23 replies to this topic

[Reslin]

This isn't about MWO but about the lore. Just how maneuverable are "Humanoid" mechs? I have heard very conflicting information. A friend of mine claims they're walking tanks. From what I read in the lore many mechs with arms/elbows can actually "Scratch their back." Some say they're about as maneuverable as the Jaegers of Pacific Rim and in one book (not sure if it's canon) supposedly a pilot backflips in one.

I have heard that they can go prone or even roll. How much is true? How much isn't? I'm just curious how in universe they function. I'm new to battletech "lore." and want to know as much as possible about mech functionality. To me Mechs in battletech are far more interesting than mechs in other series so I'd like to learn more about them in this regard. If anyone can answer my questions thanks.

[dal10]

if you want to compare to pacific rim, they are about as maneuverable as churnov alpha (the russian one).

they usually can't scratch their back. they can go prone (though it makes torso mounted weapons useless). define rolling.

[Reslin]

dal10, on 31 July 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

if you want to compare to pacific rim, they are about as maneuverable as churnov alpha (the russian one).

they usually can't scratch their back. they can go prone (though it makes torso mounted weapons useless). define rolling.

Rolling would be going prone and rolling or rolling down hill. Either one. Not something like a somersault. It would be ridiculous if they could do that. Lol

Edited by Reslin, 31 July 2013 - 05:51 PM.

[dal10]

depends on the mech. obviously the marauder can't intentionally roll over. a something like the commando probably could though.

[Famyn]

the marauder also isn't considered humanoid, just bipedal

[Solis Obscuri]

The range of movement a 'mech is capable of depends on it's design - obviously some 'mechs are designed with a more limited range of motion (in some cases, they can't even torso twist), while in others they are capable of a wide range of motions (at an extreme this includes the hyper-extending actuator quirk of 'mechs like the Quickdraw). This is partly based on the physical shape of the 'mech, partly upon the number of actuators it incorporates into its arms (the more actuators, the lesser the penalty for actions like getting up after a fall, climbing, or making a physical attack). The shape of the legs (man walker vs. "chicken walker" vs. true digitigrade) doesn't make a difference in TT play.

Additionally, the controls used in a 'mech and the skill of the pilot (and their familiarity with that chassis) figure into the equation. Many basic physical functions are programmed into the 'mech much like a macro hotkey would be, though precise interface can be used with sensor-laced gloves designed to respond to the user's motions. In extended applications, controls similar to the "waldo gloves" are used by Clanner aerotech pilots to manipulate their flight surfaces, and those are based on advanced Star League era controls, which have largely been lost in the Inner Sphere by the 3rd Succession War.

Most leg controls are articulate through the use of foot pedals combined with the neuro-helmet interface. Particularly gifted pilots may be able to do maneuvers as intricate as jumping jacks or a handstand, or taking elaborate evasive maneuvers to thread their way through enemy fire, though this is implied to be the result of both considerable natural ability and extensive training.

[Elyam]

If you are running a game of BT/MW or wishing to write about the universe, general mech movement should be considered as that of walking tanks in almost all situations. Any more 'human-like' movement should be considered a piloting-skill roll of proportional difficulty. Accomplished mechwarriors played in the MW RPG should be allowed to try moderately difficult human movements, but never truly complex ones. Someone mentioned doing a backflip - that should never enter into BT. It crosses a line (though it may be possible for a novel to describe some very odd circumstance where it occurred...but it really needs to be avoided).

Examples of possible allowed maneuvers requiring challenging piloting skill roll:
-Dive into next hex (or 30m distance) for cover
-use hand(s) to pick up delicate object or do any concentrated application of force or catch an object
-bow
-skip 1 hex (or 30m distance) sideways
-use arm or held weapon to block/parry and incoming blow

Some of these are outside of the normal rules, but in advanced MW RPG campaigns could be tried. Some are very difficult. But as you can see, these are not Gundams that can use Beam Sabers as though they are katanas with full-body Kenjutsu. Any normal human maneuvering of moderate difficulty is only possible for accomplished or even extraordinary pilots. The best core BT novels hold acts (and the mechwarriors who can make them happen) like a skip to the side or a bow in abject astonishment.

Edited by Elyam, 01 August 2013 - 09:32 AM.

[dal10]

bows would be a minimal difficulty piloting role. only quads can sidestep.

[Spokes]

"'Mech bones consist of ultra-light foamed aluminum, wrapped in silicon carbide monofilament and encased in a titanium steel shell. Modeled after human bones, 'Mech skeletons provide a flexible internal structure around which the rest of the body is built. There are between 16 and 24 "bones" in a 'Mech body, giving it less mobility and more structural cohesion than its human counterpart."

- pg 63, MechWarrior 1st Ed.


"Walking tank" is a good description. They are not as agile as the Jaegers from Pacific Rim.

The most obvious difference between a 'Mech and a human is in the lower back-- humans have a great deal of flexibility there, whereas 'Mechs have almost none. There are some instances in the novels where the authors have 'Mechs doing "shoulder rolls" and such, but a BattleMech doesn't have enough flexibility to do that. It would be like trying to somersault with a plank strapped to your back.

A 'Mech with a well jointed arm might be able to touch its back, but I think "scratch" is going a bit far. I would expect a loss of mobility at the shoulders (rigid "shoulder blades" and armor plates) and hips (rigid lower back, and again armor) relative to a human as well.

BattleMechs can go prone intentionally, and they can crawl, crouch and climb to a limited degree. I wouldn't expect any of those things to be graceful though-- picture a human wearing a fairly heavy and rigid suit of armor. They can roll over (start on back, end on belly) but not forward. Bipedal 'Mechs can sidestep to a very limited degree, but that's something you would see in a repair bay and not on the battlefield-- only quads can sidestep at any speed.

Jumping jacks, maybe. Handstands, no way.

As an aside, one of the unique aspects of BattleMech mobility is the gyroscope. It's essentially a giant flywheel that is normally allowed to rotate freely in its housing, but if the 'Mech's computer detects a fall it can lock one or more of the rotational axis and help the machine keep its balance through the magic of angular momentum. That's where the neurohelmet comes into play-- feedback from the helmet helps the computer decide if the loss of balance is intentional (a sharp turn or a lunge in melee) or an accident. This keeps the system from latching onto the gyro at the wrong moment.

[dal10]

which is basically why i said it was like the first gen jaeger. not as maneuverable.

[Overkill C7]

My understanding is that a mech's mobility is dependent on the physical design and size. I think and Atlas would be a lumbering tank where as the Commando could actually get down and crawl to some degree if need arises. The technology that's presented in the games is a long ways off but when it is developed I think it will be pretty amazing. If you ever watch some of the modern construction vehicles in use it's already amazing at how smoothly some of them move. A well trained/experienced operator can even make it look like it's "alive". Little off topic...after see'n Pacific Rim my question is what's keep'n them from make'n a Battletech movie(s)? There's a "universe" of stories and background for them to pull from and prequels and sequels are a give'n.

[dal10]

would be a lot more difficult to make the dramatic fight scenes with battletech. tbh with modern america a gundam movie would work better.

[Reslin]

Thank you everyone for all your posts. This has been very informative! Especially your post Spokes. I really enjoyed that and gleamed a lot of information from it.

[Elyam]

dal10, on 01 August 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

bows would be a minimal difficulty piloting role. only quads can sidestep.

It's already established in the lore that making a mech bow is so difficult as to be shocking to those mechwarriors who witness a pilot pulling it off. Differences of opinion on this subject will likely relate to how much stock one puts into the key BT novels as guides to the realities of the BT universe. I put as much stock into them as I do the core rules in any case where there isn't an outright contradiction. Morgan Kell's and Yorinaga Kurita's moments of bowing in the Warrior series are extremely important to BT lore.

Sidestep and other abnormal maneuvers should be allowed within reason with appropriately difficult piloting checks when using the MW RPG, even when such things are not directly allowed in the BT core rules.

[dal10]

reference operation excalibur for a novice pilot executing, albeit sloppily, a bow. (smooth bowing is a whole nother story).

any significant sidestep would be impossible unless the mechs hip was constructed on a ball joint. at that weight that would be extremely difficult. looking at one of the few books i have with a cut out of mech structure. the legs are connected on a slight swivel to the mech equivalent to a pelvic bone. this allows the whole leg to swivel around enough to allow turns. a ball joint, especially one that is not directly above the leg, would have far too many shear stress points.

disclaimer, i may be misinterpreting what the image actually is, but that is what it looks like to me.

Edited by dal10, 05 August 2013 - 04:13 PM.

[Pht]

Reslin, on 31 July 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

This isn't about MWO but about the lore. Just how maneuverable are "Humanoid" mechs? I have heard very conflicting information. A friend of mine claims they're walking tanks. From what I read in the lore many mechs with arms/elbows can actually "Scratch their back." Some say they're about as maneuverable as the Jaegers of Pacific Rim and in one book (not sure if it's canon) supposedly a pilot backflips in one.

It's hard to establish a basline of how manuverable they are. I will say that they're NOT walking tanks. They share virtually no structure similarities with tanks at all.

They're built around (for bipedals) a pretty humanoid structure; they have about 16-25 bones. The arm and leg joints are very similar to human arm and leg joints, being ball type and hinge type; so they are actually capable of movign pretty well.

Thing is, this doesn't normally happen, as it takes an extreme amount of piloting skill to do on a battlefied. Even off a battlefield it's not easy to hit a 'mech's upper limit of mobility.

In the absolute extreme, under lab-type conditions, a pilot has gotten a mech to do a handstand.

In the upper but not so extreme as the above, you'd want to look into the source on the noisiel summer games, in which 'mechs play mech scale american football, soccer, baseball, do relay races, and some (i presume crude) martial arts stuff. I gather these are the elite of the run-of-the-mill elite pilots.

Quote

I have heard that they can go prone or even roll. How much is true? How much isn't? I'm just curious how in universe they function. I'm new to battletech "lore." and want to know as much as possible about mech functionality. To me Mechs in battletech are far more interesting than mechs in other series so I'd like to learn more about them in this regard. If anyone can answer my questions thanks.

Yes, they can go prone. They can "take a knee," and they should be able to roll (simple gyroscope + arm movements).

Normally the most you'll see on the battlefield is people ducking, sidestepping, covering their cockpit with an arm, and twisting to avoid stuff. Maybe some other things.


Here's the source for most of this:http://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/4616-battlemech-technology-an-education/

The noisiel summer games thing is in one of the mercs supplimentals.

Edited by Pht, 06 August 2013 - 03:00 PM.

[Spokes]

"This proved to be so popular that the Noisiel Summer Games were expanded to include 'Mech-scale hockey, football, baseball, and chess."

Why am I not surprised that that is a Wiz Kids supplement?

[Alaskan Nobody]

Because Wiz Kids wished they were writing for Gundam?

[DiamondSkull]

I have actually seen mechs roll in game.

Well, one they are dead and falling from a slightly bumpy mountain at least. Most of the time they just slide.

Does it count ?

[dal10]

i would play mech-scale chess.

Edited by dal10, 08 August 2013 - 06:56 AM.