198 replies to this topic

[Tarquinn]

I've just read this thread and threw up in my mouth a little bit. Really, guys?

Tarquinn, on 18 June 2012 - 09:01 AM, said:

I've just read this thread and threw up in my mouth a little bit.

Citation needed. Source?

Edited by Tarquinn, 18 June 2012 - 09:06 AM.

[Naglinator]

Actaully german scientists put a man in space for the soviets. Also helped them with da bomb as well. The americans pretty much caught up with the soviet in a few years and then smoked them. Though the russians are the only ones to land on venus. ***** all you want, if the clans are put in the game the developers will probably give both sides the same weapons and the only difference might be clan specific mechs for the clans and IS mechs for the surats... i mean IS..

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Tarquinn, on 18 June 2012 - 09:02 AM, said:

I've just read this thread and threw up in my mouth a little bit. Really, guys?

lol, but come now, this is part of any fandom - heated debates. Every nerd carries an armchair lawyer card, and the clans are a hotbutton issue, and always have been.

I think we can all agree though, the Allies won WW2 (lol)
now what about clan tech... ()

[Skylarr]

Naglinator, on 18 June 2012 - 09:16 AM, said:

Actaully german scientists put a man in space for the soviets. Also helped them with da bomb as well. The americans pretty much caught up with the soviet in a few years and then smoked them. Though the russians are the only ones to land on venus. ***** all you want, if the clans are put in the game the developers will probably give both sides the same weapons and the only difference might be clan specific mechs for the clans and IS mechs for the surats... i mean IS..

The Soviet Cosmonaut was on an automated ship that he had no control over. The American Astronaut Had some control over his ship once in orbit.

The Russians were not the ONLY one to land Venus. The US flew past it 1st. The Russians did land on it 1st.

Missions to Venus
The first spacecraft to visit Venus was Mariner 2 in 1962. It was subsequently visited by many others (more than 20 in all so far), including Pioneer Venus and the Soviet Venera 7 the first spacecraft to land on another planet, and Venera 9 which returned the first photographs of the surface (left). Most recently, the orbiting US spacecraft Magellan produced detailed maps of Venus' surface using radar

[Haakon Valravn]

Someone previously mentioned that Clan players won't play without ClanTech.

I will. I'm a Clan player.

gamesguy, on 16 June 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

Name a single retail multiplayer video game where one side gets weapons 2x as powerful and more hp in exchange for having less players.

Every single multiplayer title with a 'Juggernaut' mode.

Also: Sherman versus Panther is irrelevant, if your Panthers are being tossed around like a child's playthings by ship-to-shore fire (as occurred to many of the Panzers to actually show up for the party in Normandy) or shot up by P-51s well behind the front lines. (For T-34 versus Panther, sub God-of-War batteries and Il-2s, respectively.)

And, yes, Soviet tankers did love the Sherman. It was not until after the war was over, and the Cold War began, that the Soviets spread the idea that the Sherman was a piece of junk.

And, yes, the Soviets did beat the Americans into space. But then, they were still riding the boon of captured German technologies and scientists (plus American sympathizers): Without the V2, Sputnik never would have existed. Without Hugo Schmeisser, the AK-47 would have just been a droll StG-44 clone. Without the American B-29, the Soviets never would have had the Bear (their primary long-range bomber until the 1980s). Without the Manhattan Project, the Soviets never would have developed an atomic bomb. After that petered out, in the '60s and '70s, the Soviets were quickly left in the dust by American technological innovation. While the Soviets and Russians have turned out some very interesting, very innovative designs since, they mostly have gotten side-lined in favor of projects copying those already in use by the West.

As for the conventional wisdom that tanks are as much a liability in urban warfare as an asset, it is interesting to note that the Russian experience with the T-72 (and marginally better, but twice as expensive and therefore discontinued T-80) and BMPs has very much borne this out... while the American experience with the M1A1 and M1A2 Abrams, M2/M3 Bradley IVFs, and Strykers and LAVs has contra-indicated this 'wisdom'.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Haakon Valravn, on 18 June 2012 - 04:26 PM, said:

Every single multiplayer title with a 'Juggernaut' mode.

but, notice theres a difference here. 'Juggurnaut' is a game mode, not the only mode.
next please.

[Lord Exalted]

Im going with, just wait till clans come out and hope devs balance it right. cause right now we dont know anything

[Karl Streiger]

Always when talking about Clan advantage i have to think about the Hellbringer (Prime) - or the Mad Dog (Prime) ....
Both have really bad heat problems - and both have a really thin armor.
The Hellbringer vs a Thundebolt with Star League technology would be a interesting fight - and i'm not sure that the Hellbringer will win.

What makes the whole thing problematic is the mech lab - when it is allowed to make some not cannon modification you can turn the hellbringer into a really dangerous foe - upgrading speed but still with the punch of some IS assault mechs at maximum armor

[BlazeKaiser]

Clan never lost the tech the IS did during the 1-4th succession wars. Because of that they actually made new designs, improved upon existing tech, and kept old designs alive.

Clan tech for ballistic and missile technology is plain better. IS did make some experimental weapons, such as the Extreme Range Missiles(want so bad).

Lasers on the other hand are much more of a tradeoff. Clan lasers are all Extended range, there are no standard versions. The high ranges of the weapons are countered by the high heat levels. Clan tech uses double heat sinks so that is acceptable.
-----------------------
The real problem with clan tech is going to be the commonness of certain weapons. Gauss Rifles for example are rare in the IS, but common in the Clans. Some designs are based up those to become snipers, such as the Gauss Rifle-boat Glass Spider, or rapid raider, the Shadow cat.

IS mechs before the clan invasions were all brawlers. they had lost all long range tech and were just recovering ER laser technology and inventing some long range experimental weapons such as Hyper Velocity autocannons.

Basic thing=Clan Mechs can snipe, and in large numbers, IS can only do so in small numbers of rare mechs.

[Xtron2112]

I don't really care. I just want to use Clan chassis (i.e. the Timberwolf and Dire Wolf). If I have to use IS gear on it, so be it.

[Joanna Conners]

After reading this thread I've decided to log off the forums for a bit and play more Star Wars: The Old Republic.

If anyone starts arguing about who'd win in a fist fight between Patton and Montgomery I'll come back with popcorn.

[Karl Streiger]

Demona, on 19 June 2012 - 10:05 AM, said:

If anyone starts arguing about who'd win in a fist fight between Patton and Montgomery I'll come back with popcorn.

Hm while the Montgomery is still not cannon -> TRO 3063 (great work however) i think the Montgomery will win a duel vs a Patton

Edited by Karl Streiger, 19 June 2012 - 11:47 PM.

[Dasomen]

from a "Fluff" standpoint the clans are simply more advanced technologically speaking than the inner sphere. the inner sphere if some of you remember "lost" a few centuries of technology after the forefathers of the clanners left the sphere. the sphere went into a state of regression while the clanners were free to develop a bit of tech, not to mention if you get all the math worked out the clanners actually have a good 300+ years (some fluff buff may say it's around 320 to 340 depending on the clan, but that's for the fluff buffs). in a sense it's like comparing America today with all of our advancements to America during the civil war. it's not relay no contest, cival war tech is brutal and efficient, and it kills like nothing else dont get me wrong. anyone wants to disagree with me on that and i'll show them the results of the parrot gun. mind you this bit is a tad off, a closer example is like Nazi Germany to the allies, war excluded in this bit and purely on a technology standpoint comparing tech. Germans had the first stealth aircraft, first effective hospital system, and first designs for some rather interesting designs for rifles, pistols, ect... oh yes and they had the nuke first but couldn't produce it due to logistics reasons... if there are those out there thinking America actually had the first stealth aircraft i would recommend going to your local library and requesting the declassified section of the paperclip files from the CIA/FBI... and no i'm not joking on this, yes the government actually called a program for scientist relocation paperclip.

but onto the clan bit, they have better tech because for a long time, one side was in a state of technological stagnation/regression while they had time to advance a bit. it's better for the same reason a famas is better than a british musket from the revolutionary wars, time.

is it fair? oh by the emperor of 40k no. but ask yourself, is war fair? nope not in the least. it's all about having the bigger guns. and while the clans are more technologically advanced, the only things keeping them from decimating the inner sphere is A infighting between clans (big factor there) and B the inner sphere outnumbers them to a point it realy ends at a stalemate. sure one clan mech can take down maybe 10 sphere mechs with an average pilot, but the sphere will literally send hordes of mechs. well that and drop ships still hurt when they land on you (pulled that off in table top modified rules for occupation and planetary invasion)

to sum it up, in war, there is no such thing as a fair fight, anyone who tells you otherwise is just candy coating it for you. your objective is to kill your enemy, not hold their hand and take them to a tea party.

so given all of this, and given the timeline for some decent clan activity is just about a year away or so... how do i think they will implement this in game?
VERY CAREFULLY. the clan stuff is possibly going to be expensive as all get out, (not real cash expensive but in game cash) and will most likely require a certain level before you can purchase it, so that you have to tech up to the clan tech. now as previous posters here said, clan tech has a critical disadvantage... that my friends is heat so bad you dont even need a bonfire to make smores, all you need to do is pull the trigger once and badaboom badablat you're cooking.

now fluff wise the mechs of the clans had excessive amounts of internal mods, different parts, and if you even want to call those stock, you're a better lier than most politicians. so i suspect a term will come out for optimized mechs that have heat regulators in just the right arrangements with weapons that will be called "clanner mechs". saw this in MW4. (no not modern warfare 4... even thinking that it's going to get to that point makes me want to vomit, i'm talking about MechWarrior4) depending on what servers or mods you were running.

so how will they implement clan mechs in game? no way to tell without a thorough analysis of the system. i may have 4 years schooling in game design but i cant give you a definitive answer on how they will do it without looking at the system and testing the heck out of it. now mind you if i was a tester i couldn't tell you due to the whole NDA thing, so even if i say i'm not only way to prove that is asking one of the devs who have the master list... but alas i am NOT a tester... not that i'm dumb enough to break a NDA... but i suspect that the heat generation will be far too high and the requirements will be far too high to mount any more than possibly a single clanner weapon on a mech and have it be effective. i mean sure you can run a musket build but have fun waiting around for 30 seconds while your mech cools off, mind you with a musket build whatever you hit is dead... trick is hitting it, because if you miss, you're screwed.

as they say, only time will tell what they decide to do. looking forwards to running my ork build again though.... scout loaded up with a bunch of machine guns laughing at everyone trying not to get blown up... silly yes, effective, yes... recommended? uhhh not unless you're as crazy as i am.

Edited by Dasomen, 20 June 2012 - 01:50 AM.

[JackCrow]

I think everything will work out fine..... A good player with any tech is going to find a way to win.

Besides the way it turns out in these games, the clan mechs always sacrifice armor for greater mobility and weaponry. Bad or mediocre players who can't pilot well will get chewed up by the more skilled players.

[Joanna Conners]

Karl Streiger, on 19 June 2012 - 11:47 PM, said:

Hm while the Montgomery is still not cannon -> TRO 3063 (great work however) i think the Montgomery will win a duel vs a Patton

I was going to say Patton vs. Rommel, but two variants of the same model seemed a little bit more boring. I love you forever for catching that.

[BlazeKaiser]

clan mechs dont sacrifice armor. the problem is that frontline clan omnimechs often have XL engines, so any part of the torso, not just the center, can damage the engine=boom. no xl engine, alot tougher torso.

Second line often dont have xl engines and are built much more for long lasting, using energy weapons, heavy armor and arent omnimechs.

Clan tech is better, GET USED TO IT. Clan didnt lose their tech, they had 300 years to improve, the IS(except Comstar) regressed their tech.

missiles launchers are smaller, lighter, often use streak tech.
ballistics are smaller, lighter, ultra ACs replace normal ACs
Lasers are smaller, lighter, are all ER, but have high heat generation.

Ferro Fibrous armor, endo steel chassis, xl engines, double heat sink, all take less space than IS versions.

clan mechs can put on more weapons/ammo/electronics using the same weight, and their weapons perform better.

"Better is Better" should be the clan scientists motto.

Edited by BlazeKaiser, 20 June 2012 - 05:31 PM.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Dasomen, on 20 June 2012 - 01:43 AM, said:

snip

BlazeKaiser, on 20 June 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:

snip

didn't you guys read a few pages ago how a game such as CBT/MWO is not equal to real life, real history so none of that can be used in its defense, and because canon creation is arbitrary you can't defend itself with itself either. <sigh>

[Karl Streiger]

@BlazeKaiser
you are right a clan mech can carry more weapon as he maybe able to fire save. For example the hated Timber Wolf Prime.
You have LRM 20s and 2 Large ER Laser - that deal a punch like a IS PPC at better range - firing all 4 weapons and your mech run hot on the board - means even when fired during a time of 10 secs - your mech is hot - firing them at the same moment may result in a shutdown.

So while this payload may more than enough for a IS - Assault Mech (you need for example a Banshee to come with) - the Timber Wolf has some short range weapons that have all different ranges - resulting in a mech with at least 4 or 5 FLCs to work at optimum.

@Demona
Rommel vs Patton is the battle vs AC 20 and AC 10 but more armor. I think the Patton will made it because better range in a tank duell is always better than dealing more damage at short distances - the rest is luck.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 21 June 2012 - 01:30 AM.

[JackCrow]

Well, actually, take one look at the record sheet of Maddog or a Hellbringer and tell me with a straight face that as heavy mechs, those things did not trade armor for more weapon space. That's the general theme with clan Omnis. Freaks like the Timber Wolf have alot of everything and they are just flat out better. But that mech is not supposed to be as common as most wish it to be. I just looked at my copy of the Clan Wolf sourcebook, even the Clan that is responsible for designing and manufacturing it doesn't have that many of them and this is a fairly old mech that has existed in Clan space since 2950 or so...

But when I am playing battle tech if I am using a mech like a Hellbringer then I move it around as much as possible to make it as hard to hit as possible because that make cannot take much punishment before suffering some critical hits.

A mech like that can have targeting computer (5 tons), and an AMS with ammo, and a bunch of other stuff that displaces armor. I think a Hellbringer only has 10 points of armor on each arm! One hit with a PPC and then next time that spot gets hit, it could be a critical.

I realize that MWO is going to be a direct translation from BT, but that is how I would keep the online multiplayer experience balanced. Make clan mechs sacrifice some armor and force the pilot to play drive their mech better or else..

BlazeKaiser, on 20 June 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:

clan mechs dont sacrifice armor. the problem is that frontline clan omnimechs often have XL engines, so any part of the torso, not just the center, can damage the engine=boom. no xl engine, alot tougher torso.

Second line often dont have xl engines and are built much more for long lasting, using energy weapons, heavy armor and arent omnimechs.

Clan tech is better, GET USED TO IT. Clan didnt lose their tech, they had 300 years to improve, the IS(except Comstar) regressed their tech.

missiles launchers are smaller, lighter, often use streak tech.
ballistics are smaller, lighter, ultra ACs replace normal ACs
Lasers are smaller, lighter, are all ER, but have high heat generation.

Ferro Fibrous armor, endo steel chassis, xl engines, double heat sink, all take less space than IS versions.

clan mechs can put on more weapons/ammo/electronics using the same weight, and their weapons perform better.

&quot;Better is Better&quot; should be the clan scientists motto.

[William Knight]

8 clanners to 16 IS should be a good fight (or 10-14)