66 replies to this topic

[Team Leader]

Copied my suggestion from another thread by StandingCow in in the feature suggestions, but i think its valid here in gameplay balance as well. ok here are my thoughts on making SHS viable without making them dissipate more heat or other redundant "fixes" like that.

THIS POST IS NOT TO SUPPORT SHS BEING EQUAL OR BETTER TO DHS. DHS ARE IN FACT AN UPGRADE. THIS POST IS TO EXPLAIN HOW SHS COULD BE IMPLEMENTED AND REDESIGNED SO THAT THERE WOULD ACTUALLY BE MERITS TO TAKING SHS OVER DHS, LEADING TO MORE PLAYER CHOICE, AND DEEPER CUSTOMIZATION. This post supports DHS and SHS not having a "good vs crap" relationship but a "this vs that" difference.

I think, DHS mechs should have their heat capacity capped at 30 heat. Any more than that and they shutdown and take damage. This can be increased with the perks or whatever the skill trees are called. They should be preferred for brawler DPS builds who have to keep a close eye on their heat but bleed it off fast. Maybe they could add .5 to the overheat threshold or something, whatever works best after testing. They would also probably be able to be buffed back up to full 2.0, to make up for the reduced threshold.

However, SHS should increase the heat capacity by 1 each, so a mech with 10 SHS would have a heat cap of 40 already. This should also be tested to make sure its not excessive. This would be good for boating or sniper builds, using hot ballistics or large energy weapons, but their slower cooling would mean they have to stay in cover for longer and can't take shots as often, but can put out bigger burst damage without overheating and damaging themselves. However it could not be sustained for very long.

Alternatively, I think you should be able to "pad" weapons with SHS, making them produce less heat per shot for that one weapon, while DHS only cool the whole mech and cannot buff individual weapons. So you could tune or link your SHS to all cool off just one weapon if you want, to the point where it would produce 15% or so of its base heat, but your other weapons would get even less actual cooling because they arent getting dedicated "whole mech dissipation". For this alternative, weapons might even have SHS slots, like engine slots, to implement this functionality. This saves crits as an added bonus and could even increase the HP of the weapon.

For an example of the linking and slotted SHS, you place a PPC on your mech. A standard PPC has 3 HS crit slots, (same as ER LL, LPL, while ERPPC has 4 slots!) only accessible if you have SHS installed. You can place 3 tons of heat sinks *IN* the PPC. They don't take up space, just like engine slotted ones, but still take weight. For each heat sink you put in with the weapon, it lowers the firing heat by one, increases item HP by 2 (this would give crit seekers a bigger role), and dissipates 1.5 times the heat, but ONLY from the PPCs heat. For the rest of the mech, they dissipate only .5 heat per second! So in the readout while firing all your weapons, it might spike to 33%, go quickly down to 29%, then continue crawling down at a slower speed, as the PPCs heat is bled off first and then the slotted HS start their work on the rest of the mech.

Those are my thoughts, as with every suggestion numbers would have to be tuned, but I think the general statement is clear. I brought up this suggestion because I don't remember seeing anything like this sort of concept, so I don't think it's beating a dead horse. Hopefully more of a dead zebra, maybe even a live one! Anyways, like this OP if you think it's a good idea or comment if you think it's not or it should be changed or if you think I should add a poll or something. The intention is to have this implemented with the general #saveMWO TTK buffs like much stronger internals, different armor types, etc. stuff that adds depth and diversity while making stock builds somewhat bearable.

Holy crap that was a lot to write on an iPad hope you guys enjoy it and provide constructive feedback



For those who believe DHS should always be an upgrade and should always 100% outclass SHS, why would we even have SHS in the game in the first place if its a required part of mech design? Why dont mechs all just come stock with DHS? Currently SHS have less place in the game than flamers, small pulse lasers, SRM2s, FF on anything but a light mech, NARC, and Command Console! This is unacceptable game design! Forget the lore, support player choice and build diversity!

Edited by Team Leader, 29 July 2013 - 08:20 PM.

[Kunae]

No.

DHS are a technological advancement on SHS. They are supposed to be better.

To say that SHS should be "viable" once DHS have come out, is like saying that VHS-tapes should still be viable in the era of DVD's. Clan DHS would be the equivalent of Blu-Rays, in this analogy.

[Team Leader]

Kunae, on 29 July 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

No.

DHS are a technological advancement on SHS. They are supposed to be better.

To say that SHS should be "viable" once DHS have come out, is like saying that VHS-tapes should still be viable in the era of DVD's. Clan DHS would be the equivalent of Blu-Rays, in this analogy.

Because screw all new players or people who want variety, right?

Some things have to be done to make a game fun and balanced. Just because a player plays longer they unlock the Uber DHS and never have to look at singles or weigh options again. That's BORING.

[Kunae]

Team Leader, on 29 July 2013 - 08:12 AM, said:

Because screw all new players or people who want variety, right?

Some things have to be done to make a game fun and balanced. Just because a player plays longer they unlock the Uber DHS and never have to look at singles or weigh options again. That's BORING.

So you're still using your VHS player?

How about your 8-track tapes?

This is a silly issue. DHS should be at 2.0, and SHS are obsolete.

[Damocles69]

Basically... yes

[Master Q]

The thing that's supposed to hold DHS back is crit space (at least, before we get to Clan DHS, which are basically 0.5-ton Singles in 2-packs). The mechs that load out IS DHS need to load out less weapon space.

In reality, this is why PPCWarrior Online has become the current meta. 2x PPC is the same damage as an AC20 but at longer range and without having to slot ammo, and it can be loaded onto a chassis with space for 3-5 internal DHS (the equivalent of 9-15 actual crit spaces) easily.

So compare:

• AC20, plus enough ammo for 21 shots: 13 slots, 17 tons.
  
  • Or if you want over 30 shots, 15 slots 19 tons.
• 2x PPC, plus 3 DHS above what's in the engine: 17 tons, 15 slots. And most mechs with a large (5-slot) engine can get by on only 2 extra DHS.
  
  • Oh and before I forget, your enemies can "crit" your DHS but you never have to worry about an ammo explosion coring your mech or blowing out a leg while packing PPCs instead of that AC20.

If DHS were "external only" and all internal heatsinks regarded as single (how the heck do they fit those gigantic DHS into an engine anyways???) that would save a lot of the confusion and make people watch their heat a bit more on builds.


I recognize that PGI were trying to simplify things and were trying to make certain things for engines easier, but the ability to slot in DHS into the engines is part of what's making the boating mechanics so viable right now.

Edited by Master Q, 29 July 2013 - 08:28 AM.

[Team Leader]

Master Q, on 29 July 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

I recognize that PGI were trying to simplify things and were trying to make certain things for engines easier, but the ability to slot in DHS into the engines is part of what's making the boating mechanics so viable right now.

Does anyone even.. Read... What I write..

[Team Leader]

Kunae, on 29 July 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

So you're still using your VHS player?

How about your 8-track tapes?

This is a silly issue. DHS should be at 2.0, and SHS are obsolete.

Ok first sometimes actually yes I do. And this isn't about one being better than the other. Obviously it is clearly that way now. I'm asking for something DIFFERENT, not better. Something that gives more player choice and makes different builds actually functional based on how you want to be using them. Using your analogy, it would be like if every VHS was in 3D while DVDs were only ever 2D. Singles vs. doubles should be a choice that a player can make and be effective with either one, and this is one way to go about it. If you don't want to use SHS, ever, them whatever this thread isn't for you and you can keep using DHS as much as you want.

[Kunae]

Team Leader, on 29 July 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

Ok first sometimes actually yes I do. And this isn't about one being better than the other. Obviously it is clearly that way now. I'm asking for something DIFFERENT, not better. Something that gives more player choice and makes different builds actually functional based on how you want to be using them. Using your analogy, it would be like if every VHS was in 3D while DVDs were only ever 2D. Singles vs. doubles should be a choice that a player can make and be effective with either one, and this is one way to go about it. If you don't want to use SHS, ever, them whatever this thread isn't for you and you can keep using DHS as much as you want.

With PGI's demonstrated inability to do anything correctly, it is my opinion that we shouldn't suggest even more overly complicated, and unnecessary mechanics, for them to fugger up.

[General Taskeen]

Yes, it can be done, perhaps with a different and abstracted heat scale. MW:LL is one example of a Mech game that did balance SHS and DHS accordingly. An Awesome variant in that game, for example, with 3 ER PPC's and only SHS dissipates heat fast enough to be viable.

But again, it all comes down to an abstracted heat scale. PGI is sticking too close I think to the TT 30-60 scale and trying to simulate it by increasing heatcap with heatsinks. I think that is a backwards approach, when past Mech Warrior games were better with heat sinks that did not raise the heat cap.

[Skyfaller]

Kunae, on 29 July 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

No.

DHS are a technological advancement on SHS. They are supposed to be better.

Correction: They are supposed to be better in heat dissipation not in everything. In TT the DHS cooled down more heat than the SHS thats all.

In MWO the simplest fix would be to make the SHS be 1.0 dissipation, 2.0 capacity while the DHS are 2.0 dissipation and 1.0 capacity. Engine heatsinks will always be 1.0 capacity, 1.0 dissipation.

This way the external heatsinks (this includes any heatsink you plug into the engine..those are not internal engine sinks) will have the closest performance to TT heatsinks.

The singles will give you more heat capacity but you have to pay in tonnage and slots for them. The DHS will have significantly better heat dissipation but you pay in slots and tonnage.

Once you run the math you will notice the SHS and DHS will be roughly equivalent EXCEPT that the DHS will be far better suited for sustained fire mechs and SHS will be far better suited for spike damage&support mechs (lrms and snipers mainly). The DHS comes out on top in any prolonged fire situation (aka 10 or more seconds) and the SHS comes on top for support and opportunistic fire situations.

Balanced..yet different..and DHS IS better overall but the SHS is not completely useless as it is now in MWO.

[Kunae]

General Taskeen, on 29 July 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

Yes, it can be done, perhaps with a different and abstracted heat scale. MW:LL is one example of a Mech game that did balance SHS and DHS accordingly. An Awesome variant in that game, for example, with 3 ER PPC's and only SHS dissipates heat fast enough to be viable.

But again, it all comes down to an abstracted heat scale. PGI is sticking too close I think to the TT 30-60 scale and trying to simulate it by increasing heatcap with heatsinks. I think that is a backwards approach, when past Mech Warrior games were better with heat sinks that did not raise the heat cap.

Yeah... PGI sure has tremendous skill in taking simple concepts and turning them into something all bass-ackwards.

[Villz]

u guys are fools....

the problem was never alpha boats the problem was that mechs heat capacity was so high,

SHS and DHS should have the same 1.0 to capacity

If you did this you could buff doubles to proper 2.0 dissapation (1.4 currently)

this would bring them both closer in line with each other whilst not making DHS trash

Edited by Villz, 29 July 2013 - 08:59 AM.

[Lootee]

Set the game in 3025 if you want SHS to be used.

Builds using high heat lostech weapons require DHS and Clan tech even more so. The post 3050 era is supposed to see SHS almost disappear from use.

Nerf DHS even more and you'll just see the game go back to gauss rifle and small laser central like it was in closed beta.

The main reason SHS seem so terrible is because of the jacked up firing rates but TT heat dissipation. People are mostly running DHS with cooler oldtech weapons to make up for the extra heat from firing 3 times as fast.

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 29 July 2013 - 09:15 AM.

[SmithMPBT]

Villz, on 29 July 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

u guys are fools....

the problem was never alpha boats the problem was that mechs heat capacity was so high,

SHS and DHS should have the same 1.0 to capacity

If you did this you could buff doubles to proper 2.0 dissapation (1.4 currently)

this would bring them both closer in line with each other whilst not making DHS trash

And you wonder why noobs stay away from the forums? Lets try and be respectful atleast while people are looking.

Anyway Alpha boats are indeed a problem, BUT heat dissipation is just one solution. Hard point limitations is another. Heat nerfs can't fix everything.

[Team Leader]

PanchoTortilla, on 29 July 2013 - 09:05 AM, said:

Set the game in 3025 if you want SHS to be used.

Builds using high heat lostech weapons require DHS and Clan tech even more so. The post 3050 era is supposed to see SHS almost disappear from use.

Nerf DHS even more and you'll just see the game go back to gauss rifle and small laser central like it was in closed beta.

Uh, just where did I say anything about nerfing DHS?? IF anything with the new system they should get a buff to the full 2.0 to make the choices even more competitive

[Team Leader]

Kunae, on 29 July 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

With PGI's demonstrated inability to do anything correctly, it is my opinion that we shouldn't suggest even more overly complicated, and unnecessary mechanics, for them to fugger up.

I cant argue with that. But, assuming a competent dev team, I think this solution would add more depth to the game and mechlab as well as defined roles. Plus they could reuse some of the stuff for slotting HS into an engine, and also reverse engineer (and hopefully remove) Pauls ghost heat system, so its not like they would be starting from scratch.

[Lootee]

Team Leader, on 29 July 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

Uh, just where did I say anything about nerfing DHS?? IF anything with the new system they should get a buff to the full 2.0 to make the choices even more competitive

Going from +1.4 heat cap to +0.0 heat cap is a nerf, yes ?

[FupDup]

PanchoTortilla, on 29 July 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

Going from +1.4 heat cap to +0.0 heat cap is a nerf, yes ?

And they would also go from +1.4 dissipation to +2.0 dissipation.

[Lootee]

The main issue is the heat system not matching the firing rates. Because even if you outfit a mech with nothing but low heat oldtech weapons, the SHS are not sufficient.

The stock JR7-D is supposed to only run slightly hot if you fire the 4 medium lasers with the stock 10 SHS. But in MWO you'll burn up after 2-3 salvos. So people are running DHS just to try to make up for the +1 heat medium lasers and 3x firing rate.

You don't see very many ERLL, and many more PPCs than ERPPCs. Those are the weapons DHS was supposed to be for. So it all goes back to the borked heat system and fire rates making SHS obsolete even with oldtech weapons and stock mech configs.

It will take more than just tweaking a few values to make SHS viable with oldtech much less competitive with DHS because the deck is stacked against SHS from the very start. Making DHS less capable capacity or dissipation-wise isn't the right way to fix it in my opinion.

Fix it so mechs running a reasonable amount of oldtech weapons don't instantly burst into flame with SHS and they won't be so horribly inferior any more. Sure upgrading to DHS will be better, that's why it costs as much as a Commando to do so.

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 29 July 2013 - 09:51 AM.