48 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

Nairdowell, on 12 June 2012 - 04:07 AM, said:

The Hardpoint schematic corresponds to the different locations of the mech (head, left & right torso, etc)... but during the video, the legs appear as hardpoints, but no slots are available..... so again, the upgrade of the SLs of a Charger to even MLs is impossible due to both slots available and weight....

Just my two cents....

Downgrading a Charger's engine to that of an Awesome would free up said weight. Putting in an XL would give even more free weight. So it's not really that simple.

Swapping out the charger's engine, adjusting it's armor, you should in theory be able to replace every small laser (except the head) with a PPC, if the rules are indeed similar to TT /w the hard point overlay.

EDIT: Another example of this problem is the Panther. A lot of people want the Panther in the game, but really, it would be a flat out inferior Jenner: It possesses the same weight, but less energy slots (only one gun, on one arm) and the same missile slot if they are based on the 'mech's original design. There's be zero point in owning a Panther except to have an inferior 'mech in every way possible, unless there's another element.. which I hope there is. It's my curiosity that lead me to start this thread!

Edited by Victor Morson, 12 June 2012 - 04:17 AM.

[Shadowscythe]

Actually I think I would even use a Cataphract (70 ton) over an Awesome lol

+'s 4 energy, 1 missile, and 1 balistic hardpoints wise...can go faster....and JUMP JETS! (btw, I love jump jets)
-'s Less possible armor, the varients actually look like they get worse (hardpoint wise) than the basic lol. one of the varients even LOSE the jump jets.

Getting this info from http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Cataphract..... a great BT TT website

Of course they could change stuff, they are Devs after all

[Victor Morson]

The CTF-1X could be turned into, exactly, a Ceaser. Which again, invalidates the need to ever actually see the Ceaser, unfortunately, as it's one of the big new 'mechs of 3049.

Edited by Victor Morson, 12 June 2012 - 04:31 AM.

[Shadowscythe]

Victor Morson, on 12 June 2012 - 04:31 AM, said:

The CTF-1X could be turned into, exactly, a Ceaser. Which again, invalidates the need to ever actually see the Ceaser, unfortunately, as it's one of the big new 'mechs of 3049.

Yep, and the Caeser not having jump jets makes it even less useful.. and doesn't have any other available varients near the timeline.....The Caeser looks better though, I'll give it that

[Grokmoo]

I don't think you can assume that the Awesome will have only 4 energy hardpoints. In fact, I'm betting it will have more. And, there will be variants with other weapons loadouts.

[Victor Morson]

I'm not; I'm assuming there will be more based on what we saw in the mechlab. However, I am also assuming it will be all energy (basically what it has, plus some.) This is based on alpha videos, though, so perhaps I'll be surprised!

That said the problem is other 'mechs have more base guns, meaning they should have more hardpoints. That's the issue if it's on based on the number of X type guns and not guns of X type size.

The most powerful 'mech they could ever present with the system would have 8 small lasers, 6 machine guns, and 6 SRM2s spread over it's body. You could literally mod it into anything at all.

[Shadowscythe]

Like take a Chameleon....

50 ton
Large Laser. 2 Medium Lasers 3 Small Lasers. 2 Machine Guns, ....with jump jets.... no reason other than looks, or 1 missile hardpoint. in using any of the other "basic" mediums

Yeah, I am sure there is a medium out there with jump jets and all 3 types of weapons

Some people will still pick others for looks at least

[PANZERBUNNY]

Victor Morson, on 12 June 2012 - 02:20 AM, said:

I should note my main reason for concern is that approaching the launch date, this isn't an issue that will bite anyone too early on. Some examples (Dragon/Centurion or Awesome/Stalker) will overlap already, but it's not a huge deal until another 10 or so 'mechs have been added to the game: There's still room for different hardpoint combinations.

Yet when this becomes an issue, people will have paid real world money for 'mechs and suddenly restricting their hardpoints or adding advantages/disadvantages to something you already own would also cause a backlash.

Effectively the whole point of bringing this up now is to try to help prevent burn out and backlash a year from now, more than the very immediate future.



The concern isn't that you would take the Stalker and add PPCs to it's impressive armament, but rather, that you would take all the guns off the Stalker and effectively turn it into a 5 ton heavier Awesome, with similar specs and the added bonus that if you so decided, you could turn it into a missile boat or any combination thereof - while the Awesome is stuck simply less hard points.

There'd be no reason to purchase an Awesome if this is the case, because the Stalker can do everything it can - and more, depending on how you modify it.



I'm pretty sure they've explained you can't move hardpoints. I'm not really following what you mean by this.

Balancing and changes as the game goes along with happen. Doesn't matter if people have spent$ on something, if things need changing, they need changing.

That is the reality of online gaming and if someone can't accept that something they invest in may be tweaked, I advise them to play for free and never spend a dime. Let the adults play and adapt to new game conditions whilst others whine and moan.

[Lumpi]

But still you have aesthetical reasons to pilot an other mech, or maybe you dont like PPC for their weight/heat/colour of beam/ noise/ minimum range and you prefer large lasers, or maybe you want a missile boat, or you cant stand missiles.... there are plenty of reasons to choose another mech design which might still be inferior in hard maths. Then there is the role warfare we dont know much about. Maybe you can fit different and more modules to the Awesome then to the Stalker. Oh and then there is heat... out of my head a Awesome can build up like 5 heat per round while the Stalker is able to accumulate up to 22 excess heat per round...
And in the video of the mechlab you can see that there are a lot more more Hardpoints available then the mechs basic loadout. The hunchback had like 3 ballistic hardpoints on its sidetorso, instead of one for it's AC...

[Victor Morson]

The role warfare/metagame stuff is the main reason I actually posted this- I'm really hoping that, in fact, it will be the thing to set different chassis apart. If some chassis have more room for say, optic upgrades, it'd make a huge impact beyond hard stats.

[GrizzlyViking]

Victor Morson, on 11 June 2012 - 11:58 PM, said:

This is a bit of an odd topic that's based around Mechlab information released thus far, and my concern for the long term impact on MWO (and thus, the community).

From what we know of the 'mech system, every gun that exists on a 'mech can be replaced, if it fits within the CBT slots, with any other gun of that type. Thus, a machine gun is a possible Gauss Rifle or AC/20. It's actually really clever and I think would be neat if they ever did a new version of Table Top, because it definitely adds flavor to the 'mechs while staying true to Table Top roots. I like it, a lot.

However, the problem that's been nagging me is a forward thinking one. Simply put, because of this situation, you'll only ever really need a handful of 'mechs to fill every possible role. For example my concern started out of my love for the Awesome: It's a great 80 tonner - one of the best in the BTU - with serious armor and energy boating capabilities. That's sweet!

However, with the slot system, this means it will simply have at least 4 energy slots, plus some additional slots (if they keep the "Gun slots + more" mechanic from the videos) with a few missile options thrown into other variants of the 'mech.

Now, this is where my concern comes into play. The Stalker, for example, has a bunch of medium lasers on it plus a bunch of missiles. The end result is the Stalker is capable of arming, easily, the 3-4 PPCs the Awesome does, plus it has 5 more tons to deal with. The Stalker has in effect rendered the Awesome entirely outdated by having the ability to field the exact same weapons package, plus wildly different ones (the slew of missile slots); it's more way more flexible with little to no drawback.

Guns being mounted on arms, and the range of arm movement could play into it sometimes for sure, but honestly, I don't think that's enough to set 'mechs truly apart and encourage people to want more. If people don't want to buy more 'mechs, PGI won't be selling mech credits. If they aren't selling 'mech credits, they won't have extra money for more content and that hurts all of us.

The problem is further compounded by similar 'mechs in close weight brackets (Centurion vs Dragon, for example) not really justifying why you'd want one over another in most cases.

So in summary I guess my question is simple: Is there going to be some factor that sets these 'mechs apart that's of yet unreleased? Will certain Chassis have the ability to take different pilot modules that might further buff it's style of play or something? For example of the Awesome can take modules to increase heat sink effectiveness and the Stalker might get modules for decreasing missile lock time, you really go a long way towards justifying the existence of both.

Right now I'm not really sure as to why I'd want more 'mechs once I pick up 8 or so (to cover all roles/weight classes) and that concerns me as I suspect expanding the 'mech library over time is a huge selling point to the game.

EDIT: I find it interesting that they didn't opt to follow the MW4 slot-level system, as that would easily justify more chassis. For example if the Stalker had 4 level 2 energy slots, it'd be able to support Medium/Large Lasers and remain true to the chassis theme, while an Awesome might have 4 level 4 energy slots, making it capable of equipping not only an array of PPCs plus extra lasers, but any combination of lasers. It really seems like the slot level thing would be a huge benefit towards encouraging people to want more 'mechs and keep the game healthy.

EDIT 2: If they retain the Atlas arm mounted lasers, I just realized you could likely get 4 PPCs entirely arm mounted on one, giving it an aiming advantage over the Awesome as well. I love the Awesome but it seems like the design plan will hurt specialist 'mechs - including this one.

I see your reasons for concern and I think none of them will be a problem. These very same concerns could be raised about MW4 as the set up in the Mech Lab is very similar. However, people using the same Mechs with the same weapons was never a significant problem in MW4. While there were some maps that afforded advantages to certain Mechs such as the laser boat Nova Cat on a cold map like Lunacy, this was not the case on most maps. The infinite number of Mech configurations combined with the creativity of thousands of players made for a diverse range of Mech chassis and configurations. Plus, here in MWO, we have the addition of the skill system. This is going to make things even more diverse than MW4 since players will have specialization of skills in addition to personal preferences, chassis, environment, weapon choices, etc. Pilot skill strengths will affect things greatly in that pilots will be choosing things to complement their pilot skills. This adds an entirely new dynamic that has not been present in any previous PC versions of MW. For these reasons I do not think that there will be any significant issues regarding these concerns.

Edited by GrizzlyViking, 12 June 2012 - 06:32 AM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

The use of mech XP will tend to limit people from swapping the chassis around as much, as will the use of Founders mechs for their bonuses. This could mean that to start with we will actually see fewer mech models in the game with more customisation. After all if you have a mech which gives you XP and C-bill bonuses then it would make sense that people would play that chassis and vary the loadouts.
It would also seem perfectly logical that they would not introduce the Caesar as you can make it from a Cataphract (first thing I did in SSW) unless it has different characteristics like torso twist or mosule slots.
There will always be the collector types who have to have at least one of each model or who want it for specific features or appearance. As things stand the MechLab has sufficient flexibility to enable the creation of anything most people could want.
I can only assume that maching the MechLab more limited would have reduced the games appeal, as far as the devs are concerned.

[Death Mallet]

I like the idea of the tiered harpoint system. . .

Or another alternative would just be to say "this hard point represents those specific criticals taken up by the existing weapon system". So you couldn't put a 3 critical weapon on a 1 critical hard point.

In any case, i hope there's more of a limitation on mounting weapons on hardpoints than has been explained so far, otherwise the OP is right that many designs will rapidly become obsolete.

[Major Tom]

Victor Morson, on 11 June 2012 - 11:58 PM, said:

However, the problem that's been nagging me is a forward thinking one. Simply put, because of this situation, you'll only ever really need a handful of 'mechs to fill every possible role. For example my concern started out of my love for the Awesome: It's a great 80 tonner - one of the best in the BTU - with serious armor and energy boating capabilities. That's sweet!

That is fortunately because currently we have only seen a handful of mechs, so we need the freedom to modify them to our needs. Although, that said, the medium weight class is still woefully under represented. We really need a Dervish and Clint to represent the essence of the medium weight class (only because we will not see the Wolverine or Phoenix Hawk).

[Redshift2k5]

Don't forget that the Awesome has arms, and the Stalker has stubs(I don't think they can move at all but still count as 'arms'). The Awesome will be able to do fast-aim with it's arm-mounted weaponry while the Stalker has to turn it's whole torso around to get a line of fire.

Also cost may be an issue, the Awesome might be cheaper to buy and maintain than the Stalker

[KuruptU4Fun]

If you're talking timeline here then yes, everything advancing will out class older mechs in time. But if you've maxed out your mech and skill trees that could very well even the playing field. If you've done that then obviously you've mastered how you use that mech in game. So while I may have an older mech, because of experience as a pilot with that mech you've still got a tactical advantage..

[Victor Morson]

Shadowscythe, on 12 June 2012 - 05:13 AM, said:

Like take a Chameleon....

50 ton
Large Laser. 2 Medium Lasers 3 Small Lasers. 2 Machine Guns, ....with jump jets.... no reason other than looks, or 1 missile hardpoint. in using any of the other "basic" mediums

Yeah, I am sure there is a medium out there with jump jets and all 3 types of weapons

Some people will still pick others for looks at least

The Chameleon would effectively be a super Hunchback thanks to the placement of it's Machine Guns. It'd be able to sport the jets and a lot more lasers on top of it, as well as a stock two ballistics (one in each torso), giving it options the Hunchie just doesn't have.

This is a good example of my concern. If the Chameleon got added to the game (which would be awesome, I've got a nostalgia spot for that 'mech after stealing and using it the whole game in CSI) it'd totally out date the Hunchback to the dust pile.

KuruptU4Fun, on 12 June 2012 - 08:01 AM, said:

If you're talking timeline here then yes, everything advancing will out class older mechs in time. But if you've maxed out your mech and skill trees that could very well even the playing field. If you've done that then obviously you've mastered how you use that mech in game. So while I may have an older mech, because of experience as a pilot with that mech you've still got a tactical advantage..

The concern isn't timeline related. For example the Chameleon we were just talking about is an old school 'mech often used for training. It's has an entirely different style and feel than a Hunchback, yet unless there is something above mechlab that gives the Hunchback an edge at it's role, the Chameleon effectively can do anything it can do but better.

Edited by Victor Morson, 12 June 2012 - 04:22 PM.

[Shadowscythe]

Another good example of a mech that would make the Awesome obsolete. Variety wise (within timeline). Unless you really want that forth energy hardpoint.
I would take it for the jump jets also

The Katana 85 ton with jump jets.
two Large Lasers, oneLB-X Autocannon/10, two SRM-6s, 1 Small Laser
so 3 enegy, 2 missile and 1 balistic.

There are plenty of mechs out there that can make pretty much any of the mechs in the game obsolete hardpoint wise.
There are plenty of REALLY good ones in a couple years (3051 or so)...Hopefully they already made the awesome so it does have more hardpoints then what we are guessing

I say guessing because, of course, all of this is speculation lol

I really hope we can get a medium mech with some jump jets in before release also. I really like jump jets

Only mechs with jump jets in right now (that I know of) are the Jenner 35ton, catapult 65ton, and cataphract 70ton.

The Dervish 55 ton with jump jets.

two LRM-10, launchers. two SRM-2 , two Medium Lasers

Of course, then it would pretty much be in the same boat as the chameleon.
More hardpoints+jump=not much point in using other mediums....

Looking more into mediums, there are WAY more mechs that have jump jets AND more possible hardpoints than the ones we have now, so I am guessing they picked the low weapons ones for specific reasons Maybe copyrights

Maybe we don't have a medium jumper yet because they can't find one that has jumping with less hardpoints.

Here we go. All 3 have jump jets.
the Griffin 1 PPC. 1 LRM-10

The Wolverine 1 Autocannon/5. 1 SRM-6 1 Medium Laser

The Enforcer 1 Autocannon/10 1 Large Laser, 1 Small Laser

Edited by Shadowscythe, 12 June 2012 - 07:54 PM.

[Zynk]

Victor Morson, on 12 June 2012 - 01:56 AM, said:

But we're talking about mechlab here. I'm assuming there is nothing stopping you from putting 33 heatsinks on a Stalker armed like an Awesome, because it's 5 tons heavier. So this isn't really applicable at all.

Correct you have 5 more tons on stalker over an awesome but your adding 13 more tons of double heatsinks which are 3 times more bulky then single heatsink. Where you getting on this extra space from?

[Shadowscythe]

Well, a default Awesome the 8Q (I think it is) can't even have four PPCs because the small laser is in the head
Not enough crit slots there to put a PPC

Edited by Shadowscythe, 12 June 2012 - 10:52 PM.