42 replies to this topic

[Bhael Fire]

UPDATE: So... they axed the Hardcore mode. Big surprise. Looks like they went with Option Two.

http://mwomercs.com/...te-and-apology/


Easy vs. Hardcore Mode

As many have noticed on the public test servers, we have new "Hardcore" game modes coming down the pipe. One can easily assume this will be for the 1PV only crowd. After playing with 3PV in test and thinking about it a lot, I think the game can thrive with both 3PV and 1PV...providing that they handle it VERY carefully.

As I've been talking about for quite a while, there are two inherent problems with introducing 3PV:

1. If they split the queues into a 3PV/1PV mixed queue (Easy Mode) and a 1PV only queue (Hardcore Mode), this could potentially lead to unbalanced queues, with the majority of the players eventually migrating permanently to the 3PV/1PV queue because it's easier and wait times for matches would be shorter.

2. If they force everyone into a single 3PV/1PV mixed queue, that's not fair to skilled/experienced players who want the harder challenge of a 1PV ONLY simulation-style environment.

Obviously, Option No. 2 is out. That would kill the game before it even had a chance to get off the ground. Long-time fans and veterans of the franchise would leave in droves. As much as I love this game, even I'd have to weigh my options at that point. I most likely wouldn't "leave" the game, but I would find it very hard to spend money on it ever again.

So, that leaves us with Option No. 1 (thankfully, it's also the option PGI has stated that that they are going to pursue). However, in order for it to work some design balances must be put in place to ensure healthy numbers in both queues and to prevent players from migrating en masse to one queue or the other.

This is what I propose:

Easy Mode
- Player can switch between 3PV and 1PV (press F4)
- Stats not affected by matches; essentially it's just for fun without worrying about stats
- No Community Warfare
- No Eject option
- Caters to casual players that just want to "shoot stuff in big stompy robots"

Hardcore Mode
- 1PV Only
- Stats ARE affected by matches; it's the real deal.
- Player can participate in Community Warfare
- 20% higher XP AND C-Bills
- Player receives no rewards if they die in a match (see eject option)
- Eject option in place (see below for caveat)
- Repair and Rearm enabled (?)
- Caters to ardent fans of BT/MW and experienced players that want a little more depth


Eject Option
When playing in Hardcore mode, if the player is killed they receive no rewards for the match. However, if they manage to eject before their mech is completely destroyed, they retain their rewards. Pilots may eject at any point after the following conditions:

1. Both legs destroyed. The mech topples over instantly. The pilot has 2 seconds to punch out (about as long as it takes for the mech to hit the ground).
2. Core breach. The mech's engine is destroyed. The pilot has 2 seconds to punch out before cockpit temperatures cook them to death.
3. Cockpit destroyed. The pilot is killed instantly unless they have a command console. In which case, they may eject at any point or continue to fight. However, if the mech's head takes any additional damage during that time, the pilot is killed.
4. Critical damage. The mech pilot may punch out any time after their mech sustains critical damage, however they receive a -20% XP and C-Bill penalty for Pre-Mature Ejection.

Auto-Eject Option
The player may toggle auto-eject on or off. When on, the pilot will eject automatically upon the following:

1. Ammo Explosion
2. Critical Damage
3. Both legs destroyed
4. Engine destroyed

NOTE: Disconnections count as a death and the player looses their rewards for the match. Also, if the player auto ejects, they receive a -20% XP and C-Bill penalty. This penalty will help curb abuse of Hardcore mode and the Auto Eject option.

So, instead of switching to the flying camera after your mech is destroyed, you stay in 1PV view but your mech is completely disabled with no HUD and offline weapons systems. The cockpit is filled with smoke, sparks, sirens blaring and flashing emergency lights. Once the pilot punches out, they have a 1PV of the battle below them then it switches to Spectator Mode.

The logistics of ejecting needs some tweaking, but the concept is in place and would give it a practical value to the game.

Additional Thoughts...

Repair and Rearm
They could potentially bring back repair and rearm with Hardcore mode, as well for added realism. Especially with now that Easy mode is an option.

Edited by Bhael Fire, 27 August 2013 - 02:52 PM.

[Alcatraz968]

Nothing wrong with this idea. Might cause some problems for the dev's to program into the game, but should not require many resources.

Good balances option also, if all values are open for tweeting from what the stats say (Dev's only have those).

Plus, i want ejecting and watching the battle from above. Would be very cool!

[ManDaisy]

I love this idea, the carrot is always better then the stick. More reward for hardcore will establish it as the "correct" mode of play.

[Donuteater]

I like this idea quite a bit. The forced first person/eject really gets the simulator feel perfectly. It also lets a few mechs have an individual character through ejection animations, such as the catapults sideways ejection thing.

I disagree about the auto eject though. There's no reason not to turn it on and it basically removes the no-eject penalty.

Ejection also needs to have a warning, 2 seconds of "EJECT! , EJECT!" is plenty, and the spacebar is probably the best button for it, instead of hunting down the keys. This assumes the ejection prompt takes precedence over all other of betty's talking.

[Alreech]

I like the Idea, but I would add two suggestions:

Only Stock Mechs should be allowed in Easy Mode.
Just to protect new players from veterans with maxed out Mechs.

No rewards for the match is not really Hardcore, especially if you don't made a kill or even a kill assist.
That's about loosing all XPs and unlocked Skills in this Mechs Pilot tree if the Mechwarrior is killed ?
That's more Hardcore, but the XP Bonus should be justify this.

[Bhael Fire]

Alreech, on 02 August 2013 - 03:22 PM, said:

I like the Idea, but I would add two suggestions:

Only Stock Mechs should be allowed in Easy Mode.
Just to protect new players from veterans with maxed out Mechs.

There's no reason for that; Easy mode doesn't affect your stats.

Plus, the goal is to make BOTH modes appealing to players for different reasons. Ideally, both the modes should be modes that you will play depending on your mood.

This is the only way to maintain the health of server populations in both queues. If you make one obviously better than the other, the player base will all eventually gravitate to the one with more players. Then everyone loses.

NOW... with all that said, I totally think there should be a "stock mech only" option in BOTH Easy and Hardcore modes. That would be awesome.

Edited by Bhael Fire, 02 August 2013 - 04:34 PM.

[Straker]

While I dislike the idea of 3pv in principle. I sort of understand the feeling that it helps new players. So here is a thought.

Link it's use to a module, call it overhead drone or whatever. Make the module free as part of the tutorial. Because new players don't have the xp or cbills to get modules, they can use it fine. However, advanced players would need to not use another module. Which from what I am hearing is probably not worth it. Keep the current features on test the same.

[Bhael Fire]

Trying to handicap or gimp 3rd person view doesn't make much sense. Players that don't like playing with 3PV enabled should play on the Hardcore servers (which are coming soon).

[Boyinleaves]

Bhael Fire, on 02 August 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

There's no reason for that; Easy mode doesn't affect your stats.

Plus, the goal is to make BOTH modes appealing to players for different reasons. Ideally, both the modes should be modes that you will play depending on your mood.

This is the only way to maintain the health of server populations in both queues. If you make one obviously better than the other, the player base will all eventually gravitate to the one with more players. Then everyone loses.

NOW... with all that said, I totally think there should be a "stock mech only" option in BOTH Easy and Hardcore modes. That would be awesome.

Please listen to this man. Important part bolded for emphasis. Also, please implement private matchmaking.

By the screenshots I've seen and the descriptions given of 3PV on the test server, it doesn't look like it will be that helpful to new players; sounds like it will be of more benefit to veterans, and just as a means of checking oneself out in the field.

[Kibble]

I think this idea is a great starting point to make everyone happy.

The only thing I don't agree with is the 20% higher XP AND C-Bills in hardcore mode. If it's hardcore players shouldn't be getting a boost. Players should actually be getting less exp and c-bills. Everything in mechwarrior is rather expensive and as such that would reflect it.

Furthermore, everything a player gets on normal SHOULD NOT transfer over to hardcore. That would take away the abilities to exploit the cbill and xp bonus as well as mechs and equipment.

[Cherry Darling]

Kibble, on 02 August 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

I think this idea is a great starting point to make everyone happy.

The only thing I don't agree with is the 20% higher XP AND C-Bills in hardcore mode. If it's hardcore players shouldn't be getting a boost. Players should actually be getting less exp and c-bills. Everything in mechwarrior is rather expensive and as such that would reflect it.

Furthermore, everything a player gets on normal SHOULD NOT transfer over to hardcore. That would take away the abilities to exploit the cbill and xp bonus as well as mechs and equipment.

There's no way to exploit anything. The 20% XP/C-Bill increase for Hardcore is mitigated by the fact it's harder to earn rewards in Hardcore mode, especially if you die (NO rewards) and if repairs/rearming costs are factored in when you play in hardcore mode.

It levels out no matter which mode you play. I like this idea a lot!

Though, I'd suggest that critical damage conditions for auto-ejections be revised to SEVERE critical damage, like in the red. I've gotten the critical damage messages with yellow damage. That seems like a LITTLE too prudent for Auto-Eject.

Edited by Cherry Darling, 02 August 2013 - 09:10 PM.

[Kibble]

If it's so hardcore why even have the boost? Also what's stopping someone to play normal with no R&R. Raking in the Cbills and then playing hardcore against those that prefer to ONLY play hardcore? Players would just play normal, save up an *** ton of cbills and then only switch to hardcore for CW.

Seems like that could be a problem and the "hardcore" crowd could call advantage if c-bills, mechs ect get transferred over.

As I said the OP is a great starting point for things to be discussed and probably not looked at by pgi.

Edited by Kibble, 02 August 2013 - 09:25 PM.

[CeeKay Boques]

I'd like to push on this further. I've been wanting to make a video to break it down, but I'll use this post to flush it out a little bit.

You have two different : "Community Warfare"s.

1. Ladder League
2. Planetary League

(Note, these can be played by anyone, at any time)

Ladder League is your Solaris, you have rankings, cool tournaments Its 3rd Person, anything goes. You can accumulate cash, make a name for yourself. You can be a "3rd person guy" if you want and do well. Your mech is available every match. Every kill, every win counts towards the big ladder, team ladders, etc, you have seasons etc, much like many pvp games. You can have scheduled matches as well, as long as there is some sort of fix for "Let us win this time, you win next time" stuff. This is a great place to make money if you did poorly in the...

Planetary League: FFP, and a horde of other rules that apply for those seeking their simulator, and more over, a massive, unit based game.

• You, or your unit will buy dropships/jumpships. How big, means how many you can go from your "Home planet" or "faction base"
  
• How many mechs you own matters.

• The farther you are from your faction base, the longer your repairs are. (Maximum 48 hours on total destruction for 100+ Light years)
  
• ........... A. PGI, this is how you make us buy mass mechs and modules and have it mean something
  
• If you run out of your own mechs, you can still play, but you are relegated to "House mechs" (IE Stock fodder)
  
• If you are defending in your own territory, your Mechs' repair is maybe 15 minutes.
  
• Repair costs also matter on the size of your Dropship, and how far out you are. Yes you can lose money. Maybe we can add repair bays MFB and other wonderful things to the game.

3. When we drop, we drop in these 4 mech drop ships, and fight over a series of territories with goals on either side.

• Say, 3 maps Goal for Defender is to destroy the Dropship, Goal for attacker is recon the base.
  
• Conquest "Sigma/Theta/Kappa" type points can be dropship areas. You can only drop there. Lose them all, no drops come in

Here's a play example for Planetary conquest

DZ: Forest Colony
Attackers Drop, win>
Next Map> Alpine
Defenders win>
Back to Forest Colony
Defenders destroy Dropship, Mechs are sent home.

Or
DZ: Forest Colony
Attackers Drop, win>
Next Map> Alpine
Attackers win>
On to River city
Attackers Recon the base> Sets up bonuses for next planetary assault.

That kind of stuff. Totally separate from the cool ladder league, where we all just blow each other up. Learn in the minors, head to the big show.

Edited by Technoviking, 02 August 2013 - 09:28 PM.

[Bhael Fire]

Kibble, on 02 August 2013 - 09:24 PM, said:

If it's so hardcore why even have the boost? Also what's stopping someone to play normal with no R&R. Raking in the Cbills and then playing hardcore against those that prefer to ONLY play hardcore? Players would just play normal, save up an *** ton of cbills and then only switch to hardcore for CW.

It's a balancing act. We WANT people to play in both Standard and Hardcore modes all the time. That's the whole point of what I'm suggesting. Hardcore mode just means bigger risk, but bigger reward. That's pretty much standard fare in the world of gaming and gambling.

The goal, obviously, would be to equalize the two difficulty modes so that players have a reason to play BOTH at any given time depending on their mood and or current needs. This is no longer really a discussion of "is 3PV viable" as much as "how do we keep TWO separate queue's viable".

As for R&R goes, I suggested that just as an option to help balance Hardcore mode out if needed. Haven't really given much thought to it, that's why I included it as "Additional thoughts" in the OP.

[Pinselborste]

the way aiming in 3PV works now its way more hardcore than 1PV.

[Cherry Darling]

Pinselborste, on 03 August 2013 - 11:45 PM, said:

the way aiming in 3PV works now its way more hardcore than 1PV.

You shouldn't try to "aim" in 3PV...you need to switch to 1PV to aim by hitting F4.

3PV is just for getting a sense of where YOU are and where your enemies are.

This is so sad...

Seriously.

[Farix]

Cherry Darling, on 04 August 2013 - 12:34 AM, said:

:lol: You shouldn't try to "aim" in 3PV...you need to switch to 1PV to aim by hitting F4.

3PV is just for getting a sense of where YOU are and where your enemies are.

This is so sad...

Seriously.

Actually, you should be able to play an entire match in 3PV. Having a player switching back and forth between 1PV and 3PV should be discourage. The fact that it is far more difficult to play in 3PV than in 1PV defeats the purpose of having 3PV in the first place. However, I have made a set of suggestions that would (A) make it easier to play in 3PV and (B) discourage competitive players from quickly switching in and out of 3PV in order to get a tactical advantage.

Edited by Farix, 04 August 2013 - 03:35 AM.

[Kushko]

I like the ideas with one exception.

I dont think there should be any limitations on when you can eject as well as no auto eject option. Also if you lose both your legs or have ur engine destroyed (basically anything that "kills" you now) i think should already be too late to eject.
I think that would add to the risk vs reward decision. Do you risk a couple more seconds to kill your opponent or do you eject from your battered mech before its too late.

Also if you eject on a win, you pay whatever damage your mech had upon ejecting (since your side will salvage your mech), but if you eject on a loss it should be the same as total destruction of your mech (i dont mean you have to buy a new one, just max repair cost, whatever that may be ) and the enemies get a greater salvage share.

[zolop]

When Ejecting from critical damage there should be no C-Bill/XP negative penalty, thats the only recommendation I can think of. People that want to grind but still be a effective team member by taking and absorbing damage should not have penalties.

I missed the part where you can still eject after your mech is destroyed... as long as enough seconds given for pilots to press the eject key on they're keyboard I am fine with the eject idea.

Edited by zolop, 11 August 2013 - 10:44 AM.

[Scarlet Tempest]

As with most things I like a little of both columns. I prefer 1PV only but I don't like the idea of having to tack on all these other things to it 'penalties' for enjoying to having only one point of view versus a third person perspective. If anything I would really like a third option then if 1pv and 3pv is one option then 1pv with penalties like no c-bills and exp upon death + repairs is the other why not a middle of road 1pv one? maybe one with less penalties but same mechanics as in light penalties for failing to eject and no repair cost. Maybe call the 'hardcore mode' 'ranked' as it ranks your stats. and Call have a practice queue. It seems kind of harsh to go from one extreme to the other with no bridge between the two makes it REALLY hard for newer people to get into it. I think having a middle option would make this idea a whole lot better.