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The Balance Question: How Long Should Mechs Last?


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Poll: How Long Should Mechs Last? Please answer what you'd want to expect from MW:O in a comparable fight. (48 member(s) have cast votes)

Lights: The Solo "Honorable Duel" One vs One

  1. One good shot (4 votes [8.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.33%

  2. A few good rounds fired (7 votes [14.58%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.58%

  3. Slug it out closer to a minute maybe (23 votes [47.92%])

    Percentage of vote: 47.92%

  4. Make it last longer thank a minute (14 votes [29.17%])

    Percentage of vote: 29.17%

Lights: 2 or 3 to One

  1. One good shot (7 votes [14.58%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.58%

  2. A few good rounds fired (28 votes [58.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 58.33%

  3. Slug it out closer to a minute maybe (11 votes [22.92%])

    Percentage of vote: 22.92%

  4. Make it last longer thank a minute (2 votes [4.17%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.17%

Lights: Outnumbered by more than 4 to One

  1. One good shot (26 votes [54.17%])

    Percentage of vote: 54.17%

  2. A few good rounds fired (19 votes [39.58%])

    Percentage of vote: 39.58%

  3. Slug it out closer to a minute maybe (3 votes [6.25%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.25%

  4. Make it last longer thank a minute (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

Mediums: The Solo "Honorable Duel" One vs One

  1. One good shot (2 votes [4.17%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.17%

  2. A few good rounds fired (3 votes [6.25%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.25%

  3. Slug it out closer to a minute maybe (28 votes [58.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 58.33%

  4. Make it last longer thank a minute (15 votes [31.25%])

    Percentage of vote: 31.25%

Mediums: 2 or 3 to One

  1. One good shot (4 votes [8.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.33%

  2. A few good rounds fired (26 votes [54.17%])

    Percentage of vote: 54.17%

  3. Slug it out closer to a minute maybe (16 votes [33.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 33.33%

  4. Make it last longer thank a minute (2 votes [4.17%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.17%

Mediums: Outnumbered by more than 4 to One

  1. One good shot (21 votes [43.75%])

    Percentage of vote: 43.75%

  2. A few good rounds fired (23 votes [47.92%])

    Percentage of vote: 47.92%

  3. Slug it out closer to a minute maybe (4 votes [8.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.33%

  4. Make it last longer thank a minute (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

Heavies: The Solo "Honorable Duel" One vs One

  1. One good shot (2 votes [4.17%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.17%

  2. A few good rounds fired (7 votes [14.58%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.58%

  3. Slug it out closer to a minute maybe (16 votes [33.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 33.33%

  4. Make it last longer thank a minute (23 votes [47.92%])

    Percentage of vote: 47.92%

Heavies: 2 or 3 to One

  1. One good shot (4 votes [8.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.33%

  2. A few good rounds fired (19 votes [39.58%])

    Percentage of vote: 39.58%

  3. Slug it out closer to a minute maybe (20 votes [41.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 41.67%

  4. Make it last longer thank a minute (5 votes [10.42%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.42%

Heavies: Outnumbered by more than 4 to One

  1. One good shot (16 votes [33.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 33.33%

  2. A few good rounds fired (24 votes [50.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 50.00%

  3. Slug it out closer to a minute maybe (6 votes [12.50%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.50%

  4. Make it last longer thank a minute (2 votes [4.17%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.17%

Assaults: The Solo "Honorable Duel" One vs One

  1. One good shot (2 votes [4.17%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.17%

  2. A few good rounds fired (3 votes [6.25%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.25%

  3. Slug it out closer to a minute maybe (18 votes [37.50%])

    Percentage of vote: 37.50%

  4. Make it last longer thank a minute (25 votes [52.08%])

    Percentage of vote: 52.08%

Assaults: 2 or 3 to One

  1. One good shot (3 votes [6.25%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.25%

  2. A few good rounds fired (16 votes [33.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 33.33%

  3. Slug it out closer to a minute maybe (18 votes [37.50%])

    Percentage of vote: 37.50%

  4. Make it last longer thank a minute (11 votes [22.92%])

    Percentage of vote: 22.92%

Assaults: Outnumbered by more than 4 to One

  1. One good shot (14 votes [29.17%])

    Percentage of vote: 29.17%

  2. A few good rounds fired (21 votes [43.75%])

    Percentage of vote: 43.75%

  3. Slug it out closer to a minute maybe (9 votes [18.75%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.75%

  4. Make it last longer thank a minute (4 votes [8.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.33%

Pilots: Which mech would you prefer to drive? (The Favorite You want to Drive)

  1. Lights (16 votes [20.78%])

    Percentage of vote: 20.78%

  2. Mediums (26 votes [33.77%])

    Percentage of vote: 33.77%

  3. Heavies (23 votes [29.87%])

    Percentage of vote: 29.87%

  4. Assaults (12 votes [15.58%])

    Percentage of vote: 15.58%

Do you agree with the OP's balance between mech sizes?

  1. Yes (23 votes [47.92%])

    Percentage of vote: 47.92%

  2. No (please explain your opinion of what it should be) (25 votes [52.08%])

    Percentage of vote: 52.08%

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#1 Unbound Inferno

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 08:36 AM

A serious question, cause it seems there are several different opinions on it - and best I can tell, nobody's asked it.

So here's the question: How Long do you expect/want to last in a fight? Solo? Against a few? Outnumbered like hell? In what class do you think should last or be shredded so fast?

So, here's a poll and those three questions to be answered so I (and maybe PGI) to see what we want.

Three situations, and I'll give 4 options. There are 4 classes, so 12 questions to answer.
Plus one more, just to see what the public wants/likes to drive.
And the 14th, if you agree with my assumption on how I see mech class roles in general.


These questions are assuming "comparable sizes/odds/skill" assumptions, and in MW:O one mech's odds are not that far off from another in theory, with only slight advantages or disadvantages against one another.

Its all subjective I admit, as loadouts, skill and luck changes alot in a fight. But this is assuming maybe an "average" or what you'd want to see as the result in most MW:O fights.


In that theory (as I understand it);
Each class is relatively even within its own class, the upper hand, better skill or luck wins out.

Luck as in they are damaged, you are not, they don't notice you or otherwise busy doing something else letting you get the upper hand when you may not have. Counting missed shots or the unfortunate missing ammo/weapon to handle the situation is also a part of Luck.

How I see each class role:

Lights are weaker than a Mediums in a fight and I would think loose against them. They may have a shot against a Heavy and could overwhelm an poor Assault, but a good Heavy or Assault pilot could win thanks to firepower, no guarantees when approaching, but I've seen poor pilots or good pilots turnaround an odd spot.

Mediums are stronger than Lights, weaker than Heavies and unless they have the element of surprise or extreme mobility and luck an Assault could rip it apart. However a good Medium against a poor Heavy/Assault can win by skill, surprise or luck.

Heavies are usually better than Mediums, but might have trouble with Lights without a good shot in it - but that lucky good shot could ruin the Light. Unlikely to survive against an Assault unless you get the first shot or two in before them, or have friends.

Assaults are better than Heavies, and if they get the early shots back at a Medium those Assaults can handle them well. Their slower turning speeds can let a Light or fast Medium have an edge and keep out of harm's way in close quarters, but a lucky shot might win out.


The answers for the situations should be like this:

First is a shoot or be shot situation. As close to one-shot-kills if you aim well. Maybe two if you (or they) miss the right spot for one-on one. In the case of outnumbered, that number of attacks kills you. Right now that's about where we are if you are slightly outnumbered and a few alphastrikes land Directly on your CT. No-brainier on severely outnumbered, don't expect to get away if they all fire.

Second is a few good rounds - placed well - will be needed. Sort of where we are at when pinpoint alphastrikes involved, but to me that feels short for most one-on-one matches, but suitable for say being outnumbered for what you expect to last.

Third is it takes a bit, its a slugfest lasting nearly a minute to kill something. Good piloting, torso twisting and using your environment can makes you last that long. Right now its usually only Lights' difficulty to be hit and speed around corners gives them that. Nothing else tends to last longer than half a minute unless you and your opponent have a "weak" alphastrike ability or enough range/cover to take advantage of. I've seen em - and they are fun, but... tend to be rare.

Fourth is even longer than a rough minute, or what feels like one. Usually most see that as the stare down of stray long-extreme range shots where most don't connect, but I want to talk about where hits land. You can expect to spend time trying to tear a mech apart, caused by either inaccuracy or just the amount of damage needed. At this moment, This duration isn't anything I'd think to occur anywhere like a closer brawl except a Light vs Light or maybe an Assault vs Assault depending on loadouts, but now its Spider vs Anything thanks to that buggy hitbox - hoping that is fixed soon.


Please answer questions as if it was the same, or comparable class/weight fight where they are dealing damage to one another, not at extreme-range missed or glancing shots.

Edited by Unbound Inferno, 01 August 2013 - 08:37 AM.


#2 Roland

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 08:42 AM

The phrasing of the poll is kind of weird.

If you are outnumbered 4 to 1, that fight is gonna end real fast... but not because "only a few shots were fired".

The fight will end quickly because 4 mechs can fire a TON of shots in a short period of time.

#3 Sheraf

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 08:42 AM

It is all depend on the pilot skill. Medium run in front and into a focus fire group = dead, but medium that stick with the team, do good movement when needed, can last the whole match. Same with other mechs.

#4 Unbound Inferno

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 08:46 AM

View PostRoland, on 01 August 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

The phrasing of the poll is kind of weird.

If you are outnumbered 4 to 1, that fight is gonna end real fast... but not because "only a few shots were fired".

The fight will end quickly because 4 mechs can fire a TON of shots in a short period of time.

That's kind of the point - and to see what the public perception is, and what it should be like. Everybody will see different angles and thoughts on it, and should bring it up.

Maybe we can see how it should last, and somehow find a way to get that feeling into the game.

As for the poll: I'm hoping for the simple Light vs Light or Lights situation to keep it simple. Not expecting everyone to read that in the post though for the voting, so the "general idea" is all I am seeking here.

View PostSheraf, on 01 August 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

It is all depend on the pilot skill. Medium run in front and into a focus fire group = dead, but medium that stick with the team, do good movement when needed, can last the whole match. Same with other mechs.

Back to what we need to address somehow.

I want to look at Solo first, then see how teamplay and the bought time we want to see turns out.

Edited by Unbound Inferno, 01 August 2013 - 08:47 AM.


#5 Tombstoner

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 09:16 AM

Well the thing is an atlas according to TT flavor text is supposed to handle 12 x 20 tons mechs of different designs solo.
one ac-20 round to the arm of a locust will rip it off, then rip off the torso and basically almost core the mech.

but this isn't TT.... duh... no kidding..... and the power level of a 20 vs 100 tone mech is much narrower hence why mediums are kinda useless. they suffer from being to light in armor and not fast enough to make for misses and cant carry a massive alpha to compensate.

Moving to a skill base system completely changed the relationship between well everything but MWO is still way too close to TT in some ways but has jumped the shark in others. According to the PRS a light should be able to kill an assault. in fact 4 lights can just about kill off 8 assaults with a decent chance of success.

When skill based targeting is allowed to interact with the size of the mech (frontal cross section), but the protection per ton is the same, it in effect buffs the armor on the light mechs and nerfs it for the assault mech. The atlases armor is easier to hit reducing its effectiveness. on paper its one to one but if you account for skill based hit/misses more damage is done to the larger slower target.

i think armor need to be treated not 100% alblativly as it is now, but as a thickness measurement with some chance to penetrate based on cumulative number of hits per location. splash damage would work fine if mechs had 150-200 hit locations and we saw the average integrity of the arm or leg section.

how long should mechs last.. its a good question. should a light live as long as an assault. well not all assaults are created =.

Since armor is not compensated for by relative frontal areas, deliberately in fact, because 19 tones of armor with size based bonuses would be OP. need and necessary in fact to complete the transfer from TT to PC. then adjust according to fee and statistics from many many games.

I am going to go with the 1 good shot per size category. light - 1, med - 2, heavy-3 , assault- 4

The next question for the OP is what constitutes one good shot. 30, 45, 60 points of damage.

Edited by Tombstoner, 01 August 2013 - 09:18 AM.


#6 Dibster

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 10:37 AM

This man is so right it hurts. The effective armor is currently best for the Spider and worst for the Atlas. How's that for ridiculous?

#7 Unbound Inferno

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 06:18 PM

View PostTombstoner, on 01 August 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

Well the thing is an atlas according to TT flavor text is supposed to handle 12 x 20 tons mechs of different designs solo.
one ac-20 round to the arm of a locust will rip it off, then rip off the torso and basically almost core the mech.

but this isn't TT.... duh... no kidding..... and the power level of a 20 vs 100 tone mech is much narrower hence why mediums are kinda useless. they suffer from being to light in armor and not fast enough to make for misses and cant carry a massive alpha to compensate.

Moving to a skill base system completely changed the relationship between well everything but MWO is still way too close to TT in some ways but has jumped the shark in others. According to the PRS a light should be able to kill an assault. in fact 4 lights can just about kill off 8 assaults with a decent chance of success.

When skill based targeting is allowed to interact with the size of the mech (frontal cross section), but the protection per ton is the same, it in effect buffs the armor on the light mechs and nerfs it for the assault mech. The atlases armor is easier to hit reducing its effectiveness. on paper its one to one but if you account for skill based hit/misses more damage is done to the larger slower target.

i think armor need to be treated not 100% alblativly as it is now, but as a thickness measurement with some chance to penetrate based on cumulative number of hits per location. splash damage would work fine if mechs had 150-200 hit locations and we saw the average integrity of the arm or leg section.

how long should mechs last.. its a good question. should a light live as long as an assault. well not all assaults are created =.

Since armor is not compensated for by relative frontal areas, deliberately in fact, because 19 tones of armor with size based bonuses would be OP. need and necessary in fact to complete the transfer from TT to PC. then adjust according to fee and statistics from many many games.

I am going to go with the 1 good shot per size category. light - 1, med - 2, heavy-3 , assault- 4

The next question for the OP is what constitutes one good shot. 30, 45, 60 points of damage.

Well, that is the question.

What is the number that works, and how to do it?

That "good shot" could be 20. It could be 60. It all depends, but if we factor it that way, what about looking at Armor as the key culprit and solution then? Could that work?

Not say a uniform buff, but one scaling for mech sizes. Large sizes gain more armor to get the results desired with how damage is dealt currently? Numbers get crazy though.


I'm open to suggestions. I'd much rather see what we can concoct and devise here.


In the meantime, I am loving how the polls are splitting and leaning. Despite the not/agree split with my assessment of roles, what is being voted for almost seems to substantiate it.

Edited by Unbound Inferno, 01 August 2013 - 06:19 PM.


#8 Monky

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 06:28 PM

20 seconds give or take, given comparable weight classes. These are the fights I find most enjoyable, I don't really enjoy dismantling someone in less than 10 seconds, and fights that drag on forever do get a bit annoying.

#9 Donnie Silveray

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 06:30 PM

I can most likely easily kill an Atlas alone in my Raven in most grounds through the use of the aformentioned skill based gameplay. Peppering at the back armor will kill the thing eventually. As for the elephant in the room, the sheer size of the machine, it's a tricky matter that will require a great deal of retracing of steps.

PGI has realized this to certain degrees in the past:

Faster cooldown times + same TT armor values = dead fast.
Double armor resolved it to a degree, but lights had the lag shield for a very long time. That was mostly resolved as well and now lights die more often if they're not careful.
Devs noticed high alpha builds causing a good bit of havoc and implemented the Heat Scale as a way to encourage the staging of attacks over alpha striking.

All these solutions work to a certain degree, but I highly doubt they'll resolve the crisis of an Atlas being so easy to target without straying too far from the core background.

A quick idea in general i had was say what if the Atlas's CT had more armor to compensate for the size? Would it resolve most of the problems? I don't know. Raise structure HP? Certainly wouldn't hurt, these things are supposed to absorb the damage.

If anything, we're at least partly on track with how PGI wants this game. Being exposed in the open for even a second ins't entirely punishing as you can survive long enough to return to cover. This alone defines MWO compared to other FPS games. MechWarrior may have had its supply of quick kills, but the definitive MW experience is drawn out slugfests, at range or in a brawl.

#10 One Medic Army

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 06:46 PM

I see some joker answered "one good shot" for everything.

#11 Psikez

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 06:48 PM

My general vote was

1v1 - upwards of a minute (this is getting a bit long even for 1v1 though depending on weight classes)

1v2-3 - you ought be able to get a few good shots off but you should lose this fight in short fashion

1v4+ - you're likely getting your 1 shot before you're focused down to so much scrap polygons

But I am voting from the thoughts of a brawler. Sniping matches will generally take longer~

#12 Biglead

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 06:49 PM

Make it last longer than a minute. That's what SHE said!

#13 Psikez

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 06:49 PM

View PostBiglead, on 01 August 2013 - 06:49 PM, said:

Make it last longer than a minute. That's what SHE said!

Posted Image

#14 Tombstoner

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 06:57 PM

The thing is when fire rates where increased damage needed to be decreased by the same ratio to preserves the base TT values. then see how things behave and adjust accordingly for formulation work. you need to rebalance the equation. in the case of fire rate one value was changed but it increased damage output 250%. weapon damage needed to be dropped 250% to compensate or armor needed to go up 250% when pgi doubled armor it left out the extra 50% so weapons are doing more damage. this directly affects survivability and forced 100 tone mechs that are easy to hit to strip armor off the back just to live for 4-8 seconds longer but make it way to vulnerable to a light. a strait doubling of armor helped lights way more then assaults. the game needs to drop damage for all weapons and see how the game playes out.

#15 Stelar 7

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 07:36 PM

Don't drop damage, add armor. It is the same meta effect but a damage reduction comes with bad psychological side effects. People react with hostility to loss, if an ac20 hits for fifteen, or ten, it is not an ac20.

By the same psychology, everyone likes candy. So if the armor goes up agin we all get something.

Anyway, I would like to see how lights survive with proper hit detection. Can not balance firepower to armor until that is sorted.

#16 Unbound Inferno

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 07:47 PM

View PostStelar 7, on 01 August 2013 - 07:36 PM, said:

Don't drop damage, add armor. It is the same meta effect but a damage reduction comes with bad psychological side effects. People react with hostility to loss, if an ac20 hits for fifteen, or ten, it is not an ac20.

By the same psychology, everyone likes candy. So if the armor goes up agin we all get something.

Anyway, I would like to see how lights survive with proper hit detection. Can not balance firepower to armor until that is sorted.

With this, you would prefer a kind of repeated band-aid of armor increases for mechs? Perhaps scaling it instead of staying perfectly true to have Assaults last longer than Heavies or Mediums - and leave Lights as they are?

I admit, even as a bandaid solution it does make a fact for how it shapes the duration mechs can last.

#17 Stelar 7

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 08:17 PM

View PostUnbound Inferno, on 01 August 2013 - 07:47 PM, said:

With this, you would prefer a kind of repeated band-aid of armor increases for mechs? Perhaps scaling it instead of staying perfectly true to have Assaults last longer than Heavies or Mediums - and leave Lights as they are?

I admit, even as a bandaid solution it does make a fact for how it shapes the duration mechs can last.


I dislike the term 'bandaid solution'. That presumes that CoF is _THE_ solution to the mechs dying fast problem and I don't believe in single solution problems. We seem to agree that more hit points helped. I am not against scaling hit points so that assault mechs get more armor per ton than lights, or adding a small damage reduction effect for assault mechs. However I am of the opinion that a lot of light mech durability is a result of hit detection issues and not excessive armor. My main beef with getting too detailed on this is that I have a huge lack of data. My perception is that once I learned to drive it my Victor is more durable than my cataphract. Both are better able to take a hit than my Jenner and my Jenner is better at moving through an enemy group and living. I don't own any mediums yet.

All die quick to focus fire, the big ones have survived brief exposures to massed fire, and remained viable, and also been killed by excellent shooters. I would like to see the meta buff brawlers, with some advantage, so that in your face is a response to sniping that works. I think we are getting closer based on some of the successes I've enjoyed in 8 man drops, but I think Gauss dual ppc is still the best three weapons in the game. I think physical attacks, and some forward thrust on jump jets would help.

I would also like to see gravity get some better teeth for those who don't save landing thrust.

#18 Angel of Annihilation

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 09:08 PM

Lets make it simple shall we.

Mech battles are too short. I would prefer it if mechs were more durable overall.

#19 nitra

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 09:23 PM

cant help to be curt but my answer is. The mech should last for ever how long the pilot manages to pilot it well and avoid stupidity.

i.e. me for example.

i have a bj 1/x i run off alone (as usual). i come across 5 mechs 3 heavys 2 assults (sticking together for some reason)

i decide to engage . i last maybe 120 seconds if lucky .

should i last longer ? just because i feel like i can blow up everything ?

the opposite example .

i.e. me again in the bj 1/x this time for some odd reason i stick by my team (what the hell am i thinking) i engage targets that are occupied by friendly fire or other mechs maybe occasionally taking out the lone straggler lrm boat .

i usually last the whole game .

it all depends on the pilot and how one engages the enemy . expectations should be based on this not on what mech they pilot.

Edited by nitra, 01 August 2013 - 09:23 PM.


#20 xRatas

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 09:55 PM

Yep, poll options are bit weird, not voting those, sorry.

But I say light vs light and assault vs assault duels should last bit longer, medium vs medium and heavy vs heavy should be fast duels.

Basically I'd see balance like this:
Lights should avoid direct confrontation, or die easily. Only light firepower. Excellent mobility.
Mediums should die easily, but hold good firepower. If you want to do hit&runs, this should be the class for it. Good mobility.
Heavies should carry the heaviest weapon loadouts, but not that good survivability. Ok mobility.
Assaults should have easily best survivability, but worse weapons than heavies. Bad mobility.

Introducing hardpoint sizes, that could be easily done too...

But in general, I'm quite happy about the average lifetime of mechs, sometimes getting one-shot is annoying, but one-shot others is so much fun, I'd be happy to die like that every now and then too.





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