60 replies to this topic

[Roadbuster]

How about just giving PPCs a 0,5s firing delay?

Gauss and PPC won't fire at the same time and would make it harder to hit the same spot. In addition, the shooting mech would have to get exposed longer and the window for a clear shot while jumping would get smaller too.

[Le Creuset]

Horrace, on 05 August 2013 - 04:44 AM, said:

They already said ppc's were going to get heat increased by +1, that should fix everything. Not that there is anything to fix as the game is near perfect, but it should fix everything anyway. I'm fairly sure they said there is a carefully thought up balance plan that they are steadily and slowly following.

The alternative would be making crazy changes with little thought or logic behind them and we really don't want that do we?

Dude what the hell are you smoking? This game is no where near perfect. Mechs need to be a lot tougher in order to survive this onslaught of PPCs and Gausses.

Go watch the Mechwarrior 5 trailer. It does PPCs justice. In MWO, that Warhammer would have completely ROFL stomped that Atlas's face in due to the fact he had 2 ER PPCs, and from the looks of it the Atlas was using a LBX-10 AC. If we were going off by what PGI says what MechWarrior is, that Atlas would have died almost as quick as that Jenner.

The charge up on the PPC's would be brilliant. I'm tired of seeing the 2x ERPPC + Guass on Victors and Highlanders, and seeing them jumpjet around too. Sorry, but that's just insane.

This game isn't complicated. It's stupid. EVE is complicated, and its player base has risen exponentially, so having a hard to play game isn't the issue. It's the stupidity and the redundancy of playing the game that is turning new players off, because why invest so much time to buy a 'mech just to turn it into a cheesy poptart? Might as well just buy a Xbox 360 and play CoD.

Edited by Le Creuset, 05 August 2013 - 05:16 AM.

[Wolfways]

It's funny that when there's a problem with 2xPPC+Gauss people immediately shout "Nerf PPC's".
There's nothing wrong with PPC's, it's the pinpoint alpha's that are the problem.

I never thought PPC's were OP, but then i used 2xAC10's firing twice as fast and i now consider PPC's to be a fairly weak weapon.

If PPC's are nerfed it's not just 2xPPC+Gauss that gets nerfed, it's any mech that uses PPC's as its main weapons. i.e. Awesome and K2 which are both bad enough as it is.

Edited by Wolfways, 05 August 2013 - 05:20 AM.

[Purlana]

Wolfways, on 05 August 2013 - 05:16 AM, said:

If PPC's are nerfed it's not just 2xPPC+Gauss that gets nerfed, it's any mech that uses PPC's as its main weapons. i.e. Awesome and K2 which are both bad enough as it is.

Why would you use an Awesome as a PPC platform when you have the stalker or highlander?

Edited by Purlana, 05 August 2013 - 05:25 AM.

[POOTYTANGASAUR]

2PPC+GAUSS is not a problem. I can easily disable those builds with my 1ERPPC, 1GAUSS, 4 medium laser Firebrand. I am against anything with 3 or more ppcs and a gauss or 4 or more lone ppcs. 2ppcs and a gauss simply don't do enough damage to scare me. I can crush them in any of my brawlers or any of my deliberate snipers. My 1gauss 3ERLL victor can totally stomp any of those builds and i am pretty hot running with 3ERLL and the heat nerf so don't ***** at me for boating lol. I am having a slight problem with the heat nerf altogether because it makes my swayback very hot lol. It depends on delivery of all of its weapons quickly and then leaving. I do not alpha in my swayback. I fire my hunch then my 3 mediums. Yet since i have to wait half a second and i cant wait that long i get penalized lol.

[Master Q]

C12AZyED, on 05 August 2013 - 04:43 AM, said:

You cannot honestly deny the tiresome over-usage of this build in almost all matches. This build is a min-maxing, powerbuild that takes full advantage of the broken gameplay mechanic of perfect pinpoint convergence.

Fixed that for ya.

[Aim64C]

Wolfways, on 05 August 2013 - 05:16 AM, said:

It's funny that when there's a problem with 2xPPC+Gauss people immediately shout "Nerf PPC's".
There's nothing wrong with PPC's, it's the pinpoint alpha's that are the problem.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...bbd1dfcb83b2ff6

I'll see your "convergence solution" and raise you the Commando Disintegration Ray; Soon to become the Jenner Disintegration Ray once Clan tech is introduced. I'll even be able to throw on three more heatsinks!

Quote

I never thought PPC's were OP, but then i used 2xAC10's firing twice as fast and i now consider PPC's to be a fairly weak weapon.

Each AC10 weighs in at twice that of a PPC and requires ammo. Each AC10 also takes up something like twice the critical space (not counting ammo).

AC10s also have slower travel times and have appreciable ballistic drop.

Quote

If PPC's are nerfed it's not just 2xPPC+Gauss that gets nerfed, it's any mech that uses PPC's as its main weapons. i.e. Awesome and K2 which are both bad enough as it is.

The thing is that this isn't really a nerf:

http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

It gives the weapon system a better niche that allows its damage profile to be justified compared to other energy weapons and its weight against ballistics.

Though my idea predates the ridiculous heat scale implementation that warrants a trial of annihilation.

[Wolfways]

Aim64C, on 05 August 2013 - 05:57 AM, said:

Each AC10 weighs in at twice that of a PPC and requires ammo. Each AC10 also takes up something like twice the critical space (not counting ammo).

Weight isn't an issue, unless you want to overheat all the time.
AC10 12tons + EHS 12tons = 24tons (plus a few tons of ammo)
PPC 7tons + EHS 20tons = 27tons.
So the weight comes out at about the same.

The AC's do use more criticals, but i've never ran out of criticals before...it's always weight that's an issue when i'm putting a mech together.

[Corbon Zackery]

The PPC and the ER PPC are still getting a heat discount that leaves them a broken boat happy weapon.

The heat of a ER PPC is suppose to be 15

The heat of the PPC is suppose to be 10

Right now in game the heat of a ER PPC 12 to 10

The heat of a PPC is 7.5-8.0

So there being boated regardless of the extra heat penalty's for firing 4 or more.

When add in arm lock for near perfect convergence on one spot. Keep in mind the supreme director of the development team is huge Awesome fan so its not going to be changed anytime soon.

[Aim64C]

Wolfways, on 05 August 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

Weight isn't an issue, unless you want to overheat all the time.
AC10 12tons + EHS 12tons = 24tons (plus a few tons of ammo)
PPC 7tons + EHS 20tons = 27tons.
So the weight comes out at about the same.

The AC's do use more criticals, but i've never ran out of criticals before...it's always weight that's an issue when i'm putting a mech together.

Heatsinks only mean so much.

I've run just as well with my 3 ERPPC blackjack as I have with my 2x AC5 blackjack (and various other incarnations of it). Generally speaking, the name of the game is to fire and get back into cover to avoid the return fire. Since this is almost always a substantial multiple of your weapon recycle, heat buildup is manageable if you aren't stupid about it.

Further, if you want to take the extra heat penalty, you can disintegrate a commando in a single shot (and some other mechs if you catch them from the rear).

Ballistics are nice for in-your-face linear charges where you're going to shoot into someone's face and damn the incoming fire. But a decent marksman with PPCs will shear a hole in your armor, drop back into cover, and then clear your internals when you round the corner after him (assuming his team hasn't exploited the 30+ points of armor mysteriously missing from your mech).

Which is why PPCs have always been something of an issue when MechWarrior games go online and demonstrate that 8 PPCs to the face by 2 cooperating mechs renders the heat buildup relatively moot.

[Wolfways]

Well i only use ERPPC's on my K2 but because it's practically impossible to avoid getting into a brawl, and 2xML and 2xMG's just don't cut it the ERPPC's are the main weapon at any range, and my K2 heats up really fast with 20DHS, and if i'm using the ML's the wait for being cool enough to fire the ERPPC's again is long

[Orzorn]

Only an increased base heat and a decreased heat cap will truly address alpha strike issues, unless PGI decides to apply a heat penalty to essentially every weapon combination in the game.

[Aim64C]

Orzorn, on 05 August 2013 - 07:16 AM, said:

Only an increased base heat and a decreased heat cap will truly address alpha strike issues, unless PGI decides to apply a heat penalty to essentially every weapon combination in the game.

Even that isn't going to 'fix' the problem.

It will slew some of the combat towards autocannons and gauss rifles - but that change still leaves PPCs vastly superior to lasers while borking lights that are very dependent upon energy weapons.

So you have to up heat dissipation - which bites you in the rear because you're back to alpha-warrior.

Microsoft and Mektek both tried their damnedest to make the PPC balanced with regards to other weapons. They never really succeeded, other than trying to balance other weapons around the precedent established by the PPC - but that also brought up "alpha warrior" problems. 10 Clan ER Medium Lasers can make quick work of opponents even with the nearly doubled armor and reduced damage (half of tabletop - though all damage is applied as one hitscan) of the game.

After about ten years of that - they weren't much closer to a solution than when they started. Though the end result is better than the nonsense we currently have in MWO.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Aim64C, on 05 August 2013 - 07:34 AM, said:

After about ten years of that - they weren't much closer to a solution than when they started.

Very true.

And the answer is simple - screw the original battletech weight and damage and whatever other values completely and balance the game as a game, not as 30-years-old-tabletop-system incarnation.

[Aim64C]

Dymdr, on 05 August 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

Very true.

And the answer is simple - screw the original battletech weight and damage and whatever other values completely and balance the game as a game, not as 30-years-old-tabletop-system incarnation.

Or... you know... think about alternate ways to bring a weapon into the real-time environment.

The physics behind particle cannons agrees with a pre-fire charge-up period. You've, basically, got a particle accelerator loop that accelerates particles and then shunts them through an open duct once they reach a certain energy.

Maintaining that acceleration within the loop to be ready to shunt the -moment- a switch is depressed would generate massive amounts of heat while the weapon is in 'standby.' Since the stream of particles has been accelerated near the speed of light - there's no need to have a projectile behavior - treat it as a hit-scan and give it a shorter time duration than pulse lasers (and have some front-loading to the damage applied per 'tick').

Instant PPC balance and not a value had to be changed. Lasers become your general-purpose weapons that give immediate response. Autocannons are your 'punch' weapons. The Gauss is still the gauss. The PPC remains a powerful weapon but is not the 'twitch-kill' weapon that supplants autocannons, gauss, and laser alike.

[GODzillaGSPB]

Rengakun, on 05 August 2013 - 04:05 AM, said:

Can't we just drastically reduce the rate of fire for PPCs and increase their heat even further?


I wouldn't want to end up charging up my weapons just like in Warframe...(Those bows and rocket launchers...)

Rengakun, on 05 August 2013 - 04:05 AM, said:

Can't we just drastically reduce the rate of fire for PPCs and increase their heat even further?

I wonder...do people like you think for just one moment "what if I was using that weapon?" or are you simply throw in balance suggestion from the very convenient standpoint of just wanting to never be shot by it again, ever?

YES, making the weapon awful will get your wish fulfilled, people will not use it to shoot at you anymore. Thank god! They will, however, use other weapons. Just prey they don't switch to something you use yourself or you will find yourself in a moral dilemma...

[Mystere]

C12AZyED, on 05 August 2013 - 04:15 AM, said:

Nothing is stopping you from doing that, its just more difficult to do.

Macros to the rescue!

[Khobai]

This idea falls into the same category as ECM and heat penalties. Its too complicated for its own good. And a simpler solution would not only be better but also make the game more enjoyable.

[C12AZyED]

Quote

I wonder...do people like you think for just one moment "what if I was using that weapon?" or are you simply throw in balance suggestion from the very convenient standpoint of just wanting to never be shot by it again, ever?

YES, making the weapon awful will get your wish fulfilled, people will not use it to shoot at you anymore. Thank god! They will, however, use other weapons. Just prey they don't switch to something you use yourself or you will find yourself in a moral dilemma...

I don't agree that adding a charge mechanic to PPCs would make them a useless, underused weapon. Indeed this mechanic would make the weapon much more interesting while retaining its status as one of the best long range sniping weapons in the game. I would go as far as to say that if this feature was implemented, it might not even be necessary to bump at the heat at all, as the unique mechanics would act as the balancing factor of the weapon.

[Crixus316]

GODzillaGSPB, on 05 August 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

I wonder...do people like you think for just one moment "what if I was using that weapon?" or are you simply throw in balance suggestion from the very convenient standpoint of just wanting to never be shot by it again, ever?

YES, making the weapon awful will get your wish fulfilled, people will not use it to shoot at you anymore. Thank god! They will, however, use other weapons. Just prey they don't switch to something you use yourself or you will find yourself in a moral dilemma...

I think the correct question is, Do they currently use PPC, and would they continue to use it.