198 replies to this topic

[BlazeKaiser]

Yes often the Default Omnimechs are built with weaknesses, mainly low default armor, low ammuntion, and the XL engines. Didnt I mention that?

IS mechs were often packed with standard armor and several tons of ammunition, and before the Tech Revival of the 1940s, just standard equipment, making them underequipped but solid.
--------------
Ultimately the frontline omnimechs are gonna **** people off. Standard mechs wont be able freely switch ballistic weapons with Laser weapons, Omnimechs will. Omnimechs would actually be cheaper to repair.

the maximum armor of a clan mech is no less than a standard mech. Thats my main point. That clanners just relied more on ferro fibrous armor and massive firepower/speed to do major damage in a short ammount of time.

The Increased cost of Clan equipment would be countered by increased income and possibly cheaper repair of an omnimech, if it is one.

[JackCrow]

BlazeKaiser, on 21 June 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

Yes often the Default Omnimechs are built with weaknesses, mainly low default armor, low ammuntion, and the XL engines. Didnt I mention that?


The Increased cost of Clan equipment would be countered by increased income and possibly cheaper repair of an omnimech, if it is one.

You could have stopped there. Why do you think those Omnis come with low default armor? That was for BALANCE and the sheer fact that Most of the goodies that make omnis so good also take up space. On Omnis why do you think Ferro Fibrous is listed in slots for critical hits instead of just a "roll again"? The way I understand it, it there because it takes up space.

Let's compare a 65 ton Hellbringer with a 50 IS Crab

Center Torso

Hellbringer has 17 points of armor

Crab 18

Arms

Hellbringer 11

Crab 14!

Legs

Hellbringer 15

Crab 22

The IS mech weighs 15 tons less, and had more exterior frontally than the Hellbringer.

I would still take the Hellbringer for the weapons, but if this game mirrors battle tech even somewhat faithfully then some noob in Hellbringer will get smoked buy a competent player in an IS mech.

If you have a competent player in each mech then you will just have a much more interesting fight.


You can still have a superior mech with less armor, you just can't use it the same way.

[DreadDjinn]

The weakness of the clans has always been flexibility. They can win 2:1 if it's a straight up battle.

What I'd propose is this:

Give people the choice of all tech. However, an all-IS team gets a certain amount of "supply depots" to reload and rearmor.

It's actually canonical as well. IS units regularly staches supply depots everywhere to whittle down clan units during running battles.

[BlazeKaiser]

Yes the supplies were a major factor. Clans often used heavy ammunition configurations and little foresight leaving many fights blitz that ran down. The mighty Timber Wolf is alot weaker when its down just to its lasers.

as for the armor. I keep pointing this out. the clan didnt equip heavy default armor to their mechs, mainly the omnis.

the Hellbringer for example it quite lightly armored for its weight class. even with the advanced chassis and parts, it still devotes much of its capacity to firepower like double er ppcs and 86kph speed.

the crab on the other hand is slower, using standard lasers, single heat sinks, and it runs hot.

the Hellbringer could be armed in a variety of ways, but default its got low defense, high offense, same for other clan mechs as they were configured. the second line mechs were much more often equipped with armor over speed and lasers over solid weapons.

Edited by BlazeKaiser, 25 June 2012 - 03:33 PM.

[gamesguy]

Haakon Valravn, on 18 June 2012 - 04:26 PM, said:

Every single multiplayer title with a 'Juggernaut' mode.

That's a game mode, one of many, and not the only mode that you can play.

If MWO had two modes, one where clan had absurd advantages and one where they didn't, how many IS players do you think would join the first mode?

Quote

Also: Sherman versus Panther is irrelevant, if your Panthers are being tossed around like a child's playthings by ship-to-shore fire (as occurred to many of the Panzers to actually show up for the party in Normandy) or shot up by P-51s well behind the front lines. (For T-34 versus Panther, sub God-of-War batteries and Il-2s, respectively.)

Actually Rommel kept his armor in reserve(which was the best doctrine anyways) and well off the beaches. Off-shore fire didn't really do much except soften up the static defenses on the beaches.

Likewise, the effectiveness of CAS against armor during WWII was greatly exaggerated. In general bombers didn't do much to tanks, what they were good at is shooting at logistics columns. There was a saying back then, air support is good vs tank divisions, but not tanks.

Edited by gamesguy, 26 June 2012 - 01:07 PM.

[GHQCommander]

Balance does not even need to be mentioned, it goes without saying.

If/when clan is introduced, the balance treatment will be no different from what is already in the game. Designed and developed to suit this MMO. Not a table.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

gamesguy, on 26 June 2012 - 12:40 PM, said:

Real world history

If there’s one thing I’ll ‘whine’ about, its debating history and historical accuracy in a video game forum of giant robots, the far future, and fictitious events. Help stop historical misappropriation, theres a time and a place for this – and it’s not here.

[Forren]

Roc, on 12 June 2012 - 10:18 AM, said:

I think that Clan 'Mechs should just become destroyable, if its destroyed you lose it forever. This should keep people from exploiting it. And only allow Clan weapons to be mounted on Clan 'Mechs and IS Omnimechs.

The IS don't get OmniMechs for another 10 years or so. Clan 'Mechs themselves aren't necessarily Omnimechs either, just the popular ones.

EDIT: Wow autopager took a dump on me and didn't load like 5 pages..

Edited by Jazeera, 26 June 2012 - 04:38 PM.

[JackCrow]

The Crab is actually quicker than the Hellbringer when it comes to walking. It can walk 6 and run 8. Hellbringer can walk 5 and run 8.

BlazeKaiser, on 25 June 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

Yes the supplies were a major factor. Clans often used heavy ammunition configurations and little foresight leaving many fights blitz that ran down. The mighty Timber Wolf is alot weaker when its down just to its lasers.

as for the armor. I keep pointing this out. the clan didnt equip heavy default armor to their mechs, mainly the omnis.

the Hellbringer for example it quite lightly armored for its weight class. even with the advanced chassis and parts, it still devotes much of its capacity to firepower like double er ppcs and 86kph speed.

the crab on the other hand is slower, using standard lasers, single heat sinks, and it runs hot.

the Hellbringer could be armed in a variety of ways, but default its got low defense, high offense, same for other clan mechs as they were configured. the second line mechs were much more often equipped with armor over speed and lasers over solid weapons.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

JackCrow, on 27 June 2012 - 01:11 AM, said:

The Crab is actually quicker than the Hellbringer when it comes to walking. It can walk 6 and run 8. Hellbringer can walk 5 and run 8.

that doesnt make sense. The movement curves are 2/3 - 3/5 - 4/6 - 5/8 - 6/9 - 7/11 - 8/12 - 9/14 and so on
in this case, the crab is the same speed. CRB-27 always moved 5/8, it's advanced tech was only FF armor and the Dalban K electronics package. The succession era CRB-20 lost the FF armor resulting a slight loss of protection but is identical. Unless you also take into consideration of the loss of the Dalban K's more advanced functions.

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 27 June 2012 - 06:31 AM.

[JackCrow]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 27 June 2012 - 06:28 AM, said:

that doesnt make sense. The movement curves are 2/3 - 3/5 - 4/6 - 5/8 - 6/9 - 7/11 - 8/12 - 9/14 and so on
in this case, the crab is the same speed. CRB-27 always moved 5/8, it's advanced tech was only FF armor and the Dalban K electronics package. The succession era CRB-20 lost the FF armor resulting a slight loss of protection but is identical. Unless you also take into consideration of the loss of the Dalban K's more advanced functions.

You're right about one thing. The movement is wrong. But the CRB-45 is a 6/9. I actually have 3050 unabridged on my IPad and I looked it up. Other models are a 5/8.

His original assertion that mech is slower is actually still wrong if it moves as fast as a Hellbringer.

[Skyefox]

Balancing the Clans against the IS during the initial addition of the Clans could be simpler than anyone is realizing. Some starter ideas:
Clan spawns on the map could be at a geographical disadvantage, whether due to height, blocked terrain (the Clans tend to field a much lower number of jump capable Mechs), or simply being a greater distance to an objective.

In the traditional role of invaders, the Clan side of things could mean they actually respawn LATER or have longer wait times than their IS counterparts.

As stated by those knowledgable poster before me, the numbers game is both canon and an effective means of balance. The bidding system, if actually implemented, would be incredibly amusing to me.

There's still the matter of who, or how, Clan "players" will be determined, whether it be a nominal fee, or a leaderboard, or even random draw. If every 3rd and 4th player on a leaderboard (3rd-4th, 6th-8th, 9th-12th, etc) was selected, you'd find someone hard pressed to manipulate the scoring system to get clan Tech. This also means that the best players won't get the best technology either, also important in terms of balancing.

There's plenty to do when it comes to balance other than bend/break canon to make it work.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

JackCrow, on 27 June 2012 - 06:40 AM, said:

You're right about one thing. The movement is wrong. But the CRB-45 is a 6/9. I actually have 3050 unabridged on my IPad and I looked it up. Other models are a 5/8.

His original assertion that mech is slower is actually still wrong if it moves as fast as a Hellbringer.

yes, the CRB-45 is a 6/9, the variant made by the wobbies past the 3065 mark that carries 3 light PPCs and some such; but I specifically mentioned the two variants that have 5/8 and the CRb-27 is relevant to the clans for timeline purposes. CRB-45 is roughly 20yrs in the future.

I think the thing to take away is that the hellbringer is a 65ton mech that packs the firepower it has onto a chassis that is able to move 5/8 and has things like DHS/FF.

[Skyefox]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 27 June 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

yes, the CRB-45 is a 6/9, the variant made by the wobbies past the 3065 mark that carries 3 light PPCs and some such; but I specifically mentioned the two variants that have 5/8 and the CRb-27 is relevant to the clans for timeline purposes. CRB-45 is roughly 20yrs in the future.

I think the thing to take away is that the hellbringer is a 65ton mech that packs the firepower it has onto a chassis that is able to move 5/8 and has things like DHS/FF.

Hellbringer has standard armor, standard chassis. XL engine and double strength heatsinks. Hence the 28.5 tons, barely more than the Mad Dog, which carries 8.5 tons of FF. 128 points of armor versus 163, for half a ton of pod space.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Skyefox, on 27 June 2012 - 10:37 AM, said:

Hellbringer has standard armor, standard chassis. XL engine and double strength heatsinks. Hence the 28.5 tons, barely more than the Mad Dog, which carries 8.5 tons of FF. 128 points of armor versus 163, for half a ton of pod space.

ok, I'm corrected on the FF. but Clan DHS are 1 crit smaller, and the XL by 2, combine that with the space saved with CER PPCs..and it does make a difference.

[Skyefox]

You just have to get through that paper thin torso armor and you're good to go.Hellbringer would not be my preferred Clan ride, to be sure.

[JackCrow]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 27 June 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

yes, the CRB-45 is a 6/9, the variant made by the wobbies past the 3065 mark that carries 3 light PPCs and some such; but I specifically mentioned the two variants that have 5/8 and the CRb-27 is relevant to the clans for timeline purposes. CRB-45 is roughly 20yrs in the future.

I think the thing to take away is that the hellbringer is a 65ton mech that packs the firepower it has onto a chassis that is able to move 5/8 and has things like DHS/FF.

But the bottom line is that it isn't slower, it is 15 tons lighter AND it does have more armor. Which was my original point.

If you're using the Hellbringer Variant that has two PPCs, if you fire both and run on the same turn, you're probably looking at -1 movement the next turn. Every time I have used a Crab, I have been surprised by how much punishment it can take, and not having to worry about an ammo explosion is quit nice.

But this is stupid in that they never fully port TT concepts to real time.

[JackCrow]

Skyefox, on 27 June 2012 - 10:58 AM, said:

You just have to get through that paper thin torso armor and you're good to go.Hellbringer would not be my preferred Clan ride, to be sure.

The thing is a great idea on paper. A sexy looking mech bristling with cool stuff like A pods, AMS, targeting computers etc. But the thing is a walking coffin.

I'll take a Summoner A.

[Skyefox]

Storm Crow A is my goal. I'd ride in that all game, every game.