge gauss. you could dodge ppcs when they were 1200 too. And medium mechs were viable because they could dodge.

That must be why the game is full of over-powered mediums running around preying on helpless Gausscats and... oh wait!

Khobai, on 30 July 2013 - 03:20 PM, said:

We told PGI 2 weeks ago that their asinine heat penalty system wouldnt work. They implemented it anyway. Now LL, LPL, SRMs, LRMs, AC/20s, etc... are all nerfed, while PPC/Gauss is entirely unaffected and worse than ever.

I actually told Paul on May 18th, and he responded to my thread, remember? That's ten weeks ago! Here is the link where he claims head-scale was not locked in and was just something they were testing: @Paul Inouye Regarding "system that induces a heat scale when firing multiples..." http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

I later explain why I think they make these bad decisions: PGI's Idealism is Where Game-Balance Problems Come From http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1 and I call them out for it last week, but we posted too many memes and quickly went to K-town: True Predictions About the Heat-Scale System http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

Nicholas Carlyle, on 30 July 2013 - 03:26 PM, said:

Yeah, supposedly they want to do 5 damage + 5 splash damage once they figure out how to make splash damage work properly.

stjobe, on 30 July 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

I'm a programmer by trade for the last 20 years. It was sarcasm.

I have also been a programmer since 1997. I do not understand why they make these ridiculous implementation errors with splash damage. Every time they have that issue, which is every time they've touched splash ever, I wonder if they have any idea what they are doing.

Khobai, on 30 July 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

Nerfing seismic was pointless. What they shouldve done was left it alone and just made it a medium mech only module.

That's the second-best idea I've read about seismic sensors. Stoicblitzer knows the best one:

Stoicblitzer, on 30 July 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

nerfing seismic helped a little. removing it would have helped more.

KuruptU4Fun, on 30 July 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:

If you don't like it, don't see hope for it, and have basically given up on it. Why are you posting?

I still post because I might resume spending money on MW:O, if they ever get their balance together.

[PanzerMagier]

Aside from the new map, this patch sucks. So much for "big" changes.

[Orzorn]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 30 July 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

mechs with the pinpoint advantage like dual ac/40 must tradeoff heat or 2 shots whend eciding if it is worth it to fire out that sidetorso in 1 big 40 dmg alpha.

I'm sure LRM 10's really needed that nerf. 3 LRM 10 mechs were scourges of the field.

And those Dual LPL, Dual Large Laser mechs, oh man, what beasts!

PGI seems consistent in one thing only: how poorly they use their own crafted tools to attempt to balance the game.

Quote

higher ppc heat will come until it is balanced.

It won't be until PGI reaches either insane levels of heat, or removes their insane heat cap.

Quote

the issue is that the ppc heat vs pinpoint dmg needs better balancing vs guns like the erlarge that require exposure and tracking.

And that balance is heat and the heat cap.

PGI fiddling with heat values as small as 1 (compared to the massive heat cap) won't stop PPC's from being insanely good because of their extremely fast, very light (both in crits and tons) weapons for the damage they do.

Edited by Orzorn, 30 July 2013 - 04:30 PM.

[Royalewithcheese]

Murzao, on 30 July 2013 - 04:25 PM, said:

1. Why? Nobody complains about people boating AC10s. Or double Gauss.
2. So you want to devote resources to swap one weapon speed for another that changes nothing........brilliant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
3. Double armor.....that is a laugh that won't change a thing that will in fact make alphas even stronger because snipers that hide and peek shoot will live even longer....dumbest idea ever conceived.....and there's a lot of dumb in this forum lately.

While you clearly put a lot of thought into that post, I wonder if you would be better served tracking down the threads I'm summarizing in 1 sentence each and reading them there.

[Mack1]

Am reinstalling Hawken, that's how bad MWO is getting.

[Candun]

i really dislike this new patch...cause i cant play now heh

[Royalewithcheese]

Orzorn, on 30 July 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

As for RoyaleWithCheese, this problem won't be addressed until PGI reduces the heat cap so that higher PPC heat (which they are implementing) actually means something.

Also a much better idea than heat scale.

(Heat scale delenda est.)

[KuruptU4Fun]

jeffsw6, on 30 July 2013 - 04:26 PM, said:

I still post because I might resume spending money on MW:O, if they ever get their balance together.

Yeah that was kinda not even anywhere apparent in what you said...

[Murzao]

Royalewithcheese, on 30 July 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

While you clearly put a lot of thought into that post, I wonder if you would be better served tracking down the threads I'm summarizing in 1 sentence each and reading them there.

You see the 'problem' has never been about a 35 alpha pinpoint...that is nothing. My centurion has a 50-52 alpha and soon as I'm in a highlanders face I rip him a new one. Yesterday I killed a phract, then a Gausscat, then an Atlas, then another pract...all in a row in 1v1 combat in my 9-A Centurion. I ended that match with like 850 damage/5 kills The 'problem' is not that they have a lot of weapons......the 'problem'...is assaults all like to cower in the same spot like little girls. Mediums can kill heavies/assaults in 1v1 combat no problem......the 'problem' is when the medium has to run into all 4 in the same spot. Arty/Airstrike buffs are awesome (maybe need to buff more need to test) to prevent the ACTUAL problem of a herd of COWERING ASSAULTS.
ps: all mechs above were fresh I didn't killsteal any of em I wrecked them from full/near full.

Edited by Murzao, 30 July 2013 - 04:49 PM.

[Jesus Box]

Mack1, on 30 July 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

All the people cheering the heat nerf are narrow minded, they fail to see what is actually happening to this once brilliant game. Our choices of Mech setup are being eroded away and pretty soon everyone will be packing exactly the same gear in their Mech. I already saw it after the first stage of the patch and now it will be even worse.

I am very confident that this heat/boating vendetta will be a huge turning point in MWO, in a year's time if the game fails and at this stage I think it's heading that way, people will look back at the heat/boating patch and say this is what ruined the game.

I noticed a random comment on one of my old MWO videos last week, it was "wow... can't believe how much better closed beta looked over the current version" That's pretty much how bad it's become.

The ECM was the turning point. This is just the next step. They're doing BS they shouldn't be doing just to cater to cry babies that can't handle being killed in a PvP game. That's what they are doing, and it's a horrible thing to do with a game. It's like Blizzard. People cried about being killed on PvP realms, so they put in the ability to teleport to all dungeons, which is also the fastest way to lvl since Cata, along with max level guards in all towns including neutral ones. So now world PvP is dead and gone in that game. Blizzard should have just said "ST FU, L2P, deal with it, or reroll PvE", but they couldn't do that. They had to cater to the crybabies while screwing the rest of us over. PGI has basically become Blizzard, and in record breaking time. They're doing the same kind of crap. They ignore the real issues of the game/balance and instead put in crap that doesn't need to be here in order to "fix" things that doesn't need fixing in the first place. This is basically not a Battletech game anymore. It's a ripoff of a Battletech game or a messed up bastard cousin of what one should be. This is thanks to them throwing their source material out the window and doing their own thing with the technology/weapons in order to cater with the game.

In the end it won't even help. You can't satisfy crybabies. They'll just cry about the next strategy or the next thing. People will now boat 3-6 AC2s or a row of AC5/10/Ultra since they haven't been added to PGI's shitlist yet. So they'll cry about that next. Then PGI will add that weapon to the list. Then they'll cry about being killed with something else. Eventually all guns will be on the heat nerf list. Then they'll cry about an AC20+2xPPC alpha killing them. Then what are you going to do? In any case; they'll never be happy, just like the losers on the Blizzard forums always crying about "this is OP, that is OP, I'm rock, scissors is fine, nerf paper, etc QQ QQ QQ". So why even bother? Don't cater to people that want the game skewed in their personal favor without thinking about the game itself as a whole. The people that are unbiased, and make suggestions based on the quality of the game and fairness as a whole, are completely and regularly ignored. I've seen that for almost a year of following the game's forum and patches.

I once thought this game would actually be better than Hawken or even compete with League or other MOBAs. Now I know it's doomed to fail as another "could have been" MOBA game that'll never get above a low pop because the developers are completely moronic. This game will never have a professional league or huge following like League(which is what they are clearly hoping for) and it's because of the stupid crap they do with it. Many people, the ones that haven't already left in the past months this year, will begin to leave now. Former League players will return to League. Others will return to or try Hawken or move on to other games. Cheers PGI; you made a complete mockery of Battletech and doomed your game to fail. I hope that's what you wanted. I bet they delete this and forum ban this account.

Edited by Jesus Box, 30 July 2013 - 05:03 PM.

[Royalewithcheese]

Murzao, on 30 July 2013 - 04:46 PM, said:

You see the 'problem' has never been about a 35 alpha pinpoint...that is nothing. My centurion has a 50-52 alpha and soon as I'm in a highlanders face I rip him a new one. Yesterday I killed a phract, then a Gausscat, then an Atlas, then another pract...all in a row in 1v1 combat in my 9-A Centurion. I ended that match with like 850 damage/5 kills The 'problem' is not that they have a lot of weapons......the 'problem'...is assaults all like to cower in the same spot like little girls. Mediums can kill heavies/assaults in 1v1 combat no problem......the 'problem' is when the medium has to run into all 4 in the same spot. Arty/Airstrike buffs are awesome (maybe need to buff more need to test) to prevent the ACTUAL problem of a herd of COWERING ASSAULTS.
ps: all mechs above were fresh I didn't killsteal any of em I wrecked them from full/near full.

This is truly a spectacular post for many reasons, some bolded. I am quoting it for posterity in case you delete it in a sudden fit of self-awareness.

[One Medic Army]

Khobai, on 30 July 2013 - 03:20 PM, said:

The best thing PGI could do at this point is a hotfix for PPC projectile speed (lower it from 2000 to 1200 temporarily). And then during the next major patch, implement a more permanent fix for PPCs AND remove this heat penalty crap, which not only failed completely at what it was intended to do, but also completely ruined an entire subset of weapons that were never overpowered to begin with.

Because the best way to nerf PPC+Gauss is obviously for all 3 projectiles to have the same speed and thus hit the same spot.
Just sayin'

Yeah, the (non-ER)PPC velocity needs a nerf and (ER)PPCs need their heat pushed back up.
I am totally fine with the projectile speed on the ERPPC, but it should run hotter.

[Murzao]

Royalewithcheese, on 30 July 2013 - 04:57 PM, said:

This is truly a spectacular post for many reasons, some bolded. I am quoting it for posterity in case you delete it in a sudden fit of self-awareness.

Just another day at the office for me lol....lets break this down for you. My last 2 suggestions were to improve arty/airstrike and to remove speed/turnspeed from assault/heavies....they did basically the same by giving mediums a 2nd turnspeed buff in the near future. The ideas in this thread are doomed to a horrible death because they're all garbage.
The weapon loadout isn't a real problem. A 6ML Jenner is far more dangerous than any poptart Highlander by himself. Killing highlanders is easymode in my Jenner (or any medium if you know what you're doing).
But go ahead and think that it's the weapons that are the problem. They are not. It is the cowering zerg that is, nothing more or less.
Killing heavies and assaults with a 52 alpha in Canyons when you can drop in behind em is pretty easymode just sayin.
@Roland, I'm in the highest Elo I play with/against premades every game....and usually carry them in a medium. In 8 mans well that is where the cowering assaults most come out to play...basically teams full of baddies who can't cut it. I can't wait till CW with drop limits and the self proclaimed 'leet' with their poptarts are gonna cry hard when they get pushed in since they won't have an 800 ton yellow zerg ball. Basically the same people that cry about capping. I've capped many games when the enemy side had 4+ poptarts who cried on general chat about coming out to fight instead of winning haha.....Sweet delicious tears.

Edited by Murzao, 30 July 2013 - 05:37 PM.

[Roland]

Some people play against opponents who are good enough to hit a moving Jenner or centurion.

[Valore]

Roland, on 30 July 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

Some people play against opponents who are good enough to hit a moving Jenner or centurion.

With the currently still immensely rubbish HSR, that's a rare thing in itself.

All this comes from PGI's insistence that boating is the issue, and not pinpoint accuracy.

Ironic, because the former is entirely canon in BT, but the latter is absolutely not.

[Royalewithcheese]

Murzao, on 30 July 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

I'm in the highest Elo

Murzao, on 30 July 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

who cried on general chat